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  • 3

    posted a message on Bolt Bend
    Just a reminder, this can be used to counter a counterspell if you change the counterspell's target to Bolt Bend.
    Posted in: Bolt Bend
  • 1

    posted a message on Arixmethes, Slumbering Isle - Do Not Disturb
    Well this is a cool deck. I've been working on a Tatyova, Benthic Druid idea that also breaks symmetry of the "return all nonland permanent" cards like Devastation Tide. I should probably consider Toothy as well.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
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    posted a message on Chainer — In the Darkness of Dreams
    It can be quite funny how endeavors like this unfold.

    I've been wanting to write finish writing this retrospective for a couple weeks now. I'd been thinking at length about the direction I wanted to go with Chainer from here and decided to reread the thread. Then I decided to reread my original sources of inspiration (other chainer threads/decks — listed in the following spoiler).
    In the process of reading I was reminded of some nice interactions I'd forgotten and lots of good wisdom about card choice, deck design, and a bit of game theory. I'll need to go back through them at some point to pull out those wonderful nuggets for quoting in my OP as that progresses. But I realized, even though I started my Chainer deck originally from a stance of avoiding resource denial (stax), that I am continually inching into that territory now — not out of mimicry but finally understanding why it works and why that's good for MBC.

    I also didn't understand packages at the time and had removed the pacts and discard effects but had left in pieces like Sangromancer that fed off of those, which were later removed because they "didn't do anything useful". Harvester of Souls and Ogre Slumlord were similarly nerfed by the lack of pact effects because since they trigger on "another nontoken" they're much more effective if you're making 3 opponent creatures die along with your own Slum Reaper than if you're just sacrificing Bloodghast once or twice on your turn. Oh, those early days when I was running stuff like Vampire Nighthawk and Nezumi Graverobber.

    Now I'm adding Plaguecrafter and Sheoldred, and have been overall rethinking the deck's pieces. I'm still sticking to my design principles in the OP but loosening the per-card 'flavor' theme, as well as loosening my qualms about stax, to allow for more cohesive functionality throughout. I'm not suddenly going to run a ton of discard or pacts, but will carefully introduce some new pieces and figure out what I find useful and what I'm comfortable with.

    The folks I play with know this is my "mean" deck, that it doesn't get used very often, and they basically told me it's a deck worth un-nerfing (paraphrased — i.e., permission to be "mean"). Their decks and their play are getting stronger and I just need to make sure I don't over-do it to the point of steamrolling without chance for interaction — choosing pieces that are more on the reactive side should help in that regard. Words of Waste + Geth's Grimoire would be hilariously disgusting, but will have to wait.

