I like the Ancient Stirrings...I really do. I just think I would need a few more colorless options to ensure they "hit" all the time.
That, and Abundant Growth is just REALLY good in a Curio build with Oath of Nissa...It (in my opinion) is alteady a good Devotion card (see above discussion and SCG article) but it becomes great in Curio builds. Robrone was right to have it; and I shouldn't have gone away from it. It's not a small deal that it is a permanent too.
Your Cloudstone Curio deck intrigues me (along with your write ups) but why are you not running 4? I play a Green Devotion BTE/Pact Combo to get Hoof and swing for a victory. Just seemed odd that if the combo apparently need Curio it is not being run, unless I am missing something else, or that the alternate plan of beating down just works as well sometimes.
Also Genesis Hydra and Balista is a bit of a non-bo, wondering on your opinions of these cards together.
OK well I've slept and now it's morning in my part of the world. How was your final round? Did you win? I'm guessing you were a lock for day 2 which is sweet
it was 9 rounds day 1, 6 rounds day 2 so yup i made day 2. in fact 6-3 and above made day 2.
Edit:
Just got 26th out of 617 at the SCG Milwaukee Open with BTL Black Scapeshift. Woohoo!
Congrats! Exciting to hear
I've got a Modern No Ban List coming up. I've thought about jamming a lot of things and then thought, why not jam a MNBL Scapeshift Deck. I'm thinking traditional RUG with some good cantrips and seeing my friend Dig through Time again. Any thoughts on what to modify from some of the traditional builds? Bolt any good in a No ban list meta ya think?
Well despite me 2-0ing infect twice this weekend it's a scary matchup and with blazing shoal legal you'll see more infect in no banlist modern meta. Bolt helps against that but not sure what you'd take out. a bolt version of scapeshift is very different from mine. I'll post a link to my list once scg posts them but I'll link to my reddit post that is pretty close to up to date and ive got a lot of info there
I like to think I'm getting up there in the Veteran Status of playing Scapeshift, and a true advocate for BTL-White. I literally thought I'd give this a shot to try cause I have a State Champ thing coming up. First League, 5-0, First Time I've 5-0ed (Many 4-1s with BTL-W). I think I'll be ordering my Damnation and Maelstrom Pulse tonight :)!
OK well I've slept and now it's morning in my part of the world. How was your final round? Did you win? I'm guessing you were a lock for day 2 which is sweet
it was 9 rounds day 1, 6 rounds day 2 so yup i made day 2. in fact 6-3 and above made day 2.
Edit:
Just got 26th out of 617 at the SCG Milwaukee Open with BTL Black Scapeshift. Woohoo!
Congrats! Exciting to hear
I've got a Modern No Ban List coming up. I've thought about jamming a lot of things and then thought, why not jam a MNBL Scapeshift Deck. I'm thinking traditional RUG with some good cantrips and seeing my friend Dig through Time again. Any thoughts on what to modify from some of the traditional builds? Bolt any good in a No ban list meta ya think?
There is a lot of good discussion around Courser/Geist, and I thought I'd add my two cents here. I've previously posted a decklist, but I'll post with my most recent modifications.
Recent Sideboard Changes
-2 Boil
-1 Crumble to Dust
-1 Elderscale Wurm
-1 Nylea's Disciple
+2 Choke
+1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
+2 Bonfire of the Damned
The changes to the sideboard come from these obbservations:
Crumble is not as heavily necessary as it was in Eldrazi Meta, but it is still an excellent kill land spell and I feel there is no reason to not run it. In many combo type decks or even in matchups with pesky man-lands we are able to remove many win cons or just annoying extra creatures that pick away at us in long games.
The addition of Choke is still in play. I believe someone mentioned the 3 CMC slot is critical, and for that reason Boil was cut and Choke was added.
After 50+ Games, I never once brought in Nylea's Disciple so it was an easy cut. I also cut 1 Elderscale Wurm because normally I just need one to lock an opponent out for enough turns. Path to Exile is still a card so most times it does not come in against white.
Wilt-leaf Liege is in the trial stages, and I have not been disappointed yet. It doesn't come in all the time, but that extra buff alongside a Nissa Buff can be back breaking for our opponent.
There is a lot of discussion between Geist/BTE, and I'd like to give my two cents. I feel if you're going Combo like in your build and using Summoner's Pact, BTE is an auto-include over Geist. My reasoning is that we in many ways want to skip the 2 CMC slot. BTE allows us to skip it while dumping our hand, where a Geist locks us out of Mana for a turn in many cases and can feel awkward in the hand. If my main goal is to kill with Craterhoof Behemoth a geist getting in for even 4 - 6 damage honestly won't make much of a difference. With 'staying power creatures' I would always recommend Kitchen Finks over the Geist.
