Red doesn't need this. I've tested it with my friends in R/G and R/W, and we've concluded (with 10/10/10 testing vs. competitive decks) that it's strictly worse than Blood Moon AND that no red deck wants to have eight of their sideboard cards be the same thing. Not good. Besides, if you don't hit your artifact disruption, they disrupt you anyways. Subpar.
I'm going to bring up a quote from earlier in the thread:
I don't see how adding Teferi would make the deck 10x better. It makes it quite unfocused and you will constantly have trouble with mana, I'm certainly going to try him, but I have the feeling that it will disrupt the deck rather than help it. And I'll repeat, I have tested it out yet, because FS is not legal, but since I assume you haven't either, how can you know that Teferi makes it "10x better"?
Do you mind if I see a list of your deck? Because Martyr of Sands is very good against aggro, but I would like to see if you have a better way to not lose to aggro.
Teferi makes the deck better because it would play out like Scepter-Chant did in Extended season. It becomes a hard lock, as opposed to one that is a lock until they draw instead speed removal, which they play on their upkeep. Which they can't do if you have a Teferi. Hard lock > soft lock.
As for Martyr, I don't see it as being wildly good, since you still need to solve their threats. I think that mass removal or Faith's Fetters would be a lot better, but that's just theory. Just like Martyr.
except for the fact you give up your land drop for the turn...
...except for how, since you're playing Green and are using mana-accel or manlands, you ostensibly have an explosive start and this can be either a forest or an elves, depending on what you want?
Oh, and by the way, lands have summoning sickness. Creatures and lands have summoning sickness. Doesn't take away the land's ability to make mana. I've asked a judge about this. You can go Dryad, Elves, go.
You need 2 detritivore maindeck. It's shocking to see somebody only run 1 of the champion of the world. Cut the 2 boom/bust for another 'vore and another hellkite.
Noooo. It's awful vs. Aggro. Boom/Bust can at least slow down Aggro, and it wrecks so many decks out of the blue. Just having three signets and a Flagstones in play and dropping a Bust vs. Control is game. Hellkite is a one of because it's not good vs. everything (it's mostly dead vs. a good control player, where they're smart enough not to tap out when you have EIGHT MANA UP).
Boom/Bust has flat out won games, and I actually recommend going up to four in the main.
I got that from the fact that neither of the two decks is very good right now. Neither of which beat Izzetron. Neither of which are stellar against angelfire. Dralnu isn't awful against dstorm (it's hardly ideal though) but UBr Tron faces a huge upill battle. Though I haven't tested it, it looks like UG Pickle Tron is favored in both those matches as well. UBr and Dralnu don't scoop to Gruul, but I'd def wanna be in the Gruul seat. That's where I get that nonsense from.
Something has to be said about this. Since no one else has commented on it, I will. It's wrong. There are changes that can be made to the UBr Tron list (Last Gasp over Repeal, other various tuning and number balancing, all that stuff) to make it better vs. Izzetron and Gruul (believe me, 3 Last Gasp MD is sick vs. so much), and if you took the time to test, you'd know that Angelfire is 35-65 to UBr, maybe getting to 45-55 post board because it hits Detritivore more because it boards in three to Tron's two. Really, whichever suspends the 'Vore for more will generally win.
As for UGTron, I don't agree with your assessment at all. Repeal for nil on a morph is a ridiculous play, as is Spell Burst bought back for a total of four mana. Four. That's really really good, esp. in a deck that plays seven signets. A normal draw enables hitting that mana by turn 3, having played a sig turn 2. And yes, I do play three Spell Bursts, so it is a commonality.
As for DStorm, I can't offer my opinion since I haven't tested the matchup, but Tron does seem to be unfavored. Really, though, I'll take a poor Dstorm matchup for the ability to have a massive Detritivore, Demonfire, or Aeon Chronicler, and having Spell Burst lock to boot.
Dralnu is a dog to Angelfire games 2 and 3. In most of the side events at GP Mass, I was playing the standard Dralnu list and got rolled by turn 5 Detritivore for 2. It was ridiculous. I've given that deck up.
anyone having problems with dredge abuse decks, because when i tried playing the deck 80% to 100% of the time i ran out of counters and they can easily kill teferi with a sb sudden death, tormods crypt + extirpate is not enough to stop them, i've tried it already, any good ideas??