    I've been trying to think in terms of switching out cards that are less cohesive or are durdly for cards that have a variety of use with other cards. Examples of my re-evaluations:
    • The deck is a toolbox/engine and very likely doesn't need much in the way of it's own beaters when it can steal them, unless that body is very useful aside from its evasion/power/toughness. For example, if Doom Whisperer's Surveil 2 isn't worth the card slot given other options for self-mill, then it's otherwise just a big evasive body. Wurmcoil Engine, on the other hand brings a decent set of support to the deck that in its ability to kill things, gain life, and provide 3 separate bodies to sacrifice. Another example, equipment like Lashwrithe can turn anything into a beater (and starts off as one), but doesn't provide any evasion so is only useful on already-evasive bodies. Loxodon Warhammer is a better equipment for the deck for the lifelink and the trample while still turning almost anything into a beater — my evasive bodies will still be evasive, but trample helps with others. Removing the less synergistic bodies makes a bit more room for tools, or redundancy on some tools that are currently one-of.
    • Dark Deal is getting cut. It had potential for dumping hands when I wasn't using much discard, but in looking at it again I can't even loop it with XHD as a win condition, where Memory Jar can do that.
    • Fallen Ideal is a sacrifice outlet that's hard to get rid of, but aside from its flying that's pretty much all it is. The power pump isn't even important because I'm not going to activate that enough to be significant without tokens, and those are a board presence of their own. This is one of the better examples of a card that doesn't offer much to the other cards.
    • I very well could do without Burnished Hart because I can just use somebody else's ramp creatures (even Fertilid is possible with a Fellwar Stone/Phyrexian Altar/Pitiless Plunderer). Also cutting Solemn Simulacrum will take some testing, though. But the math for cutting Hart:
      • Burnished Hart - BBB+3L to reanimate. 3 to sac for two lands tapped.
      • Wayfarer's Bauble and Myr Retriever - BBB+3L to reanimate the Retriever, sac it to get Bauble back, 3 to cast it and crack it for one land tapped.
      • However, Retriever can be used to get back my other important artifacts where Hart does nothing else but ramp, and whatever I sac it to is likely getting me some good value on the side. Bauble also can ramp me earlier from the hand than Simulacrum or Hart.
    • Did I totally miss/ignore Dross Harvester before because of the 4 life trigger? I love that this and Pitiless Plunderer trigger off eldrazi tokens. I wouldn't even need lifelink on Pestilence Demon for this to net me a good amount of life should a lot of creatures happen to die at the same time for some strange reason. Having another, better Deathgreeter rather than resort to Blood Artist/Falkenrath Noble helps keep me on track.
    • Praetor's Grasp is useful for tutoring somebody else's card to use, or getting rid of problems, but with just a few deaths Bitter Ordeal can remove many problems and it's rather difficult to counter. I'm not making this swap just yet, but I recognize Bitter Ordeal is probably a much better choice.
    I think I'll have to be careful with how much discard I add. Mindslicer is already pretty strong because there's potential for getting rid of everybody's hands at instant speed "out of nowhere", and it's the "out of nowhere" that I probably should include sparingly versus things you can see coming somewhat, so I'll test Myojin in Mindslicer's place. Somehow, I want to encourage my friends to run a little more spot removal and better card draw.
    NB: In fact, that is one of my goals and I appreciate feedback on balancing that.

    I'll just have to keep an eye on opponent creature deaths and discard to evaluate whether Sangromancer/Geth's Grimoire/Waste Not get spots in the deck.

    Latest Changes2019-04-05

    So yeah, massive set of changes in this, and some different toys to test.

    I'm trying to refocus on variance in games by taking out some tutors for card draw. I'm actually fine with Demonic Tutor staying but it's needed in another deck where it's easier to cast there than Beseech the Queen is here. Final Parting would have been kindof like a black pseudo-Intuition so I can't say it'll never see play in the deck again. I considered Corpse Connoisseur — we'll see if I end up wanting that or Vampiric Tutor for those moments I need to save my hide. Also trying Liliana of the Dark Realms in place of one of the other tutors since tutoring for swamps is harmless. I have a feeling she'll be pretty redundant to the actual ramp and fetches but that emblem is on my bucket list. I also need to test how well ramping goes without Solemn Simulacrum at some point.

    Razzy I know would have been amazing as a giant beater, tutor, and sac outlet, but that tutor part is where he's getting benched for now. Torgaar was supposed to be a toolbox piece for bringing somebody's life down from too high or keeping mine afloat — but maybe if I was planning to need the manual override then my other life support wasn't doing too good. Sepulchral Primordial was basically redundancy with Chainer, and to magnify the effect of his ability. In their place, please welcome returning guest Abhorrent "Tokens for Days" Overlord and two brand new guests: Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief and Sheoldred, Whispering One.

    I read an interesting opinion recently that Vedalken Orrery can also be a useful deterrent to attacks and we're going to test that in place of No Mercy. Enough tokens will be dying that I imagine Aetherworks Marvel would also be good and can do neat tricks with Volrath's Stronghold/Scroll Rack/Vampiric Tutor/Library of Leng, so this is actually a flex slot to switch between Aetherworks and Orrery.

