Mostly because of the consistancy factor... If you need that 2nd copy of a certain card(Like Resounding Thunder, Jund Charm, Pyroclasm, etc) and have no more MD room, then a lot of times you can't afford to run the 1-of Oona's Grace. I think it should be run in every version of the deck(because of personal experience with landflood), but that's just my opinion.
in my MU, jace died cause only haste creatures...or my will
to twoneight_magic->no problem i love the Omega version
Oh ****... I must be in the Faerie thread... sorry about that, guys.
Moving along... You don't have a Condemn for every creature they play, and you can't always wait until turn 4-6 to play Jace... especially against aggro. You need answers NOW. So, I'd rather run a MD answer to things(Bant Charm) rather than hope that Jace doesn't die.
I have actually taken my 2 Jace out of the sideboard recently, because even in the matches that I have sideboarded it in, it seems to die waaaay too often. And the fact that it is only 2 extra cards over 2 turns before you give your opponent a card is huge...
i think oona is better than cloudthresher personally against everything but faeries..
you can run oona/broodmate/angel and then sb in 2 cloudthresher instead of oona and resounding thunder for faeries. (as well as runed halos for mistbind clique)
They serve different purposes, Oona and Cloudthresher... Cloudthresher is good against everything, and doesn't die to nearly anything until it gets at least a swing in and/or kills a creature or 5. Whereas, Oona is a creature that you play out and protect and hope to single-handedly win the game with. They are totally different monsters(literally), and I think the #s are still 2 Thresher and 1 Oona... at least for my metagame(which basically has every tier 1-2 deck show up).
I would also cut the Thirst for Knowledge... it's basically going to be a "Draw 3, discard 2" spell, since you're NEVER going to discard an Explosives or Jitte to it. Also, I think playing Hierarch AND Finks is a bit overkill, since you already have Condemn, Bant Charm, Jitte, and Threads to deal with creatures. If I had to play this deck today, I would play something like this:
I tried Pit Dragon last night, actually, because I was basing a new test version of the deck off of the Legacy version, and it is waaaaay too fragile... not to mention the fact that it requires a lot of mana afterward to deal the same amount of damage that Slogger/Demigod do. Actually, I have been trying a version with Sloggers instead of Demigods, and I have to admit that they're actually doing really well. They kill a lot of the problem creatures the opponent may play(Elves, Cannonist, Sculler, Confidant, etc), especially if they're attempting to block your wincon(Demigod isn't the greatest against Faeries).
I have also been trying Jitte in the deck, and it actually makes sense, because it gives you a lot of game against RDW(the new version that popped up over the weekend) and it solidifies your position against Elves, Zoo, Faeries, and NLU. Turn 2 Jitte on any creature is potentially game-winning against most of the decks in the format(even if it's just on a Spirit Guide or Magus). Definately worth testing further(still have to test against Chapin's Gifts Deck and the other Rock variants that are starting to see play).
This is most likely the version I'll be playing at worlds this weekend(basically Chapin's build with 1 or 2 changes):
You cannot tell me that there's as many ways to get rid of Empyrial Archangel as there are Oona?
Why do people always give the "Theres an answer to this card, so it can't be run" argument? Sure Broodmate gives you 2 guys when you play him, but Oona gives you infinite guys if you untap with her, have counter backup, or have extra mana after you play her... It's just no contest... I would rather run a card that says "I win the game if you don't deal with me" rather than a card that says "If you somehow deal with me, I have a buddy that is still in play."
Actually, I would rather my finisher not die to simple combat damage whether or not you block with it... sure, in the RDW matchup, Archangel is the nuts, but sometimes it is still only a 1-for-1 plus a fog. IOW, it's not a finisher if it dies that easily... But like others have said, it's pointless to argue whether Oona or Broodmate is better for this deck(they both serve different purposes anyway), since you're really only worried about turns 1-6, not turn 7+.
You do understand that Ajani has three counters when he comes into play? Also, planeswalkers can have condemn for your finks, why bother with a blocker?