Withered Wretch. I play it as a 2-of, because you're sure as hell not going to be stopping the first volley of removal aimed at him. I've boarded him in vs. Dredge to great effect, the best time being in the late game with a ton of mana, responding to a flashbacked Dread Return by (with a Teferi on board) Teachings, Wretch, and rfging the targeted Akroma, then untapping and wiping out their graveyard of relevant dredge cards. Good card, that.
I remember two drafts in particular, and I remember the drafts and not the sealed ridiculousness because in draft, I ONLY GET TO KEEP ONE. For example, in TTT draft, I opened a second pack, when solidly in U/G, of
Foil Flagstones of Trokair
Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Jaya Ballard
I just raredrafted the Flagstones. Yay for $30? It was at the peak of its being-playedness. Another one, more recently, was
Damnation
Foil Damnation
Like that was hard. Still, my friend looked at me like I had a second AND third head when he saw the Damnation. In conclusion: I hate drafts.
I tried, in my first round of testing w/ Dralnu, to play 2 teferi and 2 skelvamp and 1 dralnu. It was awful. I was forced to play much more conservatively with my Teferis as a result, and thus lost a few games I shouldn't've simply because I couldn't default win a few counterbattles I should've, since I had the opening to play a Teferi and didn't because I knew they had the Sudden Death and didn't want to risk them killing both. Dropping to two is awful in a format where you fear split second removal, but if you don't, go for it.
I hate to see really cool decks like dredge keel over and die, but Extirpate's impact has not gone unnoticed. After testing against a strange version of dralnu including 3 MD extirpate and 4 MD glimpse the unthinkable, my team an I concluded that it's a really, REALLY good way to kill combo.
Dragonstorm lost: 0-3
Martyr Lost: 0-1
While this isn't exactly extensive, it does say something when the defining play of each game was "glimpse...teachings...extirpate...Lunch?" What it also says is that R/D saw graveyard strategies as problematic for standard, and wanted to push different deckbuilding ideas. In that way, it will probably never get banned. But on a personal level, I really dislike the impact that extirpate makes. As someone who really enjoys decks like dredge and XRW angelfire, it seems to me to be a shame for R/D to push decks like Gruul beats and Dralnu.
The problem with Dralnu decks such as those that would maindeck a card like Glimpse the Unthinkable is that those decks are, quite literally, dead against aggro due to the threat diversity that aggro possesses and the fact that they have seven of 60 cards that will do nothing to prevent the fact that Aggro wins on turn 5, often with little to no duplication of effects. Milling an aggro deck is nothing meaningful, they still resolve threats and beat your face in. A huge advantage to Dralnu is that it can have game against early aggro and completely lock down the game late, whereas there are more than four cards in any beatdown deck that can ruin you.
Dredge is by no means "dead", and it's foolish to think that they're kold to an Extirpate or two. Extirpate on Grave-Troll is the easy part. Dealing with a 16/16 Svogthos? Little harder. Extirpate on Stinkweed Imp is the next hit, one that has to happen. After that comes Svogthos. Problem is, they also have Dread Returns, and I hear that a reanimated Hellkite is none too good for Dralnu. In fact, we have one way to deal with a card like that: Seize the Soul. Or Repeal for 9, but that's really silly. I digress, though. Dredge is just as robust as it ever was, and Extirpate isn't going to kill it. In fact, Dredge might RUN Extirpate as more tech against Dralnu, since Extirpate on Teferi is kinda bad for the Dralnu player.
As for the matchups, they really aren't extensive. You run tests more than three games because Dragonstorm runs Remand, and even if they don't see it in games 1, 2, or 3, they WILL see it at some point and they can just Remand the Glimpse, Drowse on upkeep, and go off turn 4 as normal. Yes, Extirpate puts pressure on combo and control, but show me testing vs. Aggro decks such as Boros, tell me how many points you just lost in that matchup by adding four dead Sorceries to the maindeck. How about R/G? MGA? I find it hard to believe that Glimpse is any good at all in any of those matchups, since those decks empty their hand by turn 3 or 4, meaning you gave away a card so you could lose faster. Actually, two cards (Glimpse and Extirpate), just so you could take a few cards out of their deck. Not a defining difference in a match that lasts six turns.