I'll have to come back to this, but I'd like to say where I feel Genesis Wave, Tooth and Nail, and Pact/Command drives each person. I'd rank them as:
Wave: Hyper Ramp / Go over the Top
Tooth and Nail: Combo Kill Oriented / Attrition
Pact/Command: Combo Kill/Combo Control
There is an argument to be an Aggro deck, but I feel if you are truly focusing on these game plans, the most aggro of these is the Wave plan. I call it more "Hyper Ramp" though because you're looking to aggro big things, not necessarily the small aggro that is custom to say. I'll post more later when I have a chance!
Acidic Slime - I cannot say how much of a powerhouse this card is. It is in the Primal Command CMC slot, so it is completely attainable. I bring two of these in, and am in the process of testing 1 Main and 1 Board.
Crumble to Dust - This card is decent, and good to have in case we have pesky lands or other issues. Hitting a Tron piece is icing on the cake, and turn 2 Crumble is not impossible in our normal ramp builds, but it is more likely to show up on turn 3 or after.
Our goal is to slow them down here or race them. The trouble card you will hit most likely is Oblivion Stone and or Karn/New Ulamog.
Hey guys, I ran across the MTG Modern Tooth and Nail deck a couple of days ago and I was thinking about building it. However, I was not sure how competitive it would be against some of the faster decks such as infect, burn, bogles, affinity, etc? The Tooth and Nail deck look likes a turn 4 deck and a lower tier deck at its best. Any help would be appreciative. Thanks
Green Devotion is remarkable competitive and has a lot more avenues of play then simply jam big dudes. The Tooth and Nail variant I feel is a little more all in on the larger creatures where more Planeswalker and Creature combos can hang. As for the faster decks, Elves is likely the hardest matchup, and the others you mention are rough but do-able pre-board. Post-board we have so many ways to tutor up life gain or flood the board that we should be fine. It is not impossible in some builds to kill on turn 3. This is my biggest argument for Burning-Tree Emissary over Strangleroot Geist.
I'm thinking about going the PW route.. Do I need to include Doubling Season? Or can the deck be competitive without that card?
Planewalker route is certainly an interesting one. I don't believe you would need Doubling Season to be competitive. You're already going to be challenging them to keep up with your walkers, adding a card that presents a threat but does not produce a threat immediately is where I'd look at it, that being said obviously multiple Planeswalkers of the same type are not ideal either. Throw one in for a try but I have this gut feeling you will be boarding it out more then you think. I do not play the planeswalker build.
I've been working on the devotion deck a bit. Kitchen Finks and Strangleroot Geist have been great. I even eeked out a win in a game in which I had no ramp, but 2 Elvish visionaries, a Strangleroot Geist and Kitchen Finks in hand. Despite a slow start, the geist got in early pressure against a greedy mana base and kitchen finks kept me alive until I eventually overwhelmed the opponent. I wouldn't normally keep a hand with no mana acceleration but it worked out.
Been thinking about why Nissa, Voice of Zendikar is better than most people expected. I don't believe there is another planeswalker that has a plus one ability to make a token in the 3 converted mana cost slot. The fact that we can often get it out on turn 2 means a lot of creatures for our opponent to get through and damage us. I've upped my count to 3 and am interested to see the results.
Speaking of Nissa, I wonder if she along with our other walkers could turn this card into a crazy wincon Furystoke Giant. Consider: If we play an elf on turn one, sprawl/Nissa turn 2, Xenagos turn 3 and a strangleroot geist and this guy turn 4. If all creatures are still alive we can deal 12 direct damage on turn 4. I wonder if Furystoke Giant backed up by strangleroot geist, Kitchen Finks, Burning-Tree Emissary, Nest Invader, the superfriends and summoner's pact could make a playable deck. ***Edit*** I just remembered that Summoner's Pact is only good for a green creature. Doh!
The current project has focused on making the deck's overall cmc lower lately. Those strangleroot geist and Kitchen finks can really keep the opponents at bay while fishing for a wincon.
The main change I made was to include 2 Primeval Titan's and 4 Summoner's pact. Primeval Titan is a win con that is cheaper than Craterhoof. I like that he helps negate the cost of summoner's pact by getting you two lands before you must pay pact's cost. Grabbing that Kessig wolf run is so appealing too.
I like a lot of this, I am not sold on the Strangleroot Geist personally as I look to combo a bit more then apply pressure. The staying power of both Strangleroot Geist and Kitchen Finks is some serious power though, I am even considering the Finks myself. I think here is where I'll toss out my idea. Dropping x2 Courser of Kruphix for x2 Kitchen Finks to go along with a 1 of Wilt-Leaf Liege in the sideboard. Something I just want to give a shot, and may so after reading this.
Although I have not tested it, I have 2 on the way. If I were to go this route (see above comment) I'd likely keep Courser's in instead of making my swap. At this point I would be tempted a bit to find one more enchantment type creature to help along the package so I'm getting full value when I drop them.
