Well... Against a real moon, and not magus, you pretty much scoop.
However, losing to one card that is only played in two decks is hardley a concern, especially when countermagic is involved.
For a deck that requires such high-casting cost spells, signets would either cut from lands or spells... and this would just not do.
But, besides moon, this deck usually trounces those decks that would usually run it... Pretty much, if they stick moon, they win, if they don't, then you win.
So, its kind of like certain decks against dredge... They either get out relic of progenitus (or whatever gravehate they run), or they lose.
I can conceivably think of running something in place of snare (as it doesn't hit moon or magus), like broken ambitions... But aside from that, the deck requires the manabase to be able to produce all of the colors required, or else it just doesn't work (i.e. more basics actually hurt the deck more than they would help)...
I am willing to accept a loss to all-in-red if that's what it takes to have a fantastic MU against the rest of the field.
I am very happy with the board, having tools against the combo decks, opposing control, and of coarse specific agro.
I am kind of on the fence about the manabase, but the deck is rolling pretty well.
Magus hurts... But you can board in fallouts to combat him, and you have paths and counters... So you do have outs to him.
Explosives has been really good as well (obv), but I may cut one b/c of the amounts of hypergenesis and all-in-red I have been seeing.
Gust may seem odd, but in the MUs where you want it (affinity and tezzeret), it is a total beast and you really don't have to worry about manadenial from them, so the restrictive cost isn't that restrictive.
So... After a very long time of going back and forth with White based landstill... I've slowly realized that that deck just doesn't have what the current format needs.
A card that needs to be in landstill nowadays is definitely pernicious deed... With all the vials, counterbalances, low cc creatures, and the occasional challice, chrome mox, jitte, and manlands... Something needs to be able to give landstill an edge.
I honestly have always hated planeswalkers... Doesn't anyone see them for what they really are?
I'll say it... They are win-more. They cannot change a losing board position (elspeth cannot deal with multiple creatures, and neither can jace)... They are strictly win-conditions that also happen to give additional board advantage once you've already taken control of the board (i.e. win more).
I have been doing a lot of testing lately on MWS (broke my X-Box, this has been eating up my time instead).
I have found that a simple build of BHWC landstill can combat and swiftly defeat all of the current tier 1 decks.
Goblins is the only one that can give a good BHWC landstill pilot trouble nowadays... Merfolk, zoo, and threshold all roll over and die to BHWC.
I cannot show my list right now (preparing for a large tourney, and don't want secret tech to get out)... But, there are several things people need to know about BHWC.
I knew Nick Trudeau and Mike Teresi (the guy who actually created the first incarnations of the deck) when Nick first took the deck and put it in the spotlight at worlds with his T8 placing.
People have forgotten how to play this deck, and forgotten how simple and powerful it can be in the hands of a competent pilot.
Some cards that should NEVER be in a BHWC build:
Elspeth, humilty, and Wrath of god: You already have access to the best mass board control cards in the format (EE and Deed)... Why taint the deck with weaker card choices?
Other cards like wasteland and stifle are things of the past... It used to be that the format was slow enough that we could have the luxury of time... These tempo cards COULD allow us to play an occasional mana-denial game in conjunction with crucible recursion tactics... But, with Cmcs in decks lowering and lowering, a 3 mana artifact is too slow to make it viable in a slower deck such as landstill.
Stifle can work on its own, but wasteland is just not what this deck wants... It want to develop its own manabase and maintain control of the game state with other powerful spells and abilities.
The last card is Tarmogoyf.
WHY ON EARTH would you ever want this guy in landstill?
You already have recurring win-conditions in the form of manlands... And everything hits goyf... explosives, deed... why bother? He doesn't control the game, he is at most a quicker clock or a wall... which isn't needed.
you do relize that to play him, you tap stuff thanthat untaps the nxt turn to give him +1/+1 and anything else you play also boosts him. using sygg adds up for protection and mre boost, you dont have to turn other things sideways. just play stuff or activate abilities, then nxt turn he gets huge boost.
lets say u play him for 3. the next turn he gets +3/+3 from the lands untapping. use syggs ability for 2, he gets protection, then swing. next turn thise 2 lands(or more) untap giving thrasher +2/+2(or more) and use sygg for protection. he's just amazing for the deck.