    Fallen Ideal is a die-hard sacrifice outlet but has no real benefit from the sacrifice, so now we're going to see what it's like to perform surgery on our opponents' hands with Mind Slash. Along the same lines of discard effects we're bringing in Oppression and Myojin of Night's Reach for Dark Deal and Mindslicer (not that 'Slicer isn't good — we're just going to try something different). Plaguecrafter buttons this up as teammate for Slum Reaper that can get a planeswalker or as a Liliana's Specter if our opponents don't have creatures (Specter was on the list for consideration, but I still want to lean more on removal than discard). I considered adding Bloodgift Demon in place of Doom Whisperer, but that Surveil 2 still needs testing.

    Burnished Hart is out for Wayfarer's Bauble and Myr Retriever, but since that's two cards I figure Sudden Spoiling might be enough fog for this deck and cut Darkness.

    While Claws of Gix has saved my bacon a time or two, I think Dross Harvester shows some promise for keeping my bacon out of the fire in the first place. Viscera Seer was very often underused by me because, while I wasn't a fan of the timing of the Scry 1 vs draw triggers, I was just always using other outlets. Perhaps the card draw of Vampiric Rites will prove more useful. In place of Ambition's Cost I'm adding the somewhat-similar Infernal Tribute, returning as my sacrifice-a-liability tool. The extra token production may change my mind about Seer someday regarding having card draw vs having scry combined with other card draw, so it's sortof a flex spot between the two, but as a sacrifice outlet it could also become Attrition if I figure I have enough card draw but want more removal.

    Finally on the mana/tokens front we'll be trying Pitiless Plunderer instead of Nirkana Revenant and Pawn of Ulamog as back up for Sifter of Skulls, replacing Defense Grid. I may end up liking Smothering Abomination even more.

    Somehow I didn't have any graveyard answers other than Chainer himself. I want something not too difficult to recur since an answer might be needed at instant speed. Withered Wretch can be mana intensive but is quite surgical and I've used him before, so we're going to try Agent of Erebos as a wholesale graveyard exile that can be re-used if I happen to get another enchantment on the field after him. Part of the reason for going for the wholesale exile approach is some recent experiences with enchantments and Bruna. Better to just nuke that whole 'yard.

    Cavern of Souls and Homeward Path are out for a third B booster land, Crypt of Agadeem, and a discard enabler in the form of Geier Reach Sanitarium. And I figured Vesuva is better here than in another deck where it would only have copied some colors or fetches, so I replaced a Swamp.
    Post Rebuild — Unused Stuff and Flex Slots
    Since I tend to ramp lands, I've been thinking of testing Underworld Connections for any synergy with Rings and Deserted Temple, probably in Necropotence's slot.

    I still want to see how I like Pestilence Demon with lifelink some day, but I'm pretty sure that with the amount of mana I can produce sometimes, there simply wouldn't be a reason to not Exsanguinate the table. Maybe that won't be an issue very often if I rely on draw.

    Flex Slots
    Here are what I'm considering as flex slots to test a handful of variations:
    Other Things
    Speaking of death-to-mana like Pitiless Plunderer, I've never actually tried Black Market yet to see if it skews how I play like I think it would. I like Revel in Riches better since I can spend the Treasure tokens whenever I want, but I also want to take a Sharpie to the win condition trigger and let everyone at the table pretend along with me that it doesn't exist. Black Market would work very nicely with the eldrazi tokens, though.

    I think I'm going to also add a Bucket List to the OP of silly things to make happen some day. Example: Run Korlash, Heir to Blackblade and use somebody's Clone or my Mirage Mirror along with XHD/Volrath's Stronghold/Phyrexian Reclamation to get some ridiculous ramp.

