Which events if you don't mind me asking? Didn't see much in the way of modern for the northeast really unless your around new york?
Also Like the languish idea Ace, its something I was actually considering today then saw your post I support at least testing it it seems fairly resonable but damnation might just be better albeit more expensive
Valid points on the tec edge for sure, and i guess just your meta in general. I tend to see more aggro than I do jund/jeskai style stuff so perhaps thats why my perception is off a bit on your build, if your meta is more of the former I can understand a bit more. I feel like liege is a really good idea out of the board, has it been panning out for you in testing? I still don't get how the deck flips thing in the ice early on though thing just seems really clunky in this shell to me. And the 2 revs stabilizing your life total doesn't seem to realistic to me, perhaps against jund or what not since you often can make it to turn 6 + against that matchup but i feel the super aggro stuff like burn puts such pressure on you that rev is nigh dead in the matchup as you wont often be at turn 6+ where u can rev to regain at least a bolt's worth of life back (not to mention rev actively hurts you getting to turn 6+ when u see it early). Again this is probably a meta thing but I'm just curious and trying to start some discussion since this thread has been almost dead lately haha
Round 1: W 2-0 vs Nahiri Jeskai
* This was the same person I played in my previous report, and once again Game 1 took a ridiculously long time (43 minutes). I missed my 4th land drop for ~3 turns and still managed to claw my way back into the game, dealing with multiple Nahiris and eventually grinding out his hand while I had a full grip and multiple Colonnades. Game 2, however, only took 5 minutes. He fetched / shocked himself to 14 life and I responded by flipping a Thing in the Ice extremely quickly, followed up by 2 quick swings for the game. TitI finally proved itself to be undoubtedly worthy of its inclusion in the deck.
Round 2: W 2-0 vs Amulet Titan
* My opponent was playing the new version of the Summer Bloom deck with Azusa. He was able to get his ramp on pretty quickly, but I had counters and Paths to make sure Primeval Titan / Hive Mind stayed off the board. The main deck Tectonic Edges were incredibly useful in this matchup.
Round 3: W 2-0 vs Naya Burn
* Game 1, he literally had me at 3 life facing down an Exquisite Firecraft, so obviously I won that game No, seriously, I used Snapcaster Mage to flash back a Sphinx's Revelation for x=2, went to 5 life, and then took Firecraft down to 1. My Ancestral Vision then resolved, I drew a bunch of cards, held up a bunch of counterspells, and eventually gained some more life back using Ojutai's Command until eventually I was able to apply pressure and kill him. Game 2, I countered almost every burn spell he played and dealt with every creature he played. Timely Reinforcements was just back breaking; he was at 16 with Keldon Marauders on board while I was at 15. Believe I ended up flipping TitI and killing him with that.
Thing in the Ice definitely does some real work in the deck in conjunction with Ancestral Vision. Whereas before we needed Wall of Omens to help keep our hand full, Vision removes this requirement and lets us play a 2 drop that's much more aggressive. The list is pretty much exactly where I want it right now, wouldn't change any numbers of anything at the current time. It's ridiculously good at grinding games.
I'm not trying to be a hater but honestly this deck looks super clunky. I can see why its good in grindy games with 2 sphinx's rev, 3 av and 2 elspeth and a jace aot. The question is why are all these grindy cards in our deck, I have to imagine it just makes our aggro matchups go from very favorable to even or perhaps losing game one. There is absoloutely no reason for 3 AV 2 rev and a jace aot. Those are 6 slots for cards that do nothing for a very good time until they eventually draw u more cards. Between those, 2 6 drops in elspeth (which is essentially a mulligan when u open it) and 26 lands I'm just not sure how this deck sustains itself in the early game. Do we just mulligan every hand without path or spell snare? Are we just always on the play? Like i'm really confused. I think the idea is pretty interesting and is similar to biavia's shell a bit with jace vyrn's prodigy and ojutais command but I dislike the thing in the ice over the wall in the omens at least the way you have the deck constructed. You mention flipping thing in the ice early in your report, how is it getting flipped early exactly? Theres no cantrips like serum visions or probe or whatever and really there just appears to be no proactive spells you can cast to flip it that easily outside of path. Again I'm not trying to hate, I am glad you are seeing sucess with the deck i'm just baffled about the construction and wanted some explanations. Tec edge over GQ is also interesting to me, and I feel the mana base might want more fetchlands or some source of untapped blue mana turn 1 for av/snare? Like perhaps even seachrome coast or something. Maybe thats too deep though. Let me know whatcha think
I dislike the Nahiri gameplan, so I'm not going to play with it. I don't think it's always the best plan, but one very similar to Kiki-Resto, albeit, not as instant. You can't randomly win from a good draw with Nahiri; the win essentially has suspend 2. It provides a proactive out, but Kiki-Resto still seems better to me. I prefer playing the normal list without either combos.
I remember u saying you disliked AV when it first got unbanned at first too, do u just dislike change? I'm really not even trying to be a smart ass I just notice you tend to like the very traditional way this deck has been played. I don't think thats bad I just wonder why you feel that way
Gideon Jura is miles ahead of of token gideon in a lot of ways. One just has to facedown some lingering souls, or an x3 to realize his true power. He's a 2-3 turn fog that forces unfavorable attacks, kills tapped things and finally animates and turns a quick clock. Token gideon is a slower clock that can go wide with 2/2 tokens, he's basically only a wincon.
Ally is a faster clock, he comes down a turn earlier and hits for one more because you are hitting with a 2/2 and a 5/5.
Thank youuuu lol people don't realize this. And for matchups where you super need that clock ala combo he comes down earlier meaning u tap out a turn earlier make it more likely they haven't assembled/can't combo yet. I'm actually a big proponent of ally of zendikar in general over the big gideon. I just feel he does something more valuable in general except for certain matchups like infect where big gideon just ends the game usually with his + making it impossible for them to win. Vs Eldrazi i found that big gideon can be a touch slow sometimes and that even if he pluses a smasher u don't see coming or w.e. can still take him out.