I don't really get a chance to play too much extended... mostly ptqs and playing online/ with my buddies...
What would be an ideal sideboard for this?
@ comments towards sygg... He is an additional threat, and his protection ability gives an edge against agro in the mid-later game if it goes there... he isn't too slow in the current ext if he is used correctly...
He is also a lightning rod against disruption, they have to kill him ASAP if they ever want to kill your creatures (other than using multiple pieces of removal to kill something, but he is still providing CA in this case).
Wakethrasher isn't too hot, as you only have mutavault to enable it unless you are comfortable w/ manaburning (I am not), and if he is getting big b/c you were turning guys sideways then he is simply winmore anyways.
So.. I guess obvious sideboard changes are:
-4 staff
+4 kataki, war's rage
?
What board would you guys suggest?
@ spell snare...
I sold them when I got rid of my legacy Thrash deck... but I do hate occasionally not being able to do anything while my opp just plays other cc threats/spells...
I know the card is a powerhouse... but I actually think that the snag is the right call in this instance.
My testing hasn't been too extensive (but it has been very promising); here is what I've got so far:
Tron:
Can be tough, but definitely not unwinnable... use your cantrips and don't play too deep into mass removal and you can win the attrition war with the constant stream of cards...
Mutavault and sygg shine here.
Zoo:
Depends on the build... the more agro oriented builds get outclassed by the superior merfolk might (multi-lords = multiple 3/3s or 4/4s... can be brutle)
The more burn based builds will often burn the lords and try to keep us off of our threats while beating us to death w/ a goyf...
I have found that countering/killing their threats and forcing them to use their burn on your dudes wil win the game (we draw a lot of cards, they run out of steam... we win)... sygg is awesome here too.
Faeries:
I have only played two games against faeries so far, so I wil not say anything is conclusive, although the card draw is very solid against them.
Rock:
I don't want to step on toes, but this is a cakewalk for the mostpart... tempo plan works the best against them with their few threats... and our card draw wins us the later game... occasionally they get the whole garruck thing going on, but I can usually just tap down the blockers and kill him anyways.
The most painful matchup was affinity... that was a beating b/c they don't really care about the tempo thing (can play out entire hand anyways) and sygg does nothing...
Path is amazing though, and occasionally I can just get in with a few dudes and win the race w/ tapping by either rej or command... but it is still pretty brutal.
The Power of the merfolk is well known, with their ability to produce ridiculous amounts of tempo (repeal/reejeery/cryptic command)...
We've seen this in standard.
The reason I think it could be powerful in this format is simple:
Versatility
You can disrupt the early game with counters (rune/curse), and get advantage over your opponent w/ powerful spells like cryptic command and recall... Add in the fact that most of these cards cantrip (repeal/adept/ponder/command) and others produce CA (ancestral/command/other crap)...
With 22 threats, and multiple lords being very common, one can use repeals and rejeerys to clear the opponent's blockers to beats in for the win...
I REALLY like how the tempo works, and with all of the draw, we can keep a constant stream of threats and disruption... it is really working great!
It kind of depends on how big they are (i.e. bigger crits or straight agro)... But generally, if you have played the MU enough, and are a general good player, you will be able to pull the MU pretty easily.
2. Run gatekeeper of malikar
3. Run familiar's ruse
4. Profit
Seriously people, and you would only have to run 2-3 to see it's awesome interaction with spellstutter sprite as well.
However, losing to one card that is only played in two decks is hardley a concern, especially when countermagic is involved.
For a deck that requires such high-casting cost spells, signets would either cut from lands or spells... and this would just not do.
But, besides moon, this deck usually trounces those decks that would usually run it... Pretty much, if they stick moon, they win, if they don't, then you win.
So, its kind of like certain decks against dredge... They either get out relic of progenitus (or whatever gravehate they run), or they lose.