Yes, I do realize that... You should realize that when you play with cardboard(and don't just spend time theorizing), you'll actually catch on to the fact that they will NEVER hesitate and pass you priority before using Ajani's + ability... especially if you have 3 mana open.
And I couldn't care less if the Planeswalker deck left mana open that turn for Condemn, because that means he didn't play Ajani, and I'm good to go.
You do have a main deck way to get rid Ajani Vengeant it's called resouning thunder.... & Mulldrifter more so than finks, they always tend to have ground blockers in Planeswalker.dec over flying blockers.....
Wait... Resounding Thunder does 4 damage?!? Holy ****... I need to switch to RDW then. The only chance of Planeswalker deck having a blocker for your Turn 3 Finks is if they played first and had a Fertile Ground > Ajani Vengeant > Elspeth. If you're on the play, they can't even do that. You do realize that turn 3 Ajani just about outright beats this deck, right? They have your land locked down so much that if they have ANY other pressure to apply to the board, theres no way for you to deal with all of it AND Ajani. You would know this if you playtested with cardboard... And how do you expect to get a turn 5 Mulldrifter when they're locking down your lands? And when you do swing in with the magical mulldrifter on turn 6, Ajani will still have 6+ counters on it, they'll lock down your mulldrifter, and be on their way to destroying your lands anyway...
And the matchup against Red is actually better without Kithken Finks... the mana intensity of G/W,G/W turn 3 to give you + 2 life for the return of R for Magma Spray just isn't worth it....
Yeah, I know you're just trying to look like a genius with your "If we don't play creatures, they might have dead cards in hand! yay!" philosophy, but if you don't have creatures in their way, they're just going to overrun you. Wrath of God, Bant Charm, and Condemn will only get you so far...
Your main aim is not to get stimga lashered, and this isn't helping turn 3...
Why the bloody hell do you care about Stigma Lasher?!? You don't even run Finks... Against RDW, you win once you get to Cruel Ultimatum(I have never lost in at least 100 games), and in your version you're worried about Stigma Lasher so much that once you play your Ultimatum, you're not going to care about not gaining that 5 life, because you'll have 4 extra slots in your deck to deal with their threats(in place of the Finks).
So, what you're telling me is that the game plan is to stop their turn-2 2/2 guy just so you can maybe gain 5 life on turn 7-11? RDW doesn't care one bit about sacrificing a creature or discarding 3 cards at that point in the game, so your spell basically reads "Draw 3 cards, hopefully return a mulldrifter, possibly gain 5 life."
If you're NOT running finks then you're life will go lower, however on the other hand you'll win more games, but you will go closer to death... but it doesn't matter how much life you've got left if they've got none left
All right, you got me on this one... Having 1 answer to their 1 creature is definitely better than playing a 3-mana 2-in-1 creature package that instantly gains you 2 life. I need to start playing 1-for-1 cards instead of Finks because gaining 2 life and eating up a removal spell(or Lasher/Ram-Gang/Fanatic) is bad, right?
also another major issue with Finks is it can be chumped by bittterblossom tokens all day, and it can't even block them in return, admittedly in the kithkin matchup it's pretty good, but the matchup is realy favourable anyway, so it's just not neccessary!
So, in effect, you gain 2 life and you're killing at least 1 Faerie every turn that would be attacking you... how is that not exactly what you need against Faeries? On the other hand, your matchup with Kithkin isn't dependent on Finks, but if they don't have the Unmake for him, then he buys you SO much time it's not even funny... and even when they do have it, they're using up a turn to kill a creature that's gained you 2 life, so it's no big deal anyway.
It just doesn't cut it in the deck anymore; I'd rather be running more board sweepers or counterspells....
I'm not trying to say you're wrong, but I just think you have the wrong approach towards a lot of things this deck is trying to do in the current metagame.
And to reiterate, I play a version with 4 Finks 3 Condemn 3 Bant Charm 2 Clasm, and my matchup against them is at least 70%... it's getting to where I know all of their plays before we even get to the mid-game. As long as you don't have crappy draws, it's not a difficult matchup AT ALL... but without Finks, it can be a nightmare...