    Spotlight on a Pet Card: Mirage Mirror
    The Mirror is one of my favorite cards in the deck. It just becomes quite the multi-purpose, shenanigans-enabling little card, so I decided to put together a list of some of wonderful things it can do:
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • 1

    posted a message on Phenax, Mill Foreman
    Quote from Fr0sty711 »
    Also didn't know you could tap a summoning sickness creature with springleaf drum that is a cool little tidbit
    Yep. Anything that has "tap an untapped creature you control" as a cost on it can do that because it's that object that is tapping it. Summoning sickness only says that a creature with it can't use its own abilities that require tapping.
    Quote from Fr0sty711 »
    Also thanks for your insight on a couple of the other cards.. You may differ alittle bit from @lyonhaert but it's good to have different perspectives..
    Indeed it is. Don't get me started on how many different versions and approaches I've read while working on some of mine.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
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    posted a message on Phenax, Mill Foreman
    I do keep forgetting about Underworld Connections. I originally omitted Erebos based on price, thinking that since Arena is similar in price it would be the priority. But Erebos gets a nice big size 7 butt if he gets BBB more devotion aside from himself and Phenax.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • 1

    posted a message on Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
    Quote from drippyCat »
    I started writing a bunch but deleted it. I just realized that I don't actually know:
    Is this thread just for toctheyounger77's list?
    Or can it be used to discuss any/all Varina esper lists?
    The convention as I understand it is that decklist threads in this subforum or more for the former (that user's list and approach to playing the commander), but a lot of general discussion of cards for that commander happen in these threads anyway. Often it brings some new ideas to the user or helps them refine where they draw the line on certain things.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • 1

    posted a message on Random Card of the Final Day: Maelstrom Nexus
    I'd love for this cycle to be completed, too. I have a fondness for many of the 2-cost mana rocks.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
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    posted a message on Infinite combos and strong synergies - now under new management
    Quote from DementedKirby »
    Quote from Rasputin101 »
    Lethal Vapors + Teferi's Protection + krosan grip = infinite disappear and wait for your opponents to deck themselves from drawing for turn, krosan grip to destroy while you hold priority so your opponents don't one for one you on the missing turns


    How does this work, exactly?
    You activate Lethal Vapors many, many times, then respond to those activations with Krosan Grip so that your opponents can't activate it and also skip turns. Then Teferi's Protection to be untouchable during those turns. It's like putting yourself in suspended animation to outlive your opponents.

    I saw it in an Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim deck inspired by the BLAME! manga that did a lot of search-opponent-library-exile to make sure opponents were stripped of ways to recycle their libraries to 'survive' those many turns. The thread has since been deleted, though.

    Edit: Also, it used stuff like Grand Abolisher instead of Krosan Grip.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • 1

    posted a message on Zedruu the Greatest Of All Time
    Ah! Thanks for that. I can't remember if I got to the Resonator after Cowardice came down, but Release would have solved that.

    It has 2 luck counters, hahaha. Mizzix had cast Tezzeret's Gambit earlier and this happened:
    Him: "Now, is there anything else I should proliferate" *looks around the battlefield*
    Me: "How about my luck counter?"
    Him: "Does it do anything?"
    Me: "Nope."
    Him: "Okay, sure."
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • 1

    posted a message on Phenax, Mill Foreman
    I used to run a Phenax deck and have followed the thread for a while, so I'll attempt to answer some of your questions, mate, at least from my perspective.
    Quote from Fr0sty711 »
    So I'm alittle bit on a budget(try not to buy cards $8 or more in bunches)so the below cards are just a little bit out of my price range or haven't saved up to pick them up.. Do you have any suggestions for some budget plays for these cards.

    Glen Elendra Archmage
    Phyrexian metamorph
    Sheoldred, Whispering One
    Phyrexian Arena
    Toxic deluge
    Bribery
    These are somewhat unique, but try to think in terms of what they do when looking for replacements: instant-speed counterspell on a body that can be tapped to mill, clone, recursion and light stax, card draw, board wipe, theft.

    The first could possibly be just a counter. If you want to keep it on a body there are some alternatives you could consider, though some may not be as effective: Kheru Spellsnatcher, Siren Stormtamer (much narrower), Spiketail Drakeling, Spiketail Hatchling, Voidmage Apprentice, Voidmage Prodigy, Wizard Replica.

