Why no Bloodsoaked Champion? Because bad card is bad? I tested with him a lot last season and the guy couldn't get the job done. He's only good for maybe the turn after you've played him, but gets obsoleted the minute your opponent has a blocker. He can't block himself, so you can't use him on defense. And finally, he's a mana sink that just isn't worth it to me. I'd rather spend the mana to recur him on casting another creature spell. Just my opinion.
More like great card is great! Have you ever played games where you have no cards or creatures in hand mid or late game and you keep drawing lands? This is when Champion shines. He is constant butcher food and a great way to recover off sweepers. In my experience testing and at FNMs, Bloodsoaked Champion is a versatile engine and one of the most useful cards in the deck.
You don't run enough elves to maximize the effectiveness of Shaman of the Pack. Your "Combo" or Rally the ancestors is far too conditional and is based on drawing the few elves you do have, having your opponent kill them, and then bringing them all back. If you really want to do this, I say up the elves count to 28 atleast. Straight GB aggro elves is a better deck than this IMO. It is much more consistent and wins quicker and isn't reliant on so many conditional things going your way for it to win.
Any elf deck that doesn't run Sylvan Messenger is not a good elf deck. That is one of the most powerful elves in standard right now and is amazing to stock your hand and recover from sweepers, which is elves biggest weakness.
I'm thinking of replacing the Bone Splinters with Abzan Charm. The problem is that the 3 drop spot is clogged enough as it is. Outnumber would work, but it's too dependent on how many creatures I have out on the field.
This is my problem too. I play mardu colors and run 4 bone splinters, but I feel like 2 is enough as I've lost some games I could have won if bone splinters was any other removal card and the splinters sit dead in my hand. When everything is running smooth and I have a massive board presence with all my engines up, splinters is amazing, but it isn't good to rely too much on that. Many people recommend Crackling Doom, but my 3 spot is clogged. Ruinous Path might be ok I suppose, but it's also a 3 drop. Alas, if only Doom Blade or Terminate still were in standard. Maybe Roast is the answer I'm looking for, the only thing it doesn't kill is that Green landfall creature with prevent damage remove a +1/+1 counter creature, but he isn't that great IMO and can be chump blocked for days anyways.
It's funny... I played Mono Red and Atarka Goblins respectively these past to years for the most part, and forgot all about Roast. The problem as I see it is that we still don't have a card that deals with big fliers. Dragons are still a thing, and Dragonlords Atarka, Ojutai, Dromoka, and Silumgar just run all over us. Maybe instead of running one spell as a catch all, we run a combination? Maybe 2 Bone Splinters and 2 Abzan Charm for my build and 2 Bone Splinters and 2 Crackling Doom for your build?
I only own one copy of Ruinous Path, and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar HAS been a huge thorn in my side. It might behoove us to have a least one copy to get rid of meddlesome planeswalkers such as him.
I've run in to too many planeswalkers too. I think I will run 2 Ruinous Path 2 Bonesplinters main, and some crackling dooms in the sideboard to deal with dragons. I keep opening Ruinous Path in draft and sealed and have 3 of them so maybe it's a sign from the magic gods. The awaken ability also is pretty cool, my deck does go to long games often times so that could be useful.
So I've gotten three Standard tournaments under my belt. I ran my decklists (found on Pages 2 and 11 respectively) for the first two tournaments. They did well enough, but I think some of my losses were based on misplays on my part more so than the deck itself (2-2 and 1-2-drop). But I also saw where the deck was faltering and sought to shore up it's weaknesses. This what I came up with (I went 3-1 and only lost to RG Landfall):
The first thing to note is that I decided to go four colors. The inspiration for this build came from quite a few people on this board. I remember some posters talking about a mind control build, whereby taking control of an opponent's creatures attacking with them and/or sacking them to Nantuko Husk. I also felt like my previous builds had some trouble finding "answers" and engine pieces fast enough. So I said to myself "This deck needs more card draw." As the deck started coming together, I realized that this deck shines the most when I have a ridiculous amount of creatures on the field I can sack at will to Husk and/or boardwipe. The only problem I've encountered is having the double red needed to activate Yasova Dragonclaw's ability reliably on Turn 4. This could be mitigated by adding a Sunken Hollow to the deck, BUT I agree with Patrick Chapin that the Battlelands work best when you have a combination of 17 Fetchlands/Basics. As it stands, I only have 15. I'll play around with the lands to see if I can make it work.
