MTG Salvation

I agree with the return of provoke and flanking being fantastic.

I am however going to put in my two cents for shroud/hexproof.
I feel weaker nontribalheavy creatures should are fine to have hexproof. Lumberknot starts out small and really needs time to grow.
Stronger/ more tribal creatures should lean towards shroud. Inkwell Leviathan and especially Deadly Insect would have been disgusting if they had been hexproof. Silhana Ledgewalker can be a terrifying card, especially in a tribal elf deck which is why I'd actually be more into cards like it that aren't elves.

I use infect in way too many of my decks, but as far as all players are concerned, I really enjoyed wither.

Quote from Revolutionary »

And, as far as the gates (or even the Fetch lands in Khans Block)
the could appear in the LAND SLOT

]Gatherer thinks otherwise. For the only nonbasics to ever be of land-rarity are the UrzaTron, and that is only for MTGO. Everything else with a land-rarity is a basic land. Land-rarity existed in the Tarkir expansion (just mouse over the symbol that pops up numerous times for any of the nonsnow-basics from that link), which means all of the slow-dual-lands and even the tri-lands were not put in as land rarity, but rather as commons.

You know what, I'm going to tangent for a little bit here. Urza's Mine, Urza's Power Plant, and Urza's Tower were printed as land-rarity...if it wasn't just for MTGO (because forget everything, we are rereleasing Tempest online only, but middle fingers to all you physically-tangible-card players!), I'd be way more excited than I currently am about this; as I'd really like to see a return to Dominaria as a 25th anniversary bit. Tangent complete.

I just feel like if <>=something-frequently-appearing-in-sets-even-after-BFZ-is-out-of-standards, it would have a land-rarity rather than being a common.

Quote from rigeld2 »

Quote from Boyachi »

Quote from rigeld2 »

Quote from Boyachi »

even though there were no traditional basic lands with the non full art format in BFZ

Someone needs to check out the Holiday box and see what kind of lands are in it.
Hint: They aren't full art.

I've been buying packs and fat packs. If they just now wanted to release them, that is suckiness as far as WotC is concerned. "Hey guys, lets spend more money and making new versions of the land that will strip this set of half the reason people are buying it AND advertise on the back of the box that it still has full art!"

It's not actually advertised on the back of the box as having all full art lands.
And it's not my fault you made an incorrect statement without doing 30 seconds of research.

That aside, Plains 254/274 has the same picture (albeit dimensions altered), same number, and same rarity (L), as its full art counterpart. The main thing to catch from that is the "L" rarity. This pushes more to the notion that Wastes won't have a continuation into ALL of the future sets after Oath of the Gatewatch, as its rarity is still common and not land, like the original five basics.

Dragon's Maze guildgates had a C rarity and lived in the Basic Land slot (and iirc had different art from the other sets). So hanging your hat on the rarity probably isn't the best idea.

Let's work backwards: How did the guildgates run in the prerelease of Theros? Born of Gods? Magic 2014? Journey to Nyx? Magic 2015? Dragons of Tarkir? Khans of Tarkir? Fate Reforged? Battle for Zendikar? They didn't run in any of those because they haven't been reprinted outside of Ravnica sets. Which is why it got the "C" rarity instead of "L" rarity, also because of the obvious reason: being a nonbasic land, which Wastes is not.

Now for the easy thing: random unboxing video. This isn't the first video I've seen where it shows the back of the box. Check 1:12 of this video: that is a full art forest.

Quote from rigeld2 »

Quote from Boyachi »

even though there were no traditional basic lands with the non full art format in BFZ

Someone needs to check out the Holiday box and see what kind of lands are in it.
Hint: They aren't full art.

I've been buying packs and fat packs. If they just now wanted to release them, that is suckiness as far as WotC is concerned. "Hey guys, lets spend more money and making new versions of the land that will strip this set of half the reason people are buying it AND advertise on the back of the box that it still has full art!"

That aside, Plains 254/274 has the same picture (albeit dimensions altered), same number, and same rarity (L), as its full art counterpart. The main thing to catch from that is the "L" rarity. This pushes more to the notion that Wastes won't have a continuation into ALL of the future sets after Oath of the Gatewatch, as its rarity is still common and not land, like the original five basics.

There are various possible points:
1) Our Kozilek is fake (which I doubt for various reasons, mostly the next point).
2) There will be a prerelease art and a regular art for Kozilek (which wouldn't be the first time something like this occurs).