    Clone is pretty easy. Clever Impersonator is a bit less expensive than Metamorph and still allow you to copy other types of permanents. Then there are other clone variants that are cheaper, like Stunt Double.

    I can't think of a replacement for Sheoldred, honestly. Not a direct one, as she's three things: light stax to keep your opponents off creatures unless they have good token generation, recursion for your creatures, and a big body to attack with (I'm surprised Urborg isn't in the OP list) or tap to mill. There are ways to do these, but would cover multiple separate cards.

    Nor can I think of a direct replacement for Bribery as it accomplishes a couple things: removes a threat or tool from your opponent and places it in your hands. Only things that could come close, IIRC, are Dimir Doppelganger if you're able to destroy an existing threat in another way, Nemesis Trap if they ever attack with it already on the field, or various ways of gaining control of once it's cast or after it's on the battlefield. None of them allow you to search like Bribery, though.

    The advantage of Toxic Deluge as a wipe is that it gets around indestructible and with higher toughness on your creatures can be asymmetrical in some circumstances. But you could replace it with other wipes, such as Life's Finale which could replace part of Bribery if you're able to steal from their graveyard in some way.

    The lack of Phyrexian Arena and Rhystic Study will hurt. There are some other options like Bloodgift Demon, Graveborn Muse, Twilight Prophet that can help with consistent, gradual card draw. I do recommend picking up a Phyrexian Arena when you can. Very good staple in black decks.
    Quote from Fr0sty711 »
    These cards I didn't have either but I had some cards in my previous mill deck that I thought were pretty close to the same idea or filled the spot atlest .. Your cards def do the job better but I thought these might be decent substitutes. Thoughts on this?

    Morphling -- Pemmin's Aura
    Geth, lord of the Vault ----Sepulchral Primordial
    Necromancy--- animate dead
    No mercy--- silent arbiter (prob the worst one of the bunch)
    Rustic study ---visions of Beyond
    Reanimate --dimir doppelganger
    Damnation--- decree of pain
    Pemmin's Aura, Freed from the Real, etc. work will with King Macar's tokens, but it's the same risk as with any aura, though I did use them to good effect when I ran such things. Sepulchral Primordial works best with recursion, but could be useful. Animate Dead is an okay substitute - you only lose the option of instant speed. Nothing quite like No Mercy, either, as it puts stuff in the graveyard for some of Phenax's troops to get bigger. Dissipation Field may be an option, but Arbiter might work, too. I've found that attack deterrents have a psychological component that may have varying effectiveness in different playgroups (e.g. Crawlspace might work in a meta where Arbiter gets shot down immediately or accidentally helps an Exalt deck). I don't think Visions of Beyond is a good substitute for Rhystic Study as you should probably prefer permanent-based card draw that's repeatable instead of one-shots. The other substitutes are okay. Mutilate might be a wipe to consider, too - also Aether Snap. Wipes can be meta-dependent calls, too.
    Quote from Fr0sty711 »
    I remember reading in the primer somewhere that you didn't want to include silent arbiter because it didn't add to Phenax devotion.. Why do you want it to be a creature?? Just for blocking purposes.. I find in my meta I want to keep it a enchantment as much as I can as it is way harder to remove than a creature is.
    Not just for blocking. Phenax can tap and mill for 7 with his own ability. The indestructibility still helps. If there's a lot of targeted exile removal in your meta than you may indeed want to control your devotion.
    Quote from Fr0sty711 »
    So I don't like any infinite combos in my deck..(only reason I mention this is I will always remove cards from a build if they are infinite combos or automatic wincons as I don't enjoy those cards and our group doesn't allow them)