I'm thinking of replacing the Bone Splinters with Abzan Charm. The problem is that the 3 drop spot is clogged enough as it is. Outnumber would work, but it's too dependent on how many creatures I have out on the field.
I also play 4 colors, but in a completely different shell but the glaring issue I don't like with your deck is 9 potential tapped lands, 9 legendary creatures and 4 4 drops that don't effect the battlefield the turn they come down. Your mana base (and pardon my harshness) seems atrocious. I don't think it's possible for you to curve out on some of your draws. For example your dragon fodder draws are dependent on turn 1 tapped red land, while this is all fine, it also wants to be a smoldering marsh so you can play your double black spells on 3. If you draw a cinderglave you are then hoping too hit double runner swamp which doesn't seem all that unlikely seeing as you have 7 swamps, but then you have to also hope any remaining fetchlands you have can also find your white source to start casting your 3/4 drops in Ascendancy and Retreat this also isn't account for your white sideboard cards. If all that wasn't hard enough you now have a creature who relys on getting double blue or red to gain max usefulness.
Yes I get you don't always have to play your double black spells on 3, and you have husk marauder and yasova that are all single costed, but when you neuter your deck in such a way that you physically take away nut draws of let's say Dragon Fodder, into Drana into, Ascendancy/Lilly/double cuttthroat, it just seems to be putting yourself in a disadvantageous spot to begin with, despite the raw power the cards may offer. In a deck that plays no 1 drops, you have to push yourself in such a way that curving 2 into 3 into 4 can put yourself into a gaming winning board state. To play no 1 drops and then also still have the potential to stumble on 2 and 3 and even 4, makes it so you're not only 1 turn behind but sometimes even 2 in most games. Not to mention the likelihood of a hand full of legendary creature that you can not double cast.
TL;DR
I'd recommend if you are interested in the archetype to add a few mountains to the list, mainly 2, as well as a plains and 2 forest, put your sandsteppe's down to 1/2 and add in 3 painlands, 1 Battle field Forge and 2 Caves of Koilos
Thank you for your input. I've gone on record multiple times saying that I'm not the best when it comes to building proper mana bases, so no surprise here. It just gets tiresome to tell people that every time I make a deck that uses three or more colors. I lost using the second build of the deck because I built my mana base wrong and dropped after the third round in a 5 round tourney. With this third iteration, things have gotten slightly better. I'll try it with the recommendations you gave me and see what works.
That being said, I'm not sure about Yasova Dragonclaw in the deck. She comes off as being just "cute" to me. I could see going down to two of her. But I don't necessarily belive I should go down a Drana or Liliana because of how integral they are too the deck. Liliana is the only graveyard recursion in the deck, so I want to be able to draw her when I need her. Most opponents see her as a major threat, so she's a lightning rod for numerous removal spells first chance they get. Outside of Nantuko Husk, the only other strong win con (aside from the Cutthroat angle of the deck) is to go wide with creatures and pump with Drana. I'm not opposed to upping or downing the numbers of Dranas or Lilis, I'm just explaining why I made the deck the way that I did.
EDIT: Thought about it some more and I really don't think Yasova belongs in the deck, so I will be replacing her in the deck with 3 Abzan Charms instead. If you feel so inclined, do you mind showing me what my mana base should look like now? Thanks in advance!
If you're running red, you need Butcher of the Horde in your list. He will give an added wincon, is another sac engine in addition to Husk, and he has the ability to drag you back from certain death and turn games around and win them by himself if he doesn't instantly eat removal. I'd say get rid of your Outpost Sieges and Emeria and replace them with 4x Butcher.
I also recommend adding in copies of Hangarback Walker. He is an amazing token producer, and able to stall aggro, and is great in the control match up too.
ALSO IMO Sultai Emissary is better than Dragon Fodder. Try playtesting with it. Manifest is an amazing ability.
I'm thinking of replacing the Bone Splinters with Abzan Charm. The problem is that the 3 drop spot is clogged enough as it is. Outnumber would work, but it's too dependent on how many creatures I have out on the field.