Melira, Sylvok Outcast - We can tutor up with a Summoner's Pact to buy us time. This obviously shuts down a lot of their Infect and causing them to just deal us damage.
Spellskite - Redirects their pump spells slowing them down.
From here we are just looking to last long enough to go over the top.
Merfolk: Here our options are
Choke or Boil - Based on which flavor you may be running. The downside to both is if they use Spreading Sea on your land it will hurt you also.
Acidic Slime - This card can remove pesky lands like Mutavault or remove Vials as necessary.
Elderscale Wurm - This one may not show up in a bunch of sideboards, but I cannot see leaving home without it. If you can attrition out to where you're into more mana, Tutoring this up and sticking it can usually just be the key to buying you several turns.
Generally we are attempting to race this deck. It is not ideal but it is something that comes up from time to time.
Note - When sideboarding I tend to take out a lot more Utopia Sprawl then I probably should, but I fear Spreading Sea to much.
Living End: A very interesting matchup.
Scavenging Ooze - This just gobbles up the graveyard. With any sort of devotion you'll be able to eat anything.
Primal Command - In Main - This card is in the main, don't hesitate to fire it off to tempo their land, gain life, or the killer shuffle their graveyard. This with an Eternal Witness loop can be pretty nifty, dodging when they can fire off a cascade card in response though is tricky.
Planeswalkers - I find our planeswalkers are very good to help us continue to have a board presence. Usually none of these are coming in from the board, but using Nissa, Voice of Zendikar is nifty to stall the board.
For living end, there is this weird balance between playing your game plan, and letting them play yours.
Before I buy 4x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar can you guys help me understand why I should or should not get her? A 2 drop (with ramp) walker seems super sweet...but also a bit do nothing.
Seems like if I'm going devotion walkers having some Karn Liberated also seems important. Again...worth the price tag?
I'll go ahead and take a stab at why you would, and would not want to be playing Nissa, Voice of Zendikar. You are right to assume on turn 2, dropping her seems sweet, and if built around it is sweet. She provides multi function here. The trick though is you're likely looking at more of the Hornet Queen and Craterhoof Behemoth routes, versus Tooth and Nail builds. Although she is not entirely doing much initially she is a large target for burn or other creature spells, consider this your 'life gained' by simply being a target. She does awkwardly protect herself, but you can assess if you want to chump an attacker at her to keep putting that pressure of ultimate, or let it through just to make another token. Each token created is a boost to the Hoof plan. There are times where a +1 into a -2 and then possibly another -2 applies so much pressure when you have a bunch of mana dorks, and you can likely just win from there.
With our Utopia Sprawl and Garruk Wildspeaker package we have turns where Arbor Elf with a land and [card]Utopia Sprawl] can churn out a Garruk into Nissa. Netting you a creature. Although you're looking at 1/1 and 0/1, your next turn can make them into 2/2 and 1/2 and you can then boost them to 5/5 and 4/5 and swing with trample. Albeit this is 'all in' on turn three as you Ultimate Garruk, but this is with just two creatures out and you did nothing with your mana. Add a turn in there for a dork, plant, and + up Garruk to put even one more thing out and this combo can win it.
I have not been really disappointed to ever draw her, I am running x2 right now. The only time it is upsetting is after an entire board clear and I'm top decking. For this reason I'm running x2, but am highly considering x3. These are the things she does, but she is a support for other cards, or buys you the time. Don't expect to win off her but on turn 2 this really can set you up nicely for the turn 4 (or sometimes turn 3) combo kill with Hoof. These are my observations thus far.
I've been lurking in this Green Devotion thread now, ever since I opted to hop onto MTGO and watched a streamer with their Green Devotion deck. I've been overly impressed with it, actually preferring to hop into leagues with Green D over Affinity due to my win percentage with both decks (around 100 matches now). The list I'm piloting can be found below, and I'll remark on a few things I've noticed:
The reason I'm slamming this deck is mainly because of my love for Nissa, and specifically the 3 CMC Nissa, Voice of Zendikar. The ultimate goal of this deck is a turn 3 or turn 4 combo kill with Craterhoof Behemoth. Ultimately you're looking to have 3 creatures out the turn you want to Hoof to victory. This is achievable in many facets. Arbor Elf along with a Utopia Sprawl as I'm sure I don't need to inform anyone can turn out a turn two Garruk Wildspeaker, and with that you'll likely get another creature, perhaps Eternal Witness to even get a fetch land to ramp, another mana dork, or even better Nissa. I'm respecting the 3 CMC power level of Planeswalkers so we're going for it. Nissa, Voice of Zendikar has 3 roles which are relevant in our deck. Make a creature to protect and stall. Make a creature before a hoof to be a 'giant growth' or even more across our creatures, when we're struggling to find an answer buff up a few plants and the mana dorks, and in super grindy games get me there by drawing cards to find a win con or way to search for a win con. There is a weird control/stall aspect to this deck if you reach turn 5 - 6 with the "Plow Under" effect of Primal Command and Eternal Witness. The other thing I've done is have a few too many Summoner's Pact in the hand. In this case I treat each like a giant grown, finding Burning-Tree Emissary and on my last cast find the big dude himself.