    I know eater of the dead and Phenax is close to infinite if there are enough creature cards but I don't see that as a true infinite combo and am ok with things like that in my deck….
    I do like this nifty little combo I have in my deck at the moment. spell crumple / junk troller / vessel of endless rest. Use 1 of those 3 to put a card on bottom of owners library.. Then I play tunnel vision... And mill them out for next turn.. I've only hit it twice the 10 times I played my deck but it's super fun.. But I should prob remove it as it's not consistent and only takes care of one opponent and I am usually playing against 2 or 3 other plp
    That's fine to remove if you want to since there are other things to shore up. I've removed gimmicks or even win conditions before after they were successful a couple times to make room for something new to try. I will warn you that Intruder Alarm tends to be an enabler for combos and will go off with Undead Alchemist. I have milled multiple folks out with Eater + Phenax in at least one game because one deck was creature heavy and I milled them a lot first to have fuel for milling the others.
    Quote from Fr0sty711 »
    Here are some cards im curious why you don't run.. I think some have been discussed as good but hard to find something in the deck to remove for them.
    On this I can definitely only comment from my perspective, and will have to change format a bit to use your list rather than quote it. Mostly, though, it may all come down to filling in some of the important stuff like card draw, removal, and protection, then see what slots are left for testing.

    Mortivore/Wight of Precinct Six — I've used Mortivore and Nighthowler before. Might not want too much redundancy in this type of creature, though.

    Guiltfeeder — I never ended up running this guy because if they have a black or artifact creature they can just chump block. I prefer effects like Mindcrank or Bloodchief Ascension that can affect other things I do instead of being one-time tricks. However those two cards are a combo, plus a well known one where if you see one players might expect the other and focus you.

    Slagwurm Armor — Yeah, nothing wrong with that IMO. Had that and Freed from the Real on King Macar once and decimated a table.

    Dramatic Reversal and Freed from the Real — The auras can be dependent on support cards sometimes, but Reversal is good. It can also work as single-turn pseudo vigilance or as "ritual" for extra mana. Also see Turnabout.

    Hover Barrier/Wall of Frost — I didn't use walls much. Their main usefulness is if Phenax is on the battlefield and otherwise they're pretty weak, though a non-white Wall of Denial would be okay if there were such a thing. Meishin, the Mind Cage is interesting, though.

    Fleet Swallower — Devastating if you can protect it. Eats removal. Could be worth testing.

    Fraying Sanity — You don't really want to have cards that are dead in hand until a certain time late-game. There are other enchantments like Psychic Corrosion that are more useful throughout the game.

    Mind Grind — Run it and see if it works for you. It can mill quite a bit to make it worth the one casting, especially if that's all you needed to get things moving for your other graveyard-dependent stuff like some creatures' power/toughness or methods of stealing from those graveyards. See if you can get Undead Alchemist out first, though.

    Mnemonic Betrayal — That's like a reverse Yawgmoth's Will except for theft. Need to have mana for casting, of course, but it does also pose a risk to Mortivore-type stuff.

    Bonehoard — I lump this in with Mortivore-type stuff since it's just as useful at the same times.

    Fabricate — Restricted tutors are risky. It depends how important those artifacts are, when you could run Diabolic Tutor instead.

    Infinite Reflection — This will not work the way you imagined with Sewer Nemesis. Any creature under your control already on the battlefield that became a copy of the original Sewer Nemesis would not copy its chosen player. With no chosen player their P/T would be 0/0 and they'd die. Any new creatures entering as a copy of Sewer Nemesis, however, would get their own choice of player as they enter. You'd also have to make sure that your devotion (including that supplied by Infinite Reflection would not tip Phenax into being a creature, too. Bit too risky for the deck unless you built around it a lot.

    Forced Fruition — It is very powerful, but could also paint a huge target on you. This kind of thing seems to me more prevalent in a mono-blue mill deck that does the job mostly by draw and discard. Some cards from those kind of decks like Jace's Archivist might be useful, though.
    Quote from Fr0sty711 »
    So overall I love most of your deck.. It isn't as mill forward as I was trying to build but that's prob why it's better as it can do more than just mill.. It disrupts/controls other plp as well as use all those cards going in the graveyard to my advantage.
    It does help to have a plan B, and the control elements to slow other players down (or at least slow down their efforts to kill you).
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
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