One thing that I noticed is that people were talking about how Wastes has a "full-art" version (which is the picture we have) and a "regular" version. I think that this is incorrect for two reasons:
1)This would be a first that they release special looking lands with the regular looking lands, considering expeditions has its own numbering system. Our Wastes picture clearly says 184/184.
2)Wastes has a rarity of common (C), not land (L), or even uncommon (U). While it is vaaaaaguely possible that 183/184 is Wastes in typical form...even though there were no traditional basic lands with the non full art format in BFZ, the fact that Wastes is not (L) rarity tells me that <> isn't here for the long run. Sure, it might return with the Eldrazi, but if Innistrad is Eldrazi free, I don't forsee <> being in the next expansion at all.

Aqueous Form is great with Mistblade Shinobi, as it combines damage, removal, and card advantage all together. It will also aid with flipping Delver of Secrets. I'd trade the tritons out for them.

As long as you do not get rid of the cmc<4 ban.
If I play something like this or this we are talking a turn 3 win if you don't continue that part of the rules.

I'm rather curious what would happen if you kept the cmc ban, but made it so that all spells/abilities have convoke and convoke branches out to typing "permanents" instead of just "creatures" (as far as paying for mana. Obviously one cannot convoke for a planeswalker ability).

The reason that this thread is so long is due to the Great Distortion caused by Kozilek.

Changing "into play" to "enters the battlefield" happened hand in hand with when they started being more picky about the difference between "playing," "casting," and "adding to the stack". I remember the issues that were to be had with Palinchron. For a time it was "if it was cast from your hand, untap seven lands" to prevent the Recurring Nightmare combo. Phasing used to be even more of a nightmare than it currently is.

The phrase "into play" was very misleading and more advanced players knew that. A Millstone played with someone's library. Animate Dead played with people's graveyards. In fact, the only thing that was really out of playing reach back then were things "removed from the game (now: exiled)". "Battlefield" changed that confusion, because yes: we can play with many things, even the opponent's hand with Hypnotic Specter. We can play with the stack with Counterspell. There is a reason why I am listing cards that have been around since Revised: it needed to be changed since back then.

STill, not so much errata.
The eradication of mana burn is errata.
Oracle wording which supercedes card text is errata.
Damage no longer going on the stack is errata.
Getting rid of the "interrupt" card type is errata.
Narrowing down and changing creature types is errata.

Changing "sideways T" to "ninety-degrees-arrow" was not errata. It was cosmetic.

Hence: If they end up changing 1 to look like <>, it will not be errata, it will just be cosmetic.



Putting <> up in a mana cost? That is adding something new to the game, not fixing something that was wrong. Runeclaw Bear is not grizzly bears with errata, it is just better.

For the love of all that is holy everyone please understand:

COSMETIC CHANGES ARE NOT ERRATA.

Please consult a dictionary.

"Errata" and "error" come from the same word: "err". Changing the way something looks isn't fixing it. If your car breaks down, painting it does not make it run properly.

@MgMegaDog As far as colorless only mana costs now? No. Kozilek the Great Distortion and Mirrorpool? Yes.

I've also seen people talking about the possibility that devoid being connected with <> and then complaining about the possibility of <> being used to pay for the color components of devoid spells.

I want to remind everyone about phyrexian mana. Looking at New Phyrexia as a set, the most expensive card on TCGPlayer from it is Karn, Liberated at slightly under $35. The first phyrexian mana card isn't even on the first page and it is Phyrexian Metamorph at slightly under $5. The come Birthing Pod and Surgical Extraction which are both under $4. PM is a good card because it can clone a creature OR an artifact. BP was played in, you guessed it: green decks. I still think that SE is a very undervalued card.
$5 does not make the cost of a game breaking card. I don't need to tell you the obvious craziness of using Moltensteel Dragon(worth fifty cents) in an otherwise monowhite lifegain deck.
Phyrexian mana broke the color pie wide open and was affordable ESPECIALLY in EDH (yes you had to run them in their colors, but mana fixing is no longer an issue) since you could definitely spare the life. Look at it now. NO ONE REALLY CARES. You can't tell me more expensive harder to cast spells will break the color pie moreso by demanding another basic land to cast them. I'm just not seeing that one becoming an issue.
That is IF that turns out to be the case.

Quote from CrazyMatt »

Way I see this...

Waste could produce 1 or <>.
Dryad Arbor could produce 1 or G.
Ghost Quarter could produce 1 or <>.
Underground Sea could produce 1, U, or B.
Battlefield Forge could produce 1, <>, U, or W.
Waste with Blood Moon on the battlefield could produce 1, R, or <>.
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth could produce 1 or B.
Waste with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth on the battlefield could produce 1, B, or <>.