His -2 is great and all but usually results in him dying instantly the next turn as they rarely just have 1 threat on board by your turn 5. In general neither gideon is really amazing vs eldrazi i don't think slow planeswalkers is really how you beat them, usually if you have time to play either and put them to use something has already gone right in that game for you (they opened slow/u had the wrath/removal etc) and in that situation either is probably fine. That being said everytime i tested ally of zendikar the fact that he just comes down a turn earlier was so huge in fast matchups like eldrazi or in combo matchups (which this deck still struggles with no doubt but i feel ally gives some small % points over big gideon) that i decided to just run ally of zendikar over big gideon entirely.
Actually just got back tonight from a GPT at my local shop, never posted a report on here but figured i'd give it a try. We had around 30 people I think and 4 rounds of swiss so not the biggest tourney or meaningful etc but still something to learn from, its a little long so i do applogize if its too much. I played the Jace/Ojutai's command list that I have tuned to my liking, heres the deck: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/jace-uw-1/
R1: Temur Delver
I've played this guy before so I knew what he was on and generally feel like delver is a good matchup for us but goyf can definitely be an issue.
G1: neither of us mull, he keeps a threat light hand with only a stormchaser mage and a lot of counter spells and bolts, I take chip shots for a lot of turns and he bolts my jace and counters my snapcaster which would have gotten serum i believe. I eventually am able to resolve detention sphere through mana leak to get rid of his stormchaser, after that he gets a goyf into play since I'm tapped out. But the following turn he is running a little low on cards and I manage to ojutai's command my jace back at eot. Then on my turn flip jace and ojutai's command snapcaster back which gets visions which leads to a path for goyf and he is out of threats. He didn't draw the hottest this game, a few earlier goyfs or pyromancers woulda been game.
G2: This game he has T1 delver and i go colonnade pass, he doesn't hit luckily for me. I play wall of omens and he doesn't hit again, this happens for a third turn, he then plays a pyromancer attacks and bolts my wall. I get to ojutai's command it back and draw a card so basically draw 2 with a wall (not bad), I believe wall takes another bolt he gets another token or something and I get him with verdict, then I land a gideon and my tokens trade with his tarmogoyf he stuck for a few turns. I draw d sphere for goyf and have negate backup but he has double counterspell. The next turn I draw snap for a path or some removal and that does it.
R2: Eldrazi
Get Paired down here to a guy who I know is on UR eldrazi.
G1:I lose the roll which sucks but he doesn't open the fastest. He goes like turn 1 fetchland go. I go collonade go. Then he goes eye of ugin endless one for two and a vile agregate I believe. So this turn I have the option of playing wall of omens or passing with path up for tks/smasher and I pass with path up, he plays land + tks and I path in response. He sees my hand of now like ojutai's command, gideon, dismember, wall and some lands. He takes the dismember and the following turn I go wall pass. He plays a skyspwaner which is annoying but not the end of the world and i take a hit for 4 from the vile, he ingest a verdict which really sucked. I stick gideon next turn and make a dude and pass. I want to chump with my wall so my ojutai's has more value and I do so this turn on the vile. He ends up trading the endless one for 2 with my token which i felt was odd. Next turn I ojutai's command another vile aggregate and get my wall, i go down to like 6 from skyspawner and draw serum visions which lets me put a flip jace on top. I keep making tokens with gideon to prevent a possible top deck smasher from killing me. I flip jace and eventually durdle my way to victory from jace + gideon (deck takes a long time to win, tbh I also play not the fastest so it isn't a great combo -_-. I didn't go to time tonight tho so that was nice.)
G2: He draws pretty well with turn 2 tks but I have the dismember luckily and he takes my flip jace out of my hand over just like ojutai's command and a lone missionary/wall of omens. I play wall first before the missonary and draw into anothre missonary, he plays a 2nd tks next turn and takes my detention sphere which i also drew for turn i believe (maybe not tho can't remember this game that well) anyway I play out missonary take a hit for 4 he plays a vile and i play my other missonary and he attacks? I get to double block with missonarys and draw a card which is lit. I counter something with ojutais command and get the game to go long. A key turn comes when he hits me with a 3rd tks and sees i have big elspeth and snapcaster for like dismember/visions/command or something and he takes snap since I'm still a turn or two away from elspeth. I rip a supreme verdict which is unreal strong. He rips a 4th tks tho off the top lol and takes elsepth. I think i take a hit but play a flip jace and get value that way. I have enough lands to use my collonades now and get him to attack and animate and trade with his tks (idk if i woulda won this game if he just didn't attk with tks lol but i guess i was also under no pressure if he plays more conservative so who knows?) I get him to 5 he fetches eot to 4 and then draws drowner of hope. I draw cryptic command the next turn tho to deal with that and animate colo and kill him after a long hard game.
R3: R/G Tron
Ugh wtf. I don't think this version of UW can ever beat tron. we have no clock and little meaningful interaction. I feel like tron is really bad in this meta so i didnt much prepare for it or expect it.
G1: I keep some hand thats decent vs any creature deck with like snap dismember, jace and some lands. I see hes on tron when he goes first and goes tower map so I basically knew I lost right then lol. I end up drawing a mana leak and jam snap eot on my 2nd turn to provide a clock. The following turn i get to play visions and hold up mana leak which is cool. I scry a ghost quarter on top and some random thing on bottom. I mana leak karn the following turn and then the turn after i play jace and ghost quarter a tron piece so I'm like ok maybe just maybe we can do this. But I get pyroclasm'd and then he finds tron again and casts ugin so game.
G2: I side in like lone missonary to provide a clock lol also of course bring in the 2 mind censors the clique and the stony silences as well as the 1 negate. I'm on the play with turn 2 lone missonary and 2 mana leaks and a ghost quarter so it looks decent. I think i hit him down to 10 with missonary, mana leak a few things, gq him but eventually just fall to the inevitability of tron as i never really draw much else to increase the clock and counter spells vs ulamog isn't too great. So I get scraped 2-0 as I'd expect vs tron.
R4: Elves
This is a friend of mine Joey and we get deck checked at the start of the round. While this deck check is happening we check standings and see we are high enough up to just draw into top 8 so we just do that lol.