I can conceivably think of running something in place of snare (as it doesn't hit moon or magus), like broken ambitions... But aside from that, the deck requires the manabase to be able to produce all of the colors required, or else it just doesn't work (i.e. more basics actually hurt the deck more than they would help)...
I am willing to accept a loss to all-in-red if that's what it takes to have a fantastic MU against the rest of the field.
4 reflecting pool
3 gemstone mine
3 scalding tarn
3 misty rainforest
3 marsh flats
1 watery grave
1 breeding pool
1 overgrown tomb
1 blood crypt
1 hallowed fountain
1 steam vents
2 island
1 swamp
1 plains
creatures//8
2 baneslayer angel
4 mulldrifter
2 sower of temptation (merit lage anyone?)
spells//26
3 cruel ultimatum
2 maelstrom pulse
3 path to exile
4 cryptic command
4 esper charm
4 mana leak
3 spell snare
3 engineered explosives
sideboard//
2 volcanic fallout
2 pithing needle
2 fracturing gust
1 baneslayer angel
1 path to exile
3 extirpate
4 meddling mage
I am very happy with the board, having tools against the combo decks, opposing control, and of coarse specific agro.
I am kind of on the fence about the manabase, but the deck is rolling pretty well.
Magus hurts... But you can board in fallouts to combat him, and you have paths and counters... So you do have outs to him.
Explosives has been really good as well (obv), but I may cut one b/c of the amounts of hypergenesis and all-in-red I have been seeing.
Gust may seem odd, but in the MUs where you want it (affinity and tezzeret), it is a total beast and you really don't have to worry about manadenial from them, so the restrictive cost isn't that restrictive.
Anyone have any thoughts about the deck?
A card that needs to be in landstill nowadays is definitely pernicious deed... With all the vials, counterbalances, low cc creatures, and the occasional challice, chrome mox, jitte, and manlands... Something needs to be able to give landstill an edge.
I honestly have always hated planeswalkers... Doesn't anyone see them for what they really are?
I'll say it... They are win-more. They cannot change a losing board position (elspeth cannot deal with multiple creatures, and neither can jace)... They are strictly win-conditions that also happen to give additional board advantage once you've already taken control of the board (i.e. win more).
I have been doing a lot of testing lately on MWS (broke my X-Box, this has been eating up my time instead).
I have found that a simple build of BHWC landstill can combat and swiftly defeat all of the current tier 1 decks.
Goblins is the only one that can give a good BHWC landstill pilot trouble nowadays... Merfolk, zoo, and threshold all roll over and die to BHWC.
I cannot show my list right now (preparing for a large tourney, and don't want secret tech to get out)... But, there are several things people need to know about BHWC.
I knew Nick Trudeau and Mike Teresi (the guy who actually created the first incarnations of the deck) when Nick first took the deck and put it in the spotlight at worlds with his T8 placing.
People have forgotten how to play this deck, and forgotten how simple and powerful it can be in the hands of a competent pilot.
Some cards that should NEVER be in a BHWC build:
Elspeth, humilty, and Wrath of god: You already have access to the best mass board control cards in the format (EE and Deed)... Why taint the deck with weaker card choices?
Other cards like wasteland and stifle are things of the past... It used to be that the format was slow enough that we could have the luxury of time... These tempo cards COULD allow us to play an occasional mana-denial game in conjunction with crucible recursion tactics... But, with Cmcs in decks lowering and lowering, a 3 mana artifact is too slow to make it viable in a slower deck such as landstill.
Stifle can work on its own, but wasteland is just not what this deck wants... It want to develop its own manabase and maintain control of the game state with other powerful spells and abilities.
The last card is Tarmogoyf.
WHY ON EARTH would you ever want this guy in landstill?
You already have recurring win-conditions in the form of manlands... And everything hits goyf... explosives, deed... why bother? He doesn't control the game, he is at most a quicker clock or a wall... which isn't needed.
I thought you wanted to cut sygg for thrasher...
What would be an ideal sideboard for this?
@ comments towards sygg... He is an additional threat, and his protection ability gives an edge against agro in the mid-later game if it goes there... he isn't too slow in the current ext if he is used correctly...