This is my problem too. I play mardu colors and run 4 bone splinters, but I feel like 2 is enough as I've lost some games I could have won if bone splinters was any other removal card and the splinters sit dead in my hand. When everything is running smooth and I have a massive board presence with all my engines up, splinters is amazing, but it isn't good to rely too much on that. Many people recommend Crackling Doom, but my 3 spot is clogged. Ruinous Path might be ok I suppose, but it's also a 3 drop. Alas, if only Doom Blade or Terminate still were in standard. Maybe Roast is the answer I'm looking for, the only thing it doesn't kill is that Green landfall creature with prevent damage remove a +1/+1 counter creature, but he isn't that great IMO and can be chump blocked for days anyways.
I've done some playtesting against Orzhov allies. I think the most important lesson I've learned is that Zulaport Cutthroat is absolutely vital in any creature heavy matchup. In the first game I was facing down a pair of them without ever drawing into my removal or Cutthroats of my own, which was painful to the point where I actually boarded in Infinite Obliterations just to get rid of opposing Cutthroats. I think I may have also overvalued Bloodsoaked Champion, it's early pressure and can be recurred reliably, but other cards are more efficient at providing sacrifice triggers. I've actually been in situations where I could easily support two Smothering Abomination on the field simultaneously, quickly blowing out the game in two or three turns off their backs, but it does seem like I can afford to cut one.
Wow for me I find Bloodsoaked Champion to be amazing, especially late game and vs control. I wish I could run more than 4 and wish there were more graveyard recur creatures like him for this deck!
Anyone tried sultai with sidisi brood tyrant and possibly jace?
I haven't, but I really wish I could, because Sidisi, Brood Tyrant is awesome. I run a mardu list. I love Butcher of the Horde too much in this deck. I know 5 color mana is possible but my deck is pretty aggro and I don't like doing nothing the first few turns but put lands in.
Here's a version I've been playing. Qarsi High Priest does WORK and is one of my favorite cards in the deck.
I need a better all purpose removal spell than Bone Spinters. 2 Bone Splinters has been fine but tonight I lost a game holding 2 bone splinters in my hand with 0 creatures on my side of the field, and I could have turned things around if they were any other removal spell. I might try 2 Crackling Doom, 2 Bone Splinters but I don't like that Crackling Doom costs RWB. My deck can consistently get a turn 4 Butcher out, but having RBW with the lands I have now on turn 3 would be a bit inconsistent. Otherwise, I absolutely love the way this deck runs. It is so fun to play and I love being able to win with beats and alternatively winning through sacking with a cutthroat out. My sideboard can use work, but otherwise I'm very happy with this list.
Manifest is such an incredible ability with so many creatures in the deck.
Jeering Instigator is fun. Nothing is better than stealing your opponent's fatty, beating them over the head with it then sacing it, or turn it in to Butcher food.
Has any one come up with a cool creature based removal engine? Also has anyone tested Kolaghan's Command? I'd love a good way to bring by Butchers back once they get killed.
I like that this deck functions fine without Zulaport Cutthroat, but if he is in, everything becomes amazing and if there's 2 it is game over.
I have a very good match up vs the Abzan versions of this deck I've played, mainly due to Butcher beats and his 10 point life swing attacks. Zulaport deck mirror match is so fun to play with the constant life swings and triggers every time something dies, hopefully more in my LGS start playing it.
I absolutely love this deck. This is the most fun I've had playing standard in such a long time.
More like great card is great! Have you ever played games where you have no cards or creatures in hand mid or late game and you keep drawing lands? This is when Champion shines. He is constant butcher food and a great way to recover off sweepers. In my experience testing and at FNMs, Bloodsoaked Champion is a versatile engine and one of the most useful cards in the deck.
Any elf deck that doesn't run Sylvan Messenger is not a good elf deck. That is one of the most powerful elves in standard right now and is amazing to stock your hand and recover from sweepers, which is elves biggest weakness.
Also, you should run 4 Beastcaller Savant IMO.