Top 8: Elves (Not the same guy)
Play vs a different elves guy who is a local and is pretty cool, I find out later his spicy tech is that he is running chord and craterhoof behemoth???
G1: I'm on the play which is huge in this matchup, I mana leak the first archdruid and have a wall out to block so things are looking amazing. I even stick a gideon turn 4 and start making tokens while he plays out some like dwynens elites and stuff. I think on his turn 5 or 6 he goes absoloutely off with like heritage druids and nettle sentinels and nykthos, He has enough mana to collected company, witness and get it back and then play it again. his two cocos get him ezuri and hella dudes so he can regen all his stuff on his board to protect from verdict. Luckily I have snapcaster for path at end of turn for ezuri, he responds by chording for spellskite and making me path that. But in doing so he uses a lot of his elves and can't tap them to add 3 anymore and regen stuff which lets me verdict all his things on the following turn and win easily. Apparently I should have died because he could get craterhoof off chord or something that turn and just didn't see it until it was too late. Idk but I was happy to pick up g1. I think i would have certainly lost had he either A. Killed me somehow or B. played conservative and held back the chord + coco from witness in hand.
G2: He starts hot with a buncha mana dorks and an archdruid, I path the archdruid and get a jace into play. I have verdict but am light on mana, I end up getting stuck on 3 lands for quite a few turns and he develops a huge board which has no "lords" per say but still threatens lethal quite soon. I draw snapcaster and have the easiest most standard line ever of snapcaster blocking something and then pathing my own snap to get the 4th land and verdict and probably just win. I am a dumb ass and do all this combat math and determine if i block his nettle sentinel and path the other 1 i will live to see 2 draw steps instead of 1 (when in reality i didn't need any draws! just path the snap and win lol.) so I do that and brick on both drawsteps and lose as I deserve to. I guess we each punted a game to the other so it evens out? Not good play here and I was kinda tilted I had to settle down for g3.
G3: I open solid with like 2x path, ojutais command, wall of omens, and 3 lands. I lead on colonade and cycle wall which blocks his worse creatures. I have path for lords so i'm feeling decent but he has a turn 3 or 4 choke which makes this game super interesting and really hard really fast. I opened colonade two islands and a plains so half my lands are being threatened by choke at this point. I draw mana leak and keep that up using my 2 reusable lands but I'm taking 3 a turn from his 1/1 guys hitting me while wall blocks the biggest guy a 2/2 each turn. This continues for a while and i draw a hallowed fountain which i sandbag as i don't wanna put it into play tapped. I get fortunate and hit 2 flooded strands to get plains and then the biggest card of all: mystic gate!!! the absoloute best land in the deck vs choke most likely since it means u can fetch plains and still cast ***** like cryptic. I end up drawing jace, keeping his lords off the table/countering collected company and eventually finding a d sphere for choke. After i get choke off the board i'm able to freely use my mana and start looping jace + ojutai's command for sick value. I wrath him to oblivion and win a slow grindy match with colonnade.
Top 4: Jund
Jund is a matchup I've typically struggled a lot with mostly I feel due to deckbuilding. I always build my decks to have a lot of early interaction as I feel most of the time if the game goes long we just win vs ***** like burn and don't actually need to be playing these haymakers that are so good vs a midrange deck like jund. So in a way my past builds have been the "smaller" deck if u will. This deck however has the jace/ojutais interaction which is amazing and actually can answer liliana 1 for 1 with d sphere so i feel better about it.
G1: he opens discard into confidant but I top a path luckily lol and then snap the path (he didn't take snap since it had no good targets) to get a 2nd confidant. He lands liliana and gets the game to his liliana on 4 with no cards in hand vs my 5 lands 2 of which are colonnade so I can draw land and kill lili and then we are both top decking. Instead I draw gideon for turn and windmill him lol my opp draws 2 inquisitions in a row and I draw a land and am able to take it easily with colo + gideon.
G2: This game was ultra interesting and if this report wasn't so long already i'd elaborate more. Essentially i have a 2 lander on the draw but a buncha good stuff and wall to cycle so i keep it. I get land screwed for like 2 turns but have dismember for confidant so i'm not getting run over. He sticks lili, i have the choice to discard some 4 cmc spells, detention sphere or big elspeth. I decide that jund can't beat elspeth so i'll wait to see if i can't hope to stick her at some point and discard an excess verdict. I top deck serum visions into a land and scry two more lands to the top!! Super lucky here lmao but anyway i keep holding onto elsepth and play the whole game so that i can resolve her. even cryptic a thoughseize and bounce a raging ravine so that i didn't have to use my ghost quarter which woulda taken me to 4 lands. I stick elspeth and she takes it home. Glad i had her in the board.
Finals: Tron again
G1: my opp mulls to 6 and keeps what has to be one of the worst 6s i've seen. Like leads on ghost quarter go. Idk what is going on. He plays grove next turn and then stirrings which gets 1 piece so i'm like ok maybe this was reasonable? idk. He has another stirrings i mana leak it. I stick gideon. He sticks o stone. I d sphere the stone and crack. He gets tron somehow like raw maybe over the next two turns and karns my ass good so if i can't win that one idk what one i can win.
G2: I keep a hand with disenchant for a map, 2 lands, lone missonary and mind censor and clique for clock/disruption. Never draw the 3rd land and end up getting ulamog'd on turn 4 for absoloute game.
So I lost to probably my worst matchup twice which is whatever. Overall I think the deck is pretty good has lots of strong interactions but also just takes a long time to win so I really need to play faster with it which probably comes with practice. If you have questions bout the list or deck or suggestions they are all appreciated thanks!
Didn't say the jace list couldn't beat eldrazi i said ojutai himself matches up poorly as a blocker which is something that had already been talked about really but figured i'd bring it up again. With 6 1 mana removals its not unreal to have one of them to stave off eldrazi til you hit 4 mana and can take over. Deck seems reasonable in that matchup but just not sure i like the less early interaction in general, need to play with it more.