As for Martyr, why didn't the Martyr player just resolve a Martyr turn 1 and then keep it on the board? Assuming the normal U/W build, repeal for 1 certainly hits a counter of some sort.
As for your claim that R and D is "pushing" certain archetypes, it's certainly laughable. Angelfire, in case you didn't notice, did pretty well in a field of OMG HATE EXTIRPATE IS IN THE FORMAT AND IT'S COMING FOR THE DECKS THAT R AND D DOESN'T LIKE, otherwise known as GP: Kyoto, where (I believe) two Angelfire builds T8'd and one or two Project X decks, A GRAVEYARD-BASED COMBO, T8'd as well. This is a clear sign that Extirpate is not a detriment to the format. This panic is typical of prerelease hysteria, not of the commentary after a major event where it is clear that Dralnu and R/G are actually NOT the Decks to Beat, those go to Izzetron and Angelfire, the latter of which you said is wrecked by Extirpate.
Please feel free to contact me privately to further this discussion.
Also, i like leak and snare and cut the remands a long time ago for the leaks because i found them useless.
Ohhhhhh noooooooooooooooooo, here the argument comes.
More on topic, I think that Dismal Failure would only take the spot of Rewind, and Rewind --> Teferi is way too good to cut. Seriously, who doesn't love untapping mana?
Teferi makes the deck better because it would play out like Scepter-Chant did in Extended season. It becomes a hard lock, as opposed to one that is a lock until they draw instead speed removal, which they play on their upkeep. Which they can't do if you have a Teferi. Hard lock > soft lock.
As for Martyr, I don't see it as being wildly good, since you still need to solve their threats. I think that mass removal or Faith's Fetters would be a lot better, but that's just theory. Just like Martyr.
...except for how, since you're playing Green and are using mana-accel or manlands, you ostensibly have an explosive start and this can be either a forest or an elves, depending on what you want?
Oh, and by the way, lands have summoning sickness. Creatures and lands have summoning sickness. Doesn't take away the land's ability to make mana. I've asked a judge about this. You can go Dryad, Elves, go.
Noooo. It's awful vs. Aggro. Boom/Bust can at least slow down Aggro, and it wrecks so many decks out of the blue. Just having three signets and a Flagstones in play and dropping a Bust vs. Control is game. Hellkite is a one of because it's not good vs. everything (it's mostly dead vs. a good control player, where they're smart enough not to tap out when you have EIGHT MANA UP).
Boom/Bust has flat out won games, and I actually recommend going up to four in the main.
Something has to be said about this. Since no one else has commented on it, I will. It's wrong. There are changes that can be made to the UBr Tron list (Last Gasp over Repeal, other various tuning and number balancing, all that stuff) to make it better vs. Izzetron and Gruul (believe me, 3 Last Gasp MD is sick vs. so much), and if you took the time to test, you'd know that Angelfire is 35-65 to UBr, maybe getting to 45-55 post board because it hits Detritivore more because it boards in three to Tron's two. Really, whichever suspends the 'Vore for more will generally win.
As for UGTron, I don't agree with your assessment at all. Repeal for nil on a morph is a ridiculous play, as is Spell Burst bought back for a total of four mana. Four. That's really really good, esp. in a deck that plays seven signets. A normal draw enables hitting that mana by turn 3, having played a sig turn 2. And yes, I do play three Spell Bursts, so it is a commonality.
As for DStorm, I can't offer my opinion since I haven't tested the matchup, but Tron does seem to be unfavored. Really, though, I'll take a poor Dstorm matchup for the ability to have a massive Detritivore, Demonfire, or Aeon Chronicler, and having Spell Burst lock to boot.
Dralnu is a dog to Angelfire games 2 and 3. In most of the side events at GP Mass, I was playing the standard Dralnu list and got rolled by turn 5 Detritivore for 2. It was ridiculous. I've given that deck up.