And btw, to those that are advocating O-Ring, it is so much better than Needle/Thunder. I have been playing with 3 of them in my board for a couple weeks now, and they're downright amazing against Plainswalkers/Kith/RDW/BB... plus there are many scenarios where you can bounce your O-Ring right before you're going to Wrath, and then save it for something else later.
This was how the old toast builds played. They rewarded good play skill and punished mistakes. Finks does give you more room for error but playing well more than compensates for the lack of finks.
Personally, I love a deck where one mistake can cost you the game, it's more of a challenge that way. I enjoy winning more when I know I have to play great to get there, than playing sloppy and going oops I win.
As for RDW, it's a bad match up, get over it. Devote some sideboard cards to it and move on. Runed halo, wispmare and primal command get the job done for me.
No, you mean it's a bad matchup without Finks... not that it's a bad matchup. So, what is your pretense for running the deck without Finks? It makes the Fae/RDW/Elves/Kithkin/Mirror matches considerably worse, it gives your deck ZERO room for things like bad draws or mulligans(having extreme playskill is often not enough), and it also gives you less outs to planeswalkers... so why the Finksless builds? Are you guys trying to prove a point by taking a card that everyone plays in the deck and cut it? I have tested a million different variations of this deck, and in the current T2 metagame, 4 Finks is a must...
I haven't lost a match in over a month to a deck other than Planeswalkers/Kelpie Control, and Finks is one of the reasons why. I beat Faeries almost every week, and theres no way you're going to do that consistantly when you play things like Fulminator or more spells over Finks... try it out, it's not gonna work. And what are you going to do against RW Lark decks when you have no maindeck way to get rid of Ajani Vengeant?
I would too... except for the fact that I could never actually cast it on turn 1. That's the reason I cut Thoughtseize from my SB after 1 day of testing it... And killing Chameleon Colossus is pretty much the reason you run Condemn(and the fact that it's instant-speed, so you can force them to pump mana into Figure first, or wait until the very last moment to make sure you kill the biggest threat).
Its still incredibly inefficient. You have Oblivion ring to deal with enchantment/artifacts. Among Other things.
Although it is a creature. It's still conditional. And there IS a chance you wont have the specs to carry out a needed ability.
The only reasonable solution I could see to your argument is the inclusion of Krosan Grip instead, and even in that case I would rather have a 2/2 body to attack with when there is nothing on the board to destroy... and in a deck with 12 fetchlands and almost every RAV dual printed, how is it tough to get 2 plains and/or 2 mountains?
Thoughtseize is really unneeded... it just doesn't do enough. If you need discard, play Mind Shatter, which is better with Memory Plunder anyway.
Also, if you wanted to go with a more creature-centric version of 5cc, I would recommend a couple of Mannequins as they help a lot against Faeries and help you win counter-wars against the mirror. Might also be worth testing. And btw, I tried Trawl, and it just doesn't work... I would much rather play Counsel of the Soratami, literally.
I actually agree with you on the "mulldrifter should never be cut," and I also think that way about Kitchen Finks, but I'm at kinda a crossroads with this deck. I have been playing the same version(+/- 4 or 5 cards) for 2+ months now, and it's starting to get to where I know exactly how the games are going to play out after the first 4 turns. I guess playing different cards like Trawl is my attempt at keeping the deck "fresh"... i dunno... either way, it's fun to try out different approaches of the same strategy time and again.
Oh ****... I must be in the Faerie thread... sorry about that, guys.
Moving along... You don't have a Condemn for every creature they play, and you can't always wait until turn 4-6 to play Jace... especially against aggro. You need answers NOW. So, I'd rather run a MD answer to things(Bant Charm) rather than hope that Jace doesn't die.
They serve different purposes, Oona and Cloudthresher... Cloudthresher is good against everything, and doesn't die to nearly anything until it gets at least a swing in and/or kills a creature or 5. Whereas, Oona is a creature that you play out and protect and hope to single-handedly win the game with. They are totally different monsters(literally), and I think the #s are still 2 Thresher and 1 Oona... at least for my metagame(which basically has every tier 1-2 deck show up).