He is also a lightning rod against disruption, they have to kill him ASAP if they ever want to kill your creatures (other than using multiple pieces of removal to kill something, but he is still providing CA in this case).
Wakethrasher isn't too hot, as you only have mutavault to enable it unless you are comfortable w/ manaburning (I am not), and if he is getting big b/c you were turning guys sideways then he is simply winmore anyways.
So.. I guess obvious sideboard changes are:
-4 staff
+4 kataki, war's rage
?
What board would you guys suggest?
@ spell snare...
I sold them when I got rid of my legacy Thrash deck... but I do hate occasionally not being able to do anything while my opp just plays other cc threats/spells...
I know the card is a powerhouse... but I actually think that the snag is the right call in this instance.
My testing hasn't been too extensive (but it has been very promising); here is what I've got so far:
Tron:
Can be tough, but definitely not unwinnable... use your cantrips and don't play too deep into mass removal and you can win the attrition war with the constant stream of cards...
Mutavault and sygg shine here.
Zoo:
Depends on the build... the more agro oriented builds get outclassed by the superior merfolk might (multi-lords = multiple 3/3s or 4/4s... can be brutle)
The more burn based builds will often burn the lords and try to keep us off of our threats while beating us to death w/ a goyf...
I have found that countering/killing their threats and forcing them to use their burn on your dudes wil win the game (we draw a lot of cards, they run out of steam... we win)... sygg is awesome here too.
Faeries:
I have only played two games against faeries so far, so I wil not say anything is conclusive, although the card draw is very solid against them.
Rock:
I don't want to step on toes, but this is a cakewalk for the mostpart... tempo plan works the best against them with their few threats... and our card draw wins us the later game... occasionally they get the whole garruck thing going on, but I can usually just tap down the blockers and kill him anyways.
The most painful matchup was affinity... that was a beating b/c they don't really care about the tempo thing (can play out entire hand anyways) and sygg does nothing...
Path is amazing though, and occasionally I can just get in with a few dudes and win the race w/ tapping by either rej or command... but it is still pretty brutal.
4 mutavault
4 flooded strand
2 plains
2 hallowed fountain
8 island
creatures//18
4 silvergail adept
4 lord of atlantis
4 merrow rejeery
2 sygg, river guide
4 cursecatcher
spells//22
4 ancestral recall
4 rune snag
4 ponder
3 path to exile
3 repeal
4 cryptic command
sideboard//
4 meddling mage
4 staff of progenitus
3 disenchant
2 vedalken shakles
2 COP: Red
I guess the coolest thing about this deck is that it can function just fine after the rotation:
-4 flooded strand
+2 hallowed fountain
+2 adakar wastes
The Power of the merfolk is well known, with their ability to produce ridiculous amounts of tempo (repeal/reejeery/cryptic command)...
We've seen this in standard.
The reason I think it could be powerful in this format is simple:
Versatility
You can disrupt the early game with counters (rune/curse), and get advantage over your opponent w/ powerful spells like cryptic command and recall... Add in the fact that most of these cards cantrip (repeal/adept/ponder/command) and others produce CA (ancestral/command/other crap)...
With 22 threats, and multiple lords being very common, one can use repeals and rejeerys to clear the opponent's blockers to beats in for the win...
I REALLY like how the tempo works, and with all of the draw, we can keep a constant stream of threats and disruption... it is really working great!
He is a good player, but does not know how to play Legacy at all.
Elf Ball looks like trash though, as a single burn spell can suck for them.
Consign is awesome tempo against doran, but I think I may like snakeform better... I need to test more.
It lets us trade our blossom tokens for their threats, or even go form into inversion...
Who knows, I even tested inside out, which was funny (2 mana kill doran/harbinger, cantrip... but left the threat of collossus).
I found scion into sower to be the main play I make, and pest into mistbind (which is kind of a big deal if you played a second turn bitt.).
Profane is usually the card that ends the game (they get back the fat you worked hard to get rid of, and either lower your life or hit a crit).