First off Blood Moon calls out NONBASIC lands. Wastes are basic lands. Secondly, you are confusing production and accepted forms of payment.

Imagine costs are as follows:
B is American Money
U is Canadian Money
G is Russian Money
W is the Euro
R is Japanese Money
1 is electronic payments
<> is bitcoins

So we tap a swamp for American money. We can pay for a Duress that only accepts American Cash, however it is old school and does not allow any moneychanging, nor electronic payments; be it credit card or online.

Paying for a Sol ring opens up a bunch of options, we can use money, or charge it on a credit card, or now pay for it online.
The new Kozilek takes 8 paypal payments and two bitcoin payments. The great thing about this is that paypal will instantly do money changing for you, so you can take your money, what ever the currency is, and put it into your paypal account and paypal just makes it happen, doesn't matter what country it is from and hey, if it is already one paypal, even easier for the company. HOWEVER there are two bitcoin payments. For those you need bitcoin mining equipment (Mirrorpools or Wastes) because you can't just go to your bank and get bitcoins, it doesn't work that way. Bitcoins ARE however electronic only, you can't ever hold one, it doesn't work like that.
I know it isn't a perfect example, but it is the best that I can get make.


So no, colored mana cannot pay for <> using a swamp. Think of it as Consume Spirit's spirit twin: <> is paid for by colorless mana and only colorless mana, no colored mana allowed. Call it racism, call it segregation, whatever.

Paying for 1 is paying for generic mana

Producing 1 is adding colorless mana to your mana pool.

1. Ugin was killed by Nicol Bolas before.

2.Bolas has been amassing a lot of power over the years.

3.Yes, they are because he is the "new" planeswalker.

4.Can Bolas "do it"? Well, when two planeswalkers really love each other-
Bolas uses the colors, and people to his will. Conflux is probably the greatest example of this. Can some planeswalkers do this aside from Ugin? The closest one that comes to mind is not Bolas, but Karn, as he made Argentum/Mirrodin/Now-New-Phyrexia. If you consider the cards conflux and more importantly maelstrom nexus, Bolas was behind both of those. Free spells seems like transcending mana colors.

5.This is NOT a simple question to answer. Making a prismatic deck that is beyond casual-power is quite an endeavor as a player of this game. Do I think that Bolas, Ugin, and Karn are well above the power level of Jace, Gideon, and the rest of the main planeswalkers nowadays? Yes. Each time Bolas has clashed with any other planeswalker, he has let them live. His choice. Nicol Bolas actually had to exert himself to kill Ugin. Karn MADE his own plane. Sorin just made Avacyn; Innistrad already existed.
If you think about it cardwise, imagine that every game you played, you had an emblem that said "1:add one mana of any color to your mana pool". Imagine not needing the hassle of fetch lands or additional color fixing during game play. Think about what you would add to your deck while deckbuilding. You could drop a Plains to play a Channel, paying enough life to hard cast and activate Door to Nothingness first turn. That is powerful.
Does it matter storywise? Bolas doesn't seem to be completely evil, he just has his own agenda and if you needed to diagnose him mentally, he would most likely be a sociopath. Could he take out the eldrazi menace? I don't think he could, BUT he was the one to release them. They are pieces on his checkerboard. Bolas also has an agent keeping tabs on the phyrexians. Bolas has great connections, is the most well informed character in the multiverse and currently one of the most powerful. I'm not even sure MaRo knows what Bolas is has as his grand scheme, but you can bet it is something huge.

Since Wastes is a basic land, Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse can grab it.
You are right to bring up expeditions. Why did they print all of those and not have a way to fetch <>? Kinda $#!++y if you ask me, regardless of how <> happens to work.

Quote from rigeld2 »

Quote from Boyachi »

Really? That was cosmetic and nothing more. I mean, considering you are pulling up Judgment cards, I am hoping you've seen a real Black Lotus,Birds of Paradise, or City of Brass. That is like me holding up my flat palmed hand to stop you instead of saying "stop". The message is still clear: it is to stop. Changing "one colorless mana" to 1 does nothing mechanically, only cosmetically.

And if <>=1 on mana sources, how is errata to change not cosmetic?
It certainly isn't a functional change.

My argument there was that it was cosmetic, not errata.

Errata pertains to fixing errors. Changing the way something looks is NOT errata, otherwise just about every basic land is has receives new errata every time a new artist does a picture for said basic land. It does not work that way. Cosmetic does not equal errata.