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Island
3 Breeding Pool
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
1 Polluted Delta
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Mystic Enforcer
Spells(26):
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Ponder
3 Mana Leak
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Bant Charm
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Engineered Explosives
I tried Pit Dragon last night, actually, because I was basing a new test version of the deck off of the Legacy version, and it is waaaaay too fragile... not to mention the fact that it requires a lot of mana afterward to deal the same amount of damage that Slogger/Demigod do. Actually, I have been trying a version with Sloggers instead of Demigods, and I have to admit that they're actually doing really well. They kill a lot of the problem creatures the opponent may play(Elves, Cannonist, Sculler, Confidant, etc), especially if they're attempting to block your wincon(Demigod isn't the greatest against Faeries).
I have also been trying Jitte in the deck, and it actually makes sense, because it gives you a lot of game against RDW(the new version that popped up over the weekend) and it solidifies your position against Elves, Zoo, Faeries, and NLU. Turn 2 Jitte on any creature is potentially game-winning against most of the decks in the format(even if it's just on a Spirit Guide or Magus). Definately worth testing further(still have to test against Chapin's Gifts Deck and the other Rock variants that are starting to see play).
This is most likely the version I'll be playing at worlds this weekend(basically Chapin's build with 1 or 2 changes):
16 Mountain
2 Gemstone Caverns
Creatures(16):
4 Demigod of Revenge
4 Deus of Calamity
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Desperate Ritual
3 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
4 Shattering Spree
4 Empty the Warrens
3 Starstorm
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Trinisphere
Why do people always give the "Theres an answer to this card, so it can't be run" argument? Sure Broodmate gives you 2 guys when you play him, but Oona gives you infinite guys if you untap with her, have counter backup, or have extra mana after you play her... It's just no contest... I would rather run a card that says "I win the game if you don't deal with me" rather than a card that says "If you somehow deal with me, I have a buddy that is still in play."
Actually, I would rather my finisher not die to simple combat damage whether or not you block with it... sure, in the RDW matchup, Archangel is the nuts, but sometimes it is still only a 1-for-1 plus a fog. IOW, it's not a finisher if it dies that easily... But like others have said, it's pointless to argue whether Oona or Broodmate is better for this deck(they both serve different purposes anyway), since you're really only worried about turns 1-6, not turn 7+.
Yes, I do realize that... You should realize that when you play with cardboard(and don't just spend time theorizing), you'll actually catch on to the fact that they will NEVER hesitate and pass you priority before using Ajani's + ability... especially if you have 3 mana open.
And I couldn't care less if the Planeswalker deck left mana open that turn for Condemn, because that means he didn't play Ajani, and I'm good to go.
Wait... Resounding Thunder does 4 damage?!? Holy ****... I need to switch to RDW then. The only chance of Planeswalker deck having a blocker for your Turn 3 Finks is if they played first and had a Fertile Ground > Ajani Vengeant > Elspeth. If you're on the play, they can't even do that. You do realize that turn 3 Ajani just about outright beats this deck, right? They have your land locked down so much that if they have ANY other pressure to apply to the board, theres no way for you to deal with all of it AND Ajani. You would know this if you playtested with cardboard... And how do you expect to get a turn 5 Mulldrifter when they're locking down your lands? And when you do swing in with the magical mulldrifter on turn 6, Ajani will still have 6+ counters on it, they'll lock down your mulldrifter, and be on their way to destroying your lands anyway...
Yeah, I know you're just trying to look like a genius with your "If we don't play creatures, they might have dead cards in hand! yay!" philosophy, but if you don't have creatures in their way, they're just going to overrun you. Wrath of God, Bant Charm, and Condemn will only get you so far...
Why the bloody hell do you care about Stigma Lasher?!? You don't even run Finks... Against RDW, you win once you get to Cruel Ultimatum(I have never lost in at least 100 games), and in your version you're worried about Stigma Lasher so much that once you play your Ultimatum, you're not going to care about not gaining that 5 life, because you'll have 4 extra slots in your deck to deal with their threats(in place of the Finks).