And Keezy I think he was saying he would board in extraction alongside ghostquarter in the tron or eldrazi matchup to kill of their big mana land base or at least part of it. I can feel this vs tron but vs eldrazi i'm not sure i want a card that doesn't affect the board like extraction as they can still hard cast a lot of their thought knot seers such and beat u down that way.
Negate almost always has some target, is strong vs combo decks/burn and can protect jace and ojutai so it doesn't seem too bad. I wonder why arashin cleric over lone missonary in the side tho. I'd imagine u just would rather have 2 power to trade with things and gain 1 extra life. Not sure if im missing something tho.
Edit: oops somehow didn't reply to the comment about negate i guess, my bad. I like that jace list's look i feel like there isn't too much early game stuff tho which concerns me a bit.
Yeah the curve on the deck is extremely high and you'd have to pay me to sleeve up cards like dismember, prarie stream and pact of negation, can't see why people like that list.
Yeah i've been play testing it a bit the past two nights online and its really fun to play like when you win you really win but i do feel that its very weak in the early game compared to builds with things like spell snare. If your jace lives you might be ok but then again theres no garuntee your opponent doesn't already have a ravager + plating coming at you. I really enjoy the jace + ojutai's command loops/interactions and its really really strong when u survive that long but modern has gotten so fast im not sure its likely. Dragonlord Ojutai itself has felt strong but i've only faced non eldrazi decks and i keep thinking what if they just had a 4/4 or 5/5 which i now have to trade with? seems like ass. On that note I do feel dismember is totally reasonable main board as a 1/2 of. Prarie stream has largely felt unnecessary and bad so i agree there. As for pact of negation its pretty eh. I understand why its in the deck like the idea is to be able to tap out for ojutai or go ham with a sphinx's revelation (which idk why there is 2 of btw. I mean looting it with jace in the early game makes sense but this is assuming jace lives and in that case why are we not running 4 jaces to loot these late game cards away?) then still be able to counter whatever is threatening. And it has happened a few times which is cute but man i opened that thing twice as well and without jace the card is stone dead, not something i'm the biggest fan of but i can understand the logic. My major problem as i hinted when i touched on revelation is that the entire deck seems to be based on or at least signifigantly better when we see jace and when he lives. So why are we not running 4 of it? Overall I think the deck is interesting and pretty amazing when u get to the point in the game it wants to be at. I just don't know how we get there. Perhaps there is some balance that can be attained by taking the jace/ojutai shell and shifting it as the win condition in more traditional uw with early interaction. Not sure that this is better than say just a 4 cmc planeswalker or whatever your win conditions were before really.
[quote from="YWQMD »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/561035-uw-control?comment=2040"]As someone considering making the jump to this deck (since it seems fairly solid against Eldrazi), how necessary is Jace, Vryn's Prodigy? Realizing that I own every piece aside from that.
You can certainly play this deck without him, most builds i've seen that have been moderately sucessful have run without him. take a look at the previous pages and you will see many different takes on this archetype all of which have their strengths/weaknesses in different metas. Like just the standard wall of omens/finks/resto core is pretty strong already in a lot of matchups so you can definitely do it without jace. That being said I don't think jace is bad by any stretch, he does make bolt a lot better against us which is pretty annoying but if he does live being able to loot away extra lands or what not and possibly blank their creature or flashback a path or whatever is nice.
Negate almost always has some target, is strong vs combo decks/burn and can protect jace and ojutai so it doesn't seem too bad. I wonder why arashin cleric over lone missonary in the side tho. I'd imagine u just would rather have 2 power to trade with things and gain 1 extra life. Not sure if im missing something tho.
Edit: oops somehow didn't reply to the comment about negate i guess, my bad. I like that jace list's look i feel like there isn't too much early game stuff tho which concerns me a bit.
I just feel like snap angel and finks do pressure fine enough that i'd rather have counter spells main board as opposed to two clique. Clique and counter spells both serve to stop the combo decks, granted clique doesn't guaranteed do so but it does provide a clock too which i agree is valuable and is better in its own right. I think the trade off is worth it for keeping the deck bolt proof so to speak. I think clique in the side might be correct, I agree it should be present somewhere though.
In regards to GQ, I've seen a lot of builds run splits of GQ and tec edge which i've been experimenting with so it might not be as relevant as you say, however that being said you can still run SoD without mind censor to accomplish the same thing albeit less often (although perhaps with tec edge it won't come up as much so it will be fine). Paying the extra 2 mana in response to a path just to blank their search does seem quite bad though early game which is when u care most about path searching probably.
Just got home from GP Atlana, didn't do as well as i had hoped day 1 in the main event but I did manage to do a modern challenge day 2 with a fair amount of people and ended up going 3-1 figured i'd share a quick report as i was pretty happy with the deck and how it played as well as offer some thoughts on the trends you guys are discussing like mind censor and spreading seas. Anyway:
R1 Grixis Twin
G1: I am on the draw, he serums t1 with watery grave so i assume grixis twin but get thrown off when i have to spell snare a jace turn 2 (thought it might be delve.dek) we go land pass for a bit and eventually he slams an eot exarch which i mana leak he remands targeting exarch (sign of a good player lol) and i have negate so we stall out a bit more. I eventually verdict his tasigur and jace after he taps out for them and the advantage is too much.
G2: On the draw again, forced to mull here and i draw like 4 paths this game lol i path his threats but he eventually ramps into tefferi lmao and remands my path then resolves blood moon on his turn so i lose.
G3: I keep a questionable hand i think it was snare, colo, 2 island, plains, path and sphinx's rev. I end up drawing decent off the top and grinding a bit, he resolves blood moon at some point which is pretty meh but then he starts beating me down with an exarch and a clique. I draw a fair amount of lands from this point, and need 2nd white source for rev or a potential verdict off top as well as the other blues for cryptic so i celestial purge blood moon at end of his turn. He kohligan's me i think and then I try to rev like 3 times it gets remanded all 3 lol then inquisitioned away. I only have a wall of omens blocking so im getting low here and he has clique + exarch about to swing for lethal, i let him enter combat (prolly shoulda upkeeped the cryptic to avoid him potentially drawing a counter) and cast cryptic which eats yet another remand and i die. Was a good match tho and the guy was very good he beat some pros main event apparently and won the other modern challenge so eh. I really dislike the grixis twin matchup compared to UR because delve threats and kholigans are pretty good vs us.