Right now my hardest match ups are Ad Nauseam, Storm decks, and any deck that wants to run a Pyroclasm. Against Eldrazi/Affinity/Burn/Zoo we're fine. In many cases I'll use a Summoner's Pact to get the creature that brings me the value. This is why Elderscale Wurm (a pet card from my childhood) is in the deck over a worship type package. Although I've considered changing out Red with White for Leyline, since I rarely ever need the Kessig Wolf Run to win the game.
Primeval Titan is actually a card I board out in most games. He's there for value if I'm stuck at 6 in game one, but in game 2/3 he's out for usually hate cards. Hornet Queen stays in for flier based matchups (IE: Affinity), and goes along with our game plan to get tokens for the Hoof. Courser of Kruphix also usually finds itself on the chopping block for cards, been wondering if he needs a better replacement or if he's just fine in the main and stays there if not much needs to change.
I'm finding the lines with Primal Command are never ending where the value shows up, and gaining life is just as good as the ontop and shuffle, as good as the search. Ironically being a Scapeshift Player, I find this command more valuable then Cryptic Command within the Green Devotion Shell, over my Scapeshift Shell. Just something to ponder.
Anyway any recommendations for the sideboard? I need to probably pull an Elderscale Wurm[/card[ for another Scavenging Ooze. I very rarely put Nylea's Disciple in, if I have enough devotion to make him worth while over Baloth, I'm winning. Any ideas on sideboard would be appreciated, I'm at the moment very happy with the Main.
Lots of thoughts, but been watching the thread for some time. Would love any suggestions. Running this on MTGO, will move this to paper shortly and take it to the local FNM. (Yet to get the 5 - 0 with Leagues but I'm a steady 3x or 4x deck thus far with a few 2x's when things fail, variance after all!)
Alright so I've gone completely White, dropping my previous Swamp + Slaughter Games from the board. I found in most cases, I just needed some way to gain just a touch more life to get that 1 - 2 cards down and win. I'm also giving the Voidslime card a try.
Last night I was able to snap in 5 games, winning all of them. They were against:
U Tron, Agent of Bolas deck?, Burn, Smallpox + B/W Token, Affinity
Each of these games were in the 2 man queues for points, as noted jank or not jank this is what I'm seeing. For whatever reason I do see a lot more Black Discard then before. I'm slightly more impressed with Mwonvuli Acid-Moss then I originally thought, though I still leave Crumble in. My fear of running Mwonvuli over Hunting Wilds is I am lacking an 'alternate' win con in the main, though it has proved to not be necessary. Ranger + Dragonmaster was key against B/W Tokens, you make a faerie, I make a dragon :). Voidslime is over performing, and Mana Leak is about 50/50 with the remand it replaced. I've Voidslimed some weird stuff and just by the delay of what is going on through MTGO, I can tell that my opponent is completely off guard when it happens. That in itself is worth running it, will continue to see if I have any issues running it.
The biggest thing I am seeing is people like to crumble one of our Red Sources. Also this may have been just some luck but no one really does know how to work Ghost quarter against us. I was battling to get enough lands against someone who I thought was holding up 2 Ghost Quarters to prevent me from going off... They then randomly hit my Flooded Grove and made it really easy to go off. Will continue to test!
I like to read about the difference between RUG and BTL. But do we forget what turn we can play our BTL? It is 5 mana. It will come turn 4, mayby turn 3 with the best hand possible. But it is quit Obvious that it will come after turn 4. We are dead against Zoo, Burn and Affinity if we need to cast it. So Pia and Kiran Nalaar are cute against those decks, but it will not save us. Most version's don't play any bolt so it is realy vaunarable against all the aggro plans.
But next to that, the SB gives lots and lots of possibilities. Black or White. My guess is after reading back that black isn't such a good option any more. People talk about Maelstrom Pulse, when we can have Krosan Grip for all the Blood moons and Leylines. Black gives us some versitility around Slaughter Games. But that's it. Ye Damnation, but Wrath does the same. What gives white the advantage over black? It could be Timely Reinforcments. But again, turn 4... The Regular build of RUG gives so much control game 1. The Electrolyze gives some advantage over the affinity matchup and is quit good against infect to. I still have my RUG version sleeved and ready to play. I am not realy sure about the BTL. jet.