So, what you're telling me is that the game plan is to stop their turn-2 2/2 guy just so you can maybe gain 5 life on turn 7-11? RDW doesn't care one bit about sacrificing a creature or discarding 3 cards at that point in the game, so your spell basically reads "Draw 3 cards, hopefully return a mulldrifter, possibly gain 5 life."
All right, you got me on this one... Having 1 answer to their 1 creature is definitely better than playing a 3-mana 2-in-1 creature package that instantly gains you 2 life. I need to start playing 1-for-1 cards instead of Finks because gaining 2 life and eating up a removal spell(or Lasher/Ram-Gang/Fanatic) is bad, right?
So, in effect, you gain 2 life and you're killing at least 1 Faerie every turn that would be attacking you... how is that not exactly what you need against Faeries? On the other hand, your matchup with Kithkin isn't dependent on Finks, but if they don't have the Unmake for him, then he buys you SO much time it's not even funny... and even when they do have it, they're using up a turn to kill a creature that's gained you 2 life, so it's no big deal anyway.
I'm not trying to say you're wrong, but I just think you have the wrong approach towards a lot of things this deck is trying to do in the current metagame.
And to reiterate, I play a version with 4 Finks 3 Condemn 3 Bant Charm 2 Clasm, and my matchup against them is at least 70%... it's getting to where I know all of their plays before we even get to the mid-game. As long as you don't have crappy draws, it's not a difficult matchup AT ALL... but without Finks, it can be a nightmare...
And btw, to those that are advocating O-Ring, it is so much better than Needle/Thunder. I have been playing with 3 of them in my board for a couple weeks now, and they're downright amazing against Plainswalkers/Kith/RDW/BB... plus there are many scenarios where you can bounce your O-Ring right before you're going to Wrath, and then save it for something else later.
No, you mean it's a bad matchup without Finks... not that it's a bad matchup. So, what is your pretense for running the deck without Finks? It makes the Fae/RDW/Elves/Kithkin/Mirror matches considerably worse, it gives your deck ZERO room for things like bad draws or mulligans(having extreme playskill is often not enough), and it also gives you less outs to planeswalkers... so why the Finksless builds? Are you guys trying to prove a point by taking a card that everyone plays in the deck and cut it? I have tested a million different variations of this deck, and in the current T2 metagame, 4 Finks is a must...
I haven't lost a match in over a month to a deck other than Planeswalkers/Kelpie Control, and Finks is one of the reasons why. I beat Faeries almost every week, and theres no way you're going to do that consistantly when you play things like Fulminator or more spells over Finks... try it out, it's not gonna work. And what are you going to do against RW Lark decks when you have no maindeck way to get rid of Ajani Vengeant?
I would too... except for the fact that I could never actually cast it on turn 1. That's the reason I cut Thoughtseize from my SB after 1 day of testing it... And killing Chameleon Colossus is pretty much the reason you run Condemn(and the fact that it's instant-speed, so you can force them to pump mana into Figure first, or wait until the very last moment to make sure you kill the biggest threat).
The only reasonable solution I could see to your argument is the inclusion of Krosan Grip instead, and even in that case I would rather have a 2/2 body to attack with when there is nothing on the board to destroy... and in a deck with 12 fetchlands and almost every RAV dual printed, how is it tough to get 2 plains and/or 2 mountains?
Thoughtseize is really unneeded... it just doesn't do enough. If you need discard, play Mind Shatter, which is better with Memory Plunder anyway.
Also, if you wanted to go with a more creature-centric version of 5cc, I would recommend a couple of Mannequins as they help a lot against Faeries and help you win counter-wars against the mirror. Might also be worth testing. And btw, I tried Trawl, and it just doesn't work... I would much rather play Counsel of the Soratami, literally.
Yeah, it doesn't have to be at my backdoor... I would just rather it be less than 1000 miles away...