R2: Don't remember what i faced this round tbh:(
R3: Suicide zoo
G1: Mull to 5 on the play, im ****edddd or so i thought lol. He shocks himself down a lot and even bolts himself to try to make death shadow huge, i condem it. then snap caster condem his 2nd one a turn later. He really cant recover and i stabilize.
G2: Wall of omens early and curve out pretty well here into counters + resto angel. Don't see a path til late but it was fine as long as u are blocking this decks threats their pump spells arent too relevant.
R4: Infect
G1: I'm on the play with 2 glacial fortress for lands but i keep. He has vines for my path on glistner elf and pendlehaven pumped it prior and ***** so i end up taking 9 infect by turn 3. However past this i draw a wall of omens into serum visions to stabilize and end up grinding it out hardd in a long game where i can never get touched once lol.
G2: Tec Edges force him to stay on 3 lands and he tries to win with inkmoth nexus and pendlehaven and a noble hierarch pumping which ends up doing 8 infect but i end up drawing resto angel to block and flash wall (although the resto didn't trade since pendle + exalted makes inkmoth a 3-4) into another resto, i get time to stablilize and slam a spell skite at some point to which he conceeds since i can also animate colonade each turn to block.
All in all I beat the creature decks which is what this deck is good at doing and even vs twin i had a fair shot all 3 games i perhaps shouldn't side out verdicts against grixis? Seems like if they play a deleve threat + an exarch or what have you verdict is a blow out. But if they actually keep in the twin combo verdict isnt really doing much to help there. Idk i like the twin matchup and play it a lot but only the UR twin so im still not too sure. As for aven mind censor i really dislike it in this deck main board. I know "dies to bolt" isn't a great argument but i feel like yuyya constructed his deck the way he did so as to completely skirt around bolt and simply turn it into a burn spell which typically isn't too relevant for us. I don't like clique for a similar reason. Blanking bolts vs twin has provided me such value over time and its not like mind censor is broken in every matchup either, a 2/1 flash flyer isn't doing too much on its own. I'd rather run more counter spells or removal personally. Clique's ability is universally relevant so perhaps it is worth the slot and opening us up to bolt? But not entirely sure on this. Also been really liking serum visions, have to try temple sometime although those two together seem like a no-no.
yeah having cryptic up and then being able to wrath the turn after is usually game and i really wish it was as simple as pathing the master all the time but ugh man it feels like you just always need to have more paths lol. Explosives is probably really good I need to test it in the side. I was mostly looking for confirmation that its actually pretty hard sometimes and that I'm not crazy for thinking that. I do have 4 wraths in my 75 but don't play detention sphere anymore as its been pretty bad for me lately but perhaps its worth siding it just for merfolk? Idk if that or explosives would be better though.
So whats your guys game plan vs merfolk? I've been having a real issue vs them lately, been doing well in other match ups though even getting there vs tron a decent bit. Like merfolk with a resolved vial just feels impossible to beat. Its really hard to keep island walk turned off the whole game with spreading seas and verdict is great and all but it doesnt help much if they can kill you first -_-. Also holding verdict for value is tough because of master of waves off vial almost always being a kill.
I gotcha what I'm saying is that sun titan is pretty meh vs control and mid range matchups as it dies to any removal (granted it does get some value upon entering) compared to elspeth whom you yourself ackowledge is great in those matchups. And vs aggro they are pretty comparable imo as elspeth provides inf blockers and deals with any big threats they might have. Typically they don't have creatures power 4 or greater but still an option, usually just spamming 1/1s is actually too much for them though. Regardless if you've lived to cast your 6 drop vs burn or whatever your probably in good shape. So why main titan over her if u were gonna play a bomb? I actually like sun titan better, its one of my favorite cards but it just seems worse objectively.
Also Like the languish idea Ace, its something I was actually considering today then saw your post I support at least testing it it seems fairly resonable but damnation might just be better albeit more expensive
I'm not trying to be a hater but honestly this deck looks super clunky. I can see why its good in grindy games with 2 sphinx's rev, 3 av and 2 elspeth and a jace aot. The question is why are all these grindy cards in our deck, I have to imagine it just makes our aggro matchups go from very favorable to even or perhaps losing game one. There is absoloutely no reason for 3 AV 2 rev and a jace aot. Those are 6 slots for cards that do nothing for a very good time until they eventually draw u more cards. Between those, 2 6 drops in elspeth (which is essentially a mulligan when u open it) and 26 lands I'm just not sure how this deck sustains itself in the early game. Do we just mulligan every hand without path or spell snare? Are we just always on the play? Like i'm really confused. I think the idea is pretty interesting and is similar to biavia's shell a bit with jace vyrn's prodigy and ojutais command but I dislike the thing in the ice over the wall in the omens at least the way you have the deck constructed. You mention flipping thing in the ice early in your report, how is it getting flipped early exactly? Theres no cantrips like serum visions or probe or whatever and really there just appears to be no proactive spells you can cast to flip it that easily outside of path. Again I'm not trying to hate, I am glad you are seeing sucess with the deck i'm just baffled about the construction and wanted some explanations. Tec edge over GQ is also interesting to me, and I feel the mana base might want more fetchlands or some source of untapped blue mana turn 1 for av/snare? Like perhaps even seachrome coast or something. Maybe thats too deep though. Let me know whatcha think
I remember u saying you disliked AV when it first got unbanned at first too, do u just dislike change? I'm really not even trying to be a smart ass I just notice you tend to like the very traditional way this deck has been played. I don't think thats bad I just wonder why you feel that way
Thank youuuu lol people don't realize this. And for matchups where you super need that clock ala combo he comes down earlier meaning u tap out a turn earlier make it more likely they haven't assembled/can't combo yet. I'm actually a big proponent of ally of zendikar in general over the big gideon. I just feel he does something more valuable in general except for certain matchups like infect where big gideon just ends the game usually with his + making it impossible for them to win. Vs Eldrazi i found that big gideon can be a touch slow sometimes and that even if he pluses a smasher u don't see coming or w.e. can still take him out.