I rarely lose to a Zoo, Burn, or Affinity matchup before turn 4. Similar to your comment about our BTL has a 'chance' to show up turn 3, they have a 'chance' to kill us before turn 4 with their more explosive hands. I cannot tell you how frustrating it actually is to sit there wishing for Anger of the Gods in game 2 with RUG. This is literally the reason I am playing BTL, and have yet to be disappointed. Albeit game 2 and 3 if needed are usually hard against aggro because they don't flood the board, game 1 is usually them racing cause if you have a main deck answer you have it and they need to go under, if you do not they're just going to run you over. I do find it interesting though to see what BTL versions you are looking at. I run x4 Lightning Bolt, x4 Izzet Charm and the obvious x4 Sakura-Tribe Elder. The less obviously are a main deck x1 Repeal, x1 Snapcaster Mage and main deck x1 Anger of the Gods. I'm listing all of these because in every match up I have 14/60 cards to help with damage to my face. Burn is the unique matchup, in which case we are usually running the Remand package and Izzet charm package anyway, so stopping a bolt,helix, or other spell can buy us a turn or two.
With that being said with 23.3% of the deck basically able to block 2 - 3 damage, or hit a creature to prevent the 2-3 damage I'd have a hard time seeing you get killed by turn 4. But if that is the case, then the listed match ups are not much different then the fear of Twin, or in other words fear of no answer by Turn 4 you lose.
I've only just started playing BTL over RUG, taking RUG to many more tournaments before switching over to try out BTL. I am missing a Wrath effect in the board, and since Eldrazi are big now Anger may not cut it all the way. It is going to be either Wrath of God or Supreme Verdict and although Supreme is 'harder' to cast, I would argue in our setup it should not be, the double white is the difficult part not the blue, both are 4CMC targets for BTL.
What version are you running that lacks bolt? I still think bolt is highly essential, but also can be with izzet charms the first things you cut when sideboarding.
You guys just pointed out a great card: Mwonvuli Acid Moss. I was planning to run Crumble to Dust instead because of its permeant solution to Tron peaces and such. This however delay them while revving our plan.
Is it worth it? Im gonna try this weekeend
Although the ramp is nice, I find that Crumble is just back breaking for some decks, where a simple 'destroy that land' is just not going to do much. An example, just finished an MTGO game against American (Jeskai) Control. He literally ghost quartered his own Hallowed Fountain I went after to avoid losing the rest of them. The greed of some decks makes Crumble almost act like a psuedo Blood Moon. I'm actually quite tempted to slam it into my Main board. I think you're not getting enough value off of the ramp from the card you mentioned. Just my 2 cents.
The problem with Trickbind is that it's too narrow. With Voidslime, you can counter Wurmcoil or Karn as well as shut down Eldrazi. It's also useful in other match-ups, for example burn (as a hard counter).
So maybe I'm missing something but how exactly are we planning to use Voidslime against Eldrazi decks? Is the idea that it is either a hard counter, or if we are just a turn away from going off that we can prevent the activated ability of say Ulamog the Ceaseless hunger versus countering or remanding it as our normal game plan? Basically is it solely for the option, or are we trying to do something else with this that I'm completely missing?
How is Dragonmaster Outcast working for everyone? I currently run Obsinate Baloths and a Surrak Dragonclaw in my sideboard. I just feel like although it gives a lot of value, isn't it hard to protect being a 1/1?
Game 2 is usually an 'awkward' blowout. I seem and here from my opponent as we either complete the game or go to game 3 depending on the 1st game results that they 'took all their removal out' or had so little that when I land 1 - 2 of them they're praying for their removal and not their main game plan. Being thoughtseized and my opponent seeing Dragonmaster and Slaughter Games was torn between the two (I went super greedy boarding in white and black, which I would not recommend) Usually with a counter or two you'll at least have a 5/5 flier by the next turn. If both resolve and both exist, it is usually lights out. The fliers are great and get around sometimes the ground armies that our baloth cannot get around. That being said, there are a few match ups that I wish I had a 2nd baloth or something else to 'gain life' in which case I've considered Timely Reinforcements as well, attempting to stay in the more 'white' realm of things.
I've got a sideboard plan that includes Ranger of Eos and x2 Dragonmaster Outcast. BTL for the ranger, or naturally draw one of the three cards. After a ranger and reveal you can usually put them down next turn with counter backup, and this also means the counter is there to protect them and they need two removals if you can land both or you're making dragons, and who doesn't like dragons
Interesting. I run the black variant of BtL Scapeshift and this is the first thing I've seen to make me question that and switch to white. What exactly does your list look like?
The deck is from Heibing, was watching him stream and picked it up. Swap an Ojutai's Command for another Izzet Charm and that's the list, I also swapped out the Glen Elendra Archmage for a Supreme Verdict, more because I could not find one before some events I've been going to. The Supreme verdict is rough to cast but is doable. The black comes in for the plains if you're needing to go for Slaughter Games. http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/356496#online
so after testing over night, I feel that gift vs. BTL is really a tough call.