EDIT: was talking about OP's list, not Tordecks
I've run in to too many planeswalkers too. I think I will run 2 Ruinous Path 2 Bonesplinters main, and some crackling dooms in the sideboard to deal with dragons. I keep opening Ruinous Path in draft and sealed and have 3 of them so maybe it's a sign from the magic gods. The awaken ability also is pretty cool, my deck does go to long games often times so that could be useful.
If you're running red, you need Butcher of the Horde in your list. He will give an added wincon, is another sac engine in addition to Husk, and he has the ability to drag you back from certain death and turn games around and win them by himself if he doesn't instantly eat removal. I'd say get rid of your Outpost Sieges and Emeria and replace them with 4x Butcher.
I also recommend adding in copies of Hangarback Walker. He is an amazing token producer, and able to stall aggro, and is great in the control match up too.
ALSO IMO Sultai Emissary is better than Dragon Fodder. Try playtesting with it. Manifest is an amazing ability.
How come you don't want to play Bloodsoaked Champion?
This is my problem too. I play mardu colors and run 4 bone splinters, but I feel like 2 is enough as I've lost some games I could have won if bone splinters was any other removal card and the splinters sit dead in my hand. When everything is running smooth and I have a massive board presence with all my engines up, splinters is amazing, but it isn't good to rely too much on that. Many people recommend Crackling Doom, but my 3 spot is clogged. Ruinous Path might be ok I suppose, but it's also a 3 drop. Alas, if only Doom Blade or Terminate still were in standard. Maybe Roast is the answer I'm looking for, the only thing it doesn't kill is that Green landfall creature with prevent damage remove a +1/+1 counter creature, but he isn't that great IMO and can be chump blocked for days anyways.
Wow for me I find Bloodsoaked Champion to be amazing, especially late game and vs control. I wish I could run more than 4 and wish there were more graveyard recur creatures like him for this deck!
I haven't, but I really wish I could, because Sidisi, Brood Tyrant is awesome. I run a mardu list. I love Butcher of the Horde too much in this deck. I know 5 color mana is possible but my deck is pretty aggro and I don't like doing nothing the first few turns but put lands in.
Here's a version I've been playing. Qarsi High Priest does WORK and is one of my favorite cards in the deck.
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Zulaport Cutthroat
4 Sultai Emissary
1 Humble Defector
1 Jeering Instigator
2 Nantuko Husk
1 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
1 Liliana, Heretical Healer
4 Butcher of the Horde
1 Smothering Abomination
2 Altar's Reap
4 Bone Splinters
2 Nomad Outpost
2 Smoldering Marsh
3 Battlefield Forge
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Bloodstained Mire
8 Swamp
3 Arashin Cleric
2 Utter End
3 Ultimate Price
1 Felidar Cub
1 Rally the Ancestors
1 Duress
3 Self-Inflicted Wound
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
I need a better all purpose removal spell than Bone Spinters. 2 Bone Splinters has been fine but tonight I lost a game holding 2 bone splinters in my hand with 0 creatures on my side of the field, and I could have turned things around if they were any other removal spell. I might try 2 Crackling Doom, 2 Bone Splinters but I don't like that Crackling Doom costs RWB. My deck can consistently get a turn 4 Butcher out, but having RBW with the lands I have now on turn 3 would be a bit inconsistent. Otherwise, I absolutely love the way this deck runs. It is so fun to play and I love being able to win with beats and alternatively winning through sacking with a cutthroat out. My sideboard can use work, but otherwise I'm very happy with this list.
Manifest is such an incredible ability with so many creatures in the deck.
Jeering Instigator is fun. Nothing is better than stealing your opponent's fatty, beating them over the head with it then sacing it, or turn it in to Butcher food.
Has any one come up with a cool creature based removal engine? Also has anyone tested Kolaghan's Command? I'd love a good way to bring by Butchers back once they get killed.
I like that this deck functions fine without Zulaport Cutthroat, but if he is in, everything becomes amazing and if there's 2 it is game over.
I have a very good match up vs the Abzan versions of this deck I've played, mainly due to Butcher beats and his 10 point life swing attacks. Zulaport deck mirror match is so fun to play with the constant life swings and triggers every time something dies, hopefully more in my LGS start playing it.
I absolutely love this deck. This is the most fun I've had playing standard in such a long time.