His -2 is great and all but usually results in him dying instantly the next turn as they rarely just have 1 threat on board by your turn 5. In general neither gideon is really amazing vs eldrazi i don't think slow planeswalkers is really how you beat them, usually if you have time to play either and put them to use something has already gone right in that game for you (they opened slow/u had the wrath/removal etc) and in that situation either is probably fine. That being said everytime i tested ally of zendikar the fact that he just comes down a turn earlier was so huge in fast matchups like eldrazi or in combo matchups (which this deck still struggles with no doubt but i feel ally gives some small % points over big gideon) that i decided to just run ally of zendikar over big gideon entirely.
R1: Temur Delver
I've played this guy before so I knew what he was on and generally feel like delver is a good matchup for us but goyf can definitely be an issue.
G1: neither of us mull, he keeps a threat light hand with only a stormchaser mage and a lot of counter spells and bolts, I take chip shots for a lot of turns and he bolts my jace and counters my snapcaster which would have gotten serum i believe. I eventually am able to resolve detention sphere through mana leak to get rid of his stormchaser, after that he gets a goyf into play since I'm tapped out. But the following turn he is running a little low on cards and I manage to ojutai's command my jace back at eot. Then on my turn flip jace and ojutai's command snapcaster back which gets visions which leads to a path for goyf and he is out of threats. He didn't draw the hottest this game, a few earlier goyfs or pyromancers woulda been game.
G2: This game he has T1 delver and i go colonnade pass, he doesn't hit luckily for me. I play wall of omens and he doesn't hit again, this happens for a third turn, he then plays a pyromancer attacks and bolts my wall. I get to ojutai's command it back and draw a card so basically draw 2 with a wall (not bad), I believe wall takes another bolt he gets another token or something and I get him with verdict, then I land a gideon and my tokens trade with his tarmogoyf he stuck for a few turns. I draw d sphere for goyf and have negate backup but he has double counterspell. The next turn I draw snap for a path or some removal and that does it.
R2: Eldrazi
Get Paired down here to a guy who I know is on UR eldrazi.
G1:I lose the roll which sucks but he doesn't open the fastest. He goes like turn 1 fetchland go. I go collonade go. Then he goes eye of ugin endless one for two and a vile agregate I believe. So this turn I have the option of playing wall of omens or passing with path up for tks/smasher and I pass with path up, he plays land + tks and I path in response. He sees my hand of now like ojutai's command, gideon, dismember, wall and some lands. He takes the dismember and the following turn I go wall pass. He plays a skyspwaner which is annoying but not the end of the world and i take a hit for 4 from the vile, he ingest a verdict which really sucked. I stick gideon next turn and make a dude and pass. I want to chump with my wall so my ojutai's has more value and I do so this turn on the vile. He ends up trading the endless one for 2 with my token which i felt was odd. Next turn I ojutai's command another vile aggregate and get my wall, i go down to like 6 from skyspawner and draw serum visions which lets me put a flip jace on top. I keep making tokens with gideon to prevent a possible top deck smasher from killing me. I flip jace and eventually durdle my way to victory from jace + gideon (deck takes a long time to win, tbh I also play not the fastest so it isn't a great combo -_-. I didn't go to time tonight tho so that was nice.)
G2: He draws pretty well with turn 2 tks but I have the dismember luckily and he takes my flip jace out of my hand over just like ojutai's command and a lone missionary/wall of omens. I play wall first before the missonary and draw into anothre missonary, he plays a 2nd tks next turn and takes my detention sphere which i also drew for turn i believe (maybe not tho can't remember this game that well) anyway I play out missonary take a hit for 4 he plays a vile and i play my other missonary and he attacks? I get to double block with missonarys and draw a card which is lit. I counter something with ojutais command and get the game to go long. A key turn comes when he hits me with a 3rd tks and sees i have big elspeth and snapcaster for like dismember/visions/command or something and he takes snap since I'm still a turn or two away from elspeth. I rip a supreme verdict which is unreal strong. He rips a 4th tks tho off the top lol and takes elsepth. I think i take a hit but play a flip jace and get value that way. I have enough lands to use my collonades now and get him to attack and animate and trade with his tks (idk if i woulda won this game if he just didn't attk with tks lol but i guess i was also under no pressure if he plays more conservative so who knows?) I get him to 5 he fetches eot to 4 and then draws drowner of hope. I draw cryptic command the next turn tho to deal with that and animate colo and kill him after a long hard game.
R3: R/G Tron
Ugh wtf. I don't think this version of UW can ever beat tron. we have no clock and little meaningful interaction. I feel like tron is really bad in this meta so i didnt much prepare for it or expect it.
G1: I keep some hand thats decent vs any creature deck with like snap dismember, jace and some lands. I see hes on tron when he goes first and goes tower map so I basically knew I lost right then lol. I end up drawing a mana leak and jam snap eot on my 2nd turn to provide a clock. The following turn i get to play visions and hold up mana leak which is cool. I scry a ghost quarter on top and some random thing on bottom. I mana leak karn the following turn and then the turn after i play jace and ghost quarter a tron piece so I'm like ok maybe just maybe we can do this. But I get pyroclasm'd and then he finds tron again and casts ugin so game.
G2: I side in like lone missonary to provide a clock lol also of course bring in the 2 mind censors the clique and the stony silences as well as the 1 negate. I'm on the play with turn 2 lone missonary and 2 mana leaks and a ghost quarter so it looks decent. I think i hit him down to 10 with missonary, mana leak a few things, gq him but eventually just fall to the inevitability of tron as i never really draw much else to increase the clock and counter spells vs ulamog isn't too great. So I get scraped 2-0 as I'd expect vs tron.
R4: Elves
This is a friend of mine Joey and we get deck checked at the start of the round. While this deck check is happening we check standings and see we are high enough up to just draw into top 8 so we just do that lol.
Top 8: Elves (Not the same guy)
Play vs a different elves guy who is a local and is pretty cool, I find out later his spicy tech is that he is running chord and craterhoof behemoth???