My thoughts on gift is that it's more proactive, and you need to plan your game ahead.
I almost never use gift on finding ramp spells. Always put it on win-con search. in the meantime, leave mana open for counters/burn
On the other hand, BTL is more of a "ramp to UUU, 4 color, and top-deck win"
I constantly use BTL to find the RIGHT answer to current problem (but 50/50 there's nothing I can do), or simply ramp with Hunting Wilds, then wait to topdeck another BTL/scapeshift...
no sure.... maybe I play the deck wrong?
On the side, what's the best alternative wincon you guys would suggest besides Obstinate Baloth?
There were quite a bit times I got screwed by my opponent taking out all my scapeshift, forbidding me casting scapeshift, or just playing multiple leylines.....
I've got a sideboard plan that includes Ranger of Eos and x2 Dragonmaster Outcast. BTL for the ranger, or naturally draw one of the three cards. After a ranger and reveal you can usually put them down next turn with counter backup, and this also means the counter is there to protect them and they need two removals if you can land both or you're making dragons, and who doesn't like dragons
Your Cloudstone Curio deck intrigues me (along with your write ups) but why are you not running 4? I play a Green Devotion BTE/Pact Combo to get Hoof and swing for a victory. Just seemed odd that if the combo apparently need Curio it is not being run, unless I am missing something else, or that the alternate plan of beating down just works as well sometimes.
Also Genesis Hydra and Balista is a bit of a non-bo, wondering on your opinions of these cards together.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=102500
I like to think I'm getting up there in the Veteran Status of playing Scapeshift, and a true advocate for BTL-White. I literally thought I'd give this a shot to try cause I have a State Champ thing coming up. First League, 5-0, First Time I've 5-0ed (Many 4-1s with BTL-W). I think I'll be ordering my Damnation and Maelstrom Pulse tonight :)!
Congrats! Exciting to hear
I've got a Modern No Ban List coming up. I've thought about jamming a lot of things and then thought, why not jam a MNBL Scapeshift Deck. I'm thinking traditional RUG with some good cantrips and seeing my friend Dig through Time again. Any thoughts on what to modify from some of the traditional builds? Bolt any good in a No ban list meta ya think?
4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Utopia Sprawl
Value Creature (Devotion Creature)
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
Card Advantage
4 Oath of NIssa
2 Courser of Kruphix
3 Eternal Witness
Ramp or Creatures (Alternate Win Con)
2 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
Find the Answer/Stall
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Primal Command
1 Primeval Titan
1 Hornet Queen
THE Win Con
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
Lands
6 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Stomping Ground
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Crumble to Dust
2 Choke
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Acidic Slime
1 Elderscale Wurm
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Spellskite
Recent Sideboard Changes
-2 Boil
-1 Crumble to Dust
-1 Elderscale Wurm
-1 Nylea's Disciple
+2 Choke
+1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
+2 Bonfire of the Damned
The changes to the sideboard come from these obbservations:
There is a lot of discussion between Geist/BTE, and I'd like to give my two cents. I feel if you're going Combo like in your build and using Summoner's Pact, BTE is an auto-include over Geist. My reasoning is that we in many ways want to skip the 2 CMC slot. BTE allows us to skip it while dumping our hand, where a Geist locks us out of Mana for a turn in many cases and can feel awkward in the hand. If my main goal is to kill with Craterhoof Behemoth a geist getting in for even 4 - 6 damage honestly won't make much of a difference. With 'staying power creatures' I would always recommend Kitchen Finks over the Geist.
I'll have to come back to this, but I'd like to say where I feel Genesis Wave, Tooth and Nail, and Pact/Command drives each person. I'd rank them as:
Wave: Hyper Ramp / Go over the Top
Tooth and Nail: Combo Kill Oriented / Attrition
Pact/Command: Combo Kill/Combo Control
There is an argument to be an Aggro deck, but I feel if you are truly focusing on these game plans, the most aggro of these is the Wave plan. I call it more "Hyper Ramp" though because you're looking to aggro big things, not necessarily the small aggro that is custom to say. I'll post more later when I have a chance!
Tron matchups are interesting.
Tron: Here our options are
Green Devotion is remarkable competitive and has a lot more avenues of play then simply jam big dudes. The Tooth and Nail variant I feel is a little more all in on the larger creatures where more Planeswalker and Creature combos can hang. As for the faster decks, Elves is likely the hardest matchup, and the others you mention are rough but do-able pre-board. Post-board we have so many ways to tutor up life gain or flood the board that we should be fine. It is not impossible in some builds to kill on turn 3. This is my biggest argument for Burning-Tree Emissary over Strangleroot Geist.