Withered Wretch. I play it as a 2-of, because you're sure as hell not going to be stopping the first volley of removal aimed at him. I've boarded him in vs. Dredge to great effect, the best time being in the late game with a ton of mana, responding to a flashbacked Dread Return by (with a Teferi on board) Teachings, Wretch, and rfging the targeted Akroma, then untapping and wiping out their graveyard of relevant dredge cards. Good card, that.
Foil Flagstones of Trokair
Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Jaya Ballard
I just raredrafted the Flagstones. Yay for $30? It was at the peak of its being-playedness. Another one, more recently, was
Damnation
Foil Damnation
Like that was hard. Still, my friend looked at me like I had a second AND third head when he saw the Damnation. In conclusion: I hate drafts.
What about Solidarity? It seems pretty bad to just Needle Delta.
The problem with Dralnu decks such as those that would maindeck a card like Glimpse the Unthinkable is that those decks are, quite literally, dead against aggro due to the threat diversity that aggro possesses and the fact that they have seven of 60 cards that will do nothing to prevent the fact that Aggro wins on turn 5, often with little to no duplication of effects. Milling an aggro deck is nothing meaningful, they still resolve threats and beat your face in. A huge advantage to Dralnu is that it can have game against early aggro and completely lock down the game late, whereas there are more than four cards in any beatdown deck that can ruin you.
Dredge is by no means "dead", and it's foolish to think that they're kold to an Extirpate or two. Extirpate on Grave-Troll is the easy part. Dealing with a 16/16 Svogthos? Little harder. Extirpate on Stinkweed Imp is the next hit, one that has to happen. After that comes Svogthos. Problem is, they also have Dread Returns, and I hear that a reanimated Hellkite is none too good for Dralnu. In fact, we have one way to deal with a card like that: Seize the Soul. Or Repeal for 9, but that's really silly. I digress, though. Dredge is just as robust as it ever was, and Extirpate isn't going to kill it. In fact, Dredge might RUN Extirpate as more tech against Dralnu, since Extirpate on Teferi is kinda bad for the Dralnu player.
As for the matchups, they really aren't extensive. You run tests more than three games because Dragonstorm runs Remand, and even if they don't see it in games 1, 2, or 3, they WILL see it at some point and they can just Remand the Glimpse, Drowse on upkeep, and go off turn 4 as normal. Yes, Extirpate puts pressure on combo and control, but show me testing vs. Aggro decks such as Boros, tell me how many points you just lost in that matchup by adding four dead Sorceries to the maindeck. How about R/G? MGA? I find it hard to believe that Glimpse is any good at all in any of those matchups, since those decks empty their hand by turn 3 or 4, meaning you gave away a card so you could lose faster. Actually, two cards (Glimpse and Extirpate), just so you could take a few cards out of their deck. Not a defining difference in a match that lasts six turns.
As for Martyr, why didn't the Martyr player just resolve a Martyr turn 1 and then keep it on the board? Assuming the normal U/W build, repeal for 1 certainly hits a counter of some sort.
As for your claim that R and D is "pushing" certain archetypes, it's certainly laughable. Angelfire, in case you didn't notice, did pretty well in a field of OMG HATE EXTIRPATE IS IN THE FORMAT AND IT'S COMING FOR THE DECKS THAT R AND D DOESN'T LIKE, otherwise known as GP: Kyoto, where (I believe) two Angelfire builds T8'd and one or two Project X decks, A GRAVEYARD-BASED COMBO, T8'd as well. This is a clear sign that Extirpate is not a detriment to the format. This panic is typical of prerelease hysteria, not of the commentary after a major event where it is clear that Dralnu and R/G are actually NOT the Decks to Beat, those go to Izzetron and Angelfire, the latter of which you said is wrecked by Extirpate.
Please feel free to contact me privately to further this discussion.
Ohhhhhh noooooooooooooooooo, here the argument comes.
More on topic, I think that Dismal Failure would only take the spot of Rewind, and Rewind --> Teferi is way too good to cut. Seriously, who doesn't love untapping mana?