G1: I'm on the play which is huge in this matchup, I mana leak the first archdruid and have a wall out to block so things are looking amazing. I even stick a gideon turn 4 and start making tokens while he plays out some like dwynens elites and stuff. I think on his turn 5 or 6 he goes absoloutely off with like heritage druids and nettle sentinels and nykthos, He has enough mana to collected company, witness and get it back and then play it again. his two cocos get him ezuri and hella dudes so he can regen all his stuff on his board to protect from verdict. Luckily I have snapcaster for path at end of turn for ezuri, he responds by chording for spellskite and making me path that. But in doing so he uses a lot of his elves and can't tap them to add 3 anymore and regen stuff which lets me verdict all his things on the following turn and win easily. Apparently I should have died because he could get craterhoof off chord or something that turn and just didn't see it until it was too late. Idk but I was happy to pick up g1. I think i would have certainly lost had he either A. Killed me somehow or B. played conservative and held back the chord + coco from witness in hand.
G2: He starts hot with a buncha mana dorks and an archdruid, I path the archdruid and get a jace into play. I have verdict but am light on mana, I end up getting stuck on 3 lands for quite a few turns and he develops a huge board which has no "lords" per say but still threatens lethal quite soon. I draw snapcaster and have the easiest most standard line ever of snapcaster blocking something and then pathing my own snap to get the 4th land and verdict and probably just win. I am a dumb ass and do all this combat math and determine if i block his nettle sentinel and path the other 1 i will live to see 2 draw steps instead of 1 (when in reality i didn't need any draws! just path the snap and win lol.) so I do that and brick on both drawsteps and lose as I deserve to. I guess we each punted a game to the other so it evens out? Not good play here and I was kinda tilted I had to settle down for g3.
G3: I open solid with like 2x path, ojutais command, wall of omens, and 3 lands. I lead on colonade and cycle wall which blocks his worse creatures. I have path for lords so i'm feeling decent but he has a turn 3 or 4 choke which makes this game super interesting and really hard really fast. I opened colonade two islands and a plains so half my lands are being threatened by choke at this point. I draw mana leak and keep that up using my 2 reusable lands but I'm taking 3 a turn from his 1/1 guys hitting me while wall blocks the biggest guy a 2/2 each turn. This continues for a while and i draw a hallowed fountain which i sandbag as i don't wanna put it into play tapped. I get fortunate and hit 2 flooded strands to get plains and then the biggest card of all: mystic gate!!! the absoloute best land in the deck vs choke most likely since it means u can fetch plains and still cast ***** like cryptic. I end up drawing jace, keeping his lords off the table/countering collected company and eventually finding a d sphere for choke. After i get choke off the board i'm able to freely use my mana and start looping jace + ojutai's command for sick value. I wrath him to oblivion and win a slow grindy match with colonnade.
Top 4: Jund
Jund is a matchup I've typically struggled a lot with mostly I feel due to deckbuilding. I always build my decks to have a lot of early interaction as I feel most of the time if the game goes long we just win vs ***** like burn and don't actually need to be playing these haymakers that are so good vs a midrange deck like jund. So in a way my past builds have been the "smaller" deck if u will. This deck however has the jace/ojutais interaction which is amazing and actually can answer liliana 1 for 1 with d sphere so i feel better about it.
G1: he opens discard into confidant but I top a path luckily lol and then snap the path (he didn't take snap since it had no good targets) to get a 2nd confidant. He lands liliana and gets the game to his liliana on 4 with no cards in hand vs my 5 lands 2 of which are colonnade so I can draw land and kill lili and then we are both top decking. Instead I draw gideon for turn and windmill him lol my opp draws 2 inquisitions in a row and I draw a land and am able to take it easily with colo + gideon.
G2: This game was ultra interesting and if this report wasn't so long already i'd elaborate more. Essentially i have a 2 lander on the draw but a buncha good stuff and wall to cycle so i keep it. I get land screwed for like 2 turns but have dismember for confidant so i'm not getting run over. He sticks lili, i have the choice to discard some 4 cmc spells, detention sphere or big elspeth. I decide that jund can't beat elspeth so i'll wait to see if i can't hope to stick her at some point and discard an excess verdict. I top deck serum visions into a land and scry two more lands to the top!! Super lucky here lmao but anyway i keep holding onto elsepth and play the whole game so that i can resolve her. even cryptic a thoughseize and bounce a raging ravine so that i didn't have to use my ghost quarter which woulda taken me to 4 lands. I stick elspeth and she takes it home. Glad i had her in the board.
Finals: Tron again
G1: my opp mulls to 6 and keeps what has to be one of the worst 6s i've seen. Like leads on ghost quarter go. Idk what is going on. He plays grove next turn and then stirrings which gets 1 piece so i'm like ok maybe this was reasonable? idk. He has another stirrings i mana leak it. I stick gideon. He sticks o stone. I d sphere the stone and crack. He gets tron somehow like raw maybe over the next two turns and karns my ass good so if i can't win that one idk what one i can win.
G2: I keep a hand with disenchant for a map, 2 lands, lone missonary and mind censor and clique for clock/disruption. Never draw the 3rd land and end up getting ulamog'd on turn 4 for absoloute game.
So I lost to probably my worst matchup twice which is whatever. Overall I think the deck is pretty good has lots of strong interactions but also just takes a long time to win so I really need to play faster with it which probably comes with practice. If you have questions bout the list or deck or suggestions they are all appreciated thanks!
And Keezy I think he was saying he would board in extraction alongside ghostquarter in the tron or eldrazi matchup to kill of their big mana land base or at least part of it. I can feel this vs tron but vs eldrazi i'm not sure i want a card that doesn't affect the board like extraction as they can still hard cast a lot of their thought knot seers such and beat u down that way.