Planewalker route is certainly an interesting one. I don't believe you would need Doubling Season to be competitive. You're already going to be challenging them to keep up with your walkers, adding a card that presents a threat but does not produce a threat immediately is where I'd look at it, that being said obviously multiple Planeswalkers of the same type are not ideal either. Throw one in for a try but I have this gut feeling you will be boarding it out more then you think. I do not play the planeswalker build.
I like a lot of this, I am not sold on the Strangleroot Geist personally as I look to combo a bit more then apply pressure. The staying power of both Strangleroot Geist and Kitchen Finks is some serious power though, I am even considering the Finks myself. I think here is where I'll toss out my idea. Dropping x2 Courser of Kruphix for x2 Kitchen Finks to go along with a 1 of Wilt-Leaf Liege in the sideboard. Something I just want to give a shot, and may so after reading this.
Although I have not tested it, I have 2 on the way. If I were to go this route (see above comment) I'd likely keep Courser's in instead of making my swap. At this point I would be tempted a bit to find one more enchantment type creature to help along the package so I'm getting full value when I drop them.
Alright UEGJO gave you the Tooth and Nail perspective. I'll give the Green Devotion version (Running Summoner's Pact and Primal Command).
Infect: Here our options are
Merfolk: Here our options are
Living End: A very interesting matchup.
I'll go ahead and take a stab at why you would, and would not want to be playing Nissa, Voice of Zendikar. You are right to assume on turn 2, dropping her seems sweet, and if built around it is sweet. She provides multi function here. The trick though is you're likely looking at more of the Hornet Queen and Craterhoof Behemoth routes, versus Tooth and Nail builds. Although she is not entirely doing much initially she is a large target for burn or other creature spells, consider this your 'life gained' by simply being a target. She does awkwardly protect herself, but you can assess if you want to chump an attacker at her to keep putting that pressure of ultimate, or let it through just to make another token. Each token created is a boost to the Hoof plan. There are times where a +1 into a -2 and then possibly another -2 applies so much pressure when you have a bunch of mana dorks, and you can likely just win from there.
With our Utopia Sprawl and Garruk Wildspeaker package we have turns where Arbor Elf with a land and [card]Utopia Sprawl] can churn out a Garruk into Nissa. Netting you a creature. Although you're looking at 1/1 and 0/1, your next turn can make them into 2/2 and 1/2 and you can then boost them to 5/5 and 4/5 and swing with trample. Albeit this is 'all in' on turn three as you Ultimate Garruk, but this is with just two creatures out and you did nothing with your mana. Add a turn in there for a dork, plant, and + up Garruk to put even one more thing out and this combo can win it.
I have not been really disappointed to ever draw her, I am running x2 right now. The only time it is upsetting is after an entire board clear and I'm top decking. For this reason I'm running x2, but am highly considering x3. These are the things she does, but she is a support for other cards, or buys you the time. Don't expect to win off her but on turn 2 this really can set you up nicely for the turn 4 (or sometimes turn 3) combo kill with Hoof. These are my observations thus far.
4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Utopia Sprawl
Value Creature (Devotion Creature)
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
Card Advantage
4 Oath of NIssa
2 Courser of Kruphix
3 Eternal Witness
Ramp or Creatures (Alternate Win Con)
2 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
Find the Answer/Stall
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Primal Command
1 Primeval Titan
1 Hornet Queen
THE Win Con
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
Lands
6 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Stomping Ground
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Boil
2 Crumble to Dust
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Acidic Slime
2 Elderscale Wurm
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Nylea's Disciple
1 Spellskite
The reason I'm slamming this deck is mainly because of my love for Nissa, and specifically the 3 CMC Nissa, Voice of Zendikar. The ultimate goal of this deck is a turn 3 or turn 4 combo kill with Craterhoof Behemoth. Ultimately you're looking to have 3 creatures out the turn you want to Hoof to victory. This is achievable in many facets. Arbor Elf along with a Utopia Sprawl as I'm sure I don't need to inform anyone can turn out a turn two Garruk Wildspeaker, and with that you'll likely get another creature, perhaps Eternal Witness to even get a fetch land to ramp, another mana dork, or even better Nissa. I'm respecting the 3 CMC power level of Planeswalkers so we're going for it. Nissa, Voice of Zendikar has 3 roles which are relevant in our deck. Make a creature to protect and stall. Make a creature before a hoof to be a 'giant growth' or even more across our creatures, when we're struggling to find an answer buff up a few plants and the mana dorks, and in super grindy games get me there by drawing cards to find a win con or way to search for a win con. There is a weird control/stall aspect to this deck if you reach turn 5 - 6 with the "Plow Under" effect of Primal Command and Eternal Witness. The other thing I've done is have a few too many Summoner's Pact in the hand. In this case I treat each like a giant grown, finding Burning-Tree Emissary and on my last cast find the big dude himself.