Yeah i've been play testing it a bit the past two nights online and its really fun to play like when you win you really win but i do feel that its very weak in the early game compared to builds with things like spell snare. If your jace lives you might be ok but then again theres no garuntee your opponent doesn't already have a ravager + plating coming at you. I really enjoy the jace + ojutai's command loops/interactions and its really really strong when u survive that long but modern has gotten so fast im not sure its likely. Dragonlord Ojutai itself has felt strong but i've only faced non eldrazi decks and i keep thinking what if they just had a 4/4 or 5/5 which i now have to trade with? seems like ass. On that note I do feel dismember is totally reasonable main board as a 1/2 of. Prarie stream has largely felt unnecessary and bad so i agree there. As for pact of negation its pretty eh. I understand why its in the deck like the idea is to be able to tap out for ojutai or go ham with a sphinx's revelation (which idk why there is 2 of btw. I mean looting it with jace in the early game makes sense but this is assuming jace lives and in that case why are we not running 4 jaces to loot these late game cards away?) then still be able to counter whatever is threatening. And it has happened a few times which is cute but man i opened that thing twice as well and without jace the card is stone dead, not something i'm the biggest fan of but i can understand the logic. My major problem as i hinted when i touched on revelation is that the entire deck seems to be based on or at least signifigantly better when we see jace and when he lives. So why are we not running 4 of it? Overall I think the deck is interesting and pretty amazing when u get to the point in the game it wants to be at. I just don't know how we get there. Perhaps there is some balance that can be attained by taking the jace/ojutai shell and shifting it as the win condition in more traditional uw with early interaction. Not sure that this is better than say just a 4 cmc planeswalker or whatever your win conditions were before really.
You can certainly play this deck without him, most builds i've seen that have been moderately sucessful have run without him. take a look at the previous pages and you will see many different takes on this archetype all of which have their strengths/weaknesses in different metas. Like just the standard wall of omens/finks/resto core is pretty strong already in a lot of matchups so you can definitely do it without jace. That being said I don't think jace is bad by any stretch, he does make bolt a lot better against us which is pretty annoying but if he does live being able to loot away extra lands or what not and possibly blank their creature or flashback a path or whatever is nice.
Edit: oops somehow didn't reply to the comment about negate i guess, my bad. I like that jace list's look i feel like there isn't too much early game stuff tho which concerns me a bit.
In regards to GQ, I've seen a lot of builds run splits of GQ and tec edge which i've been experimenting with so it might not be as relevant as you say, however that being said you can still run SoD without mind censor to accomplish the same thing albeit less often (although perhaps with tec edge it won't come up as much so it will be fine). Paying the extra 2 mana in response to a path just to blank their search does seem quite bad though early game which is when u care most about path searching probably.
R1 Grixis Twin
G1: I am on the draw, he serums t1 with watery grave so i assume grixis twin but get thrown off when i have to spell snare a jace turn 2 (thought it might be delve.dek) we go land pass for a bit and eventually he slams an eot exarch which i mana leak he remands targeting exarch (sign of a good player lol) and i have negate so we stall out a bit more. I eventually verdict his tasigur and jace after he taps out for them and the advantage is too much.
G2: On the draw again, forced to mull here and i draw like 4 paths this game lol i path his threats but he eventually ramps into tefferi lmao and remands my path then resolves blood moon on his turn so i lose.
G3: I keep a questionable hand i think it was snare, colo, 2 island, plains, path and sphinx's rev. I end up drawing decent off the top and grinding a bit, he resolves blood moon at some point which is pretty meh but then he starts beating me down with an exarch and a clique. I draw a fair amount of lands from this point, and need 2nd white source for rev or a potential verdict off top as well as the other blues for cryptic so i celestial purge blood moon at end of his turn. He kohligan's me i think and then I try to rev like 3 times it gets remanded all 3 lol then inquisitioned away. I only have a wall of omens blocking so im getting low here and he has clique + exarch about to swing for lethal, i let him enter combat (prolly shoulda upkeeped the cryptic to avoid him potentially drawing a counter) and cast cryptic which eats yet another remand and i die. Was a good match tho and the guy was very good he beat some pros main event apparently and won the other modern challenge so eh. I really dislike the grixis twin matchup compared to UR because delve threats and kholigans are pretty good vs us.
R2: Don't remember what i faced this round tbh:(
R3: Suicide zoo
G1: Mull to 5 on the play, im ****edddd or so i thought lol. He shocks himself down a lot and even bolts himself to try to make death shadow huge, i condem it. then snap caster condem his 2nd one a turn later. He really cant recover and i stabilize.
G2: Wall of omens early and curve out pretty well here into counters + resto angel. Don't see a path til late but it was fine as long as u are blocking this decks threats their pump spells arent too relevant.
R4: Infect
G1: I'm on the play with 2 glacial fortress for lands but i keep. He has vines for my path on glistner elf and pendlehaven pumped it prior and ***** so i end up taking 9 infect by turn 3. However past this i draw a wall of omens into serum visions to stabilize and end up grinding it out hardd in a long game where i can never get touched once lol.
G2: Tec Edges force him to stay on 3 lands and he tries to win with inkmoth nexus and pendlehaven and a noble hierarch pumping which ends up doing 8 infect but i end up drawing resto angel to block and flash wall (although the resto didn't trade since pendle + exalted makes inkmoth a 3-4) into another resto, i get time to stablilize and slam a spell skite at some point to which he conceeds since i can also animate colonade each turn to block.
All in all I beat the creature decks which is what this deck is good at doing and even vs twin i had a fair shot all 3 games i perhaps shouldn't side out verdicts against grixis? Seems like if they play a deleve threat + an exarch or what have you verdict is a blow out. But if they actually keep in the twin combo verdict isnt really doing much to help there. Idk i like the twin matchup and play it a lot but only the UR twin so im still not too sure. As for aven mind censor i really dislike it in this deck main board. I know "dies to bolt" isn't a great argument but i feel like yuyya constructed his deck the way he did so as to completely skirt around bolt and simply turn it into a burn spell which typically isn't too relevant for us. I don't like clique for a similar reason. Blanking bolts vs twin has provided me such value over time and its not like mind censor is broken in every matchup either, a 2/1 flash flyer isn't doing too much on its own. I'd rather run more counter spells or removal personally. Clique's ability is universally relevant so perhaps it is worth the slot and opening us up to bolt? But not entirely sure on this. Also been really liking serum visions, have to try temple sometime although those two together seem like a no-no.