Right now my hardest match ups are Ad Nauseam, Storm decks, and any deck that wants to run a Pyroclasm. Against Eldrazi/Affinity/Burn/Zoo we're fine. In many cases I'll use a Summoner's Pact to get the creature that brings me the value. This is why Elderscale Wurm (a pet card from my childhood) is in the deck over a worship type package. Although I've considered changing out Red with White for Leyline, since I rarely ever need the Kessig Wolf Run to win the game.
Primeval Titan is actually a card I board out in most games. He's there for value if I'm stuck at 6 in game one, but in game 2/3 he's out for usually hate cards. Hornet Queen stays in for flier based matchups (IE: Affinity), and goes along with our game plan to get tokens for the Hoof. Courser of Kruphix also usually finds itself on the chopping block for cards, been wondering if he needs a better replacement or if he's just fine in the main and stays there if not much needs to change.
I'm finding the lines with Primal Command are never ending where the value shows up, and gaining life is just as good as the ontop and shuffle, as good as the search. Ironically being a Scapeshift Player, I find this command more valuable then Cryptic Command within the Green Devotion Shell, over my Scapeshift Shell. Just something to ponder.
Anyway any recommendations for the sideboard? I need to probably pull an Elderscale Wurm[/card[ for another Scavenging Ooze. I very rarely put Nylea's Disciple in, if I have enough devotion to make him worth while over Baloth, I'm winning. Any ideas on sideboard would be appreciated, I'm at the moment very happy with the Main.
Lots of thoughts, but been watching the thread for some time. Would love any suggestions. Running this on MTGO, will move this to paper shortly and take it to the local FNM. (Yet to get the 5 - 0 with Leagues but I'm a steady 3x or 4x deck thus far with a few 2x's when things fail, variance after all!)
Credits to 'Mooff' (I believe from Twitch)
Agree, the Theory is strong with this thread
Current Iteration of Deck
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Mana Leak
3 Remand
1 Farseek
2 Izzet Charm
2 Voidslime
4 Cryptic Command
1 Repeal
4 Search for Tomorrow
3 Scapeshift
1 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
3 Bring to Light
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Grove
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Steam Vents
4 Stomping Ground
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Island
2 Mountain
1 Plains
Sideboard
1 Ranger of Eos
2 Dispel
1 Negate
2 Dragonmaster Outcast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Krosan Grip
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wear//Tear
Alright so I've gone completely White, dropping my previous Swamp + Slaughter Games from the board. I found in most cases, I just needed some way to gain just a touch more life to get that 1 - 2 cards down and win. I'm also giving the Voidslime card a try.
Last night I was able to snap in 5 games, winning all of them. They were against:
U Tron, Agent of Bolas deck?, Burn, Smallpox + B/W Token, Affinity
Each of these games were in the 2 man queues for points, as noted jank or not jank this is what I'm seeing. For whatever reason I do see a lot more Black Discard then before. I'm slightly more impressed with Mwonvuli Acid-Moss then I originally thought, though I still leave Crumble in. My fear of running Mwonvuli over Hunting Wilds is I am lacking an 'alternate' win con in the main, though it has proved to not be necessary. Ranger + Dragonmaster was key against B/W Tokens, you make a faerie, I make a dragon :). Voidslime is over performing, and Mana Leak is about 50/50 with the remand it replaced. I've Voidslimed some weird stuff and just by the delay of what is going on through MTGO, I can tell that my opponent is completely off guard when it happens. That in itself is worth running it, will continue to see if I have any issues running it.
The biggest thing I am seeing is people like to crumble one of our Red Sources. Also this may have been just some luck but no one really does know how to work Ghost quarter against us. I was battling to get enough lands against someone who I thought was holding up 2 Ghost Quarters to prevent me from going off... They then randomly hit my Flooded Grove and made it really easy to go off. Will continue to test!
I rarely lose to a Zoo, Burn, or Affinity matchup before turn 4. Similar to your comment about our BTL has a 'chance' to show up turn 3, they have a 'chance' to kill us before turn 4 with their more explosive hands. I cannot tell you how frustrating it actually is to sit there wishing for Anger of the Gods in game 2 with RUG. This is literally the reason I am playing BTL, and have yet to be disappointed. Albeit game 2 and 3 if needed are usually hard against aggro because they don't flood the board, game 1 is usually them racing cause if you have a main deck answer you have it and they need to go under, if you do not they're just going to run you over. I do find it interesting though to see what BTL versions you are looking at. I run x4 Lightning Bolt, x4 Izzet Charm and the obvious x4 Sakura-Tribe Elder. The less obviously are a main deck x1 Repeal, x1 Snapcaster Mage and main deck x1 Anger of the Gods. I'm listing all of these because in every match up I have 14/60 cards to help with damage to my face. Burn is the unique matchup, in which case we are usually running the Remand package and Izzet charm package anyway, so stopping a bolt,helix, or other spell can buy us a turn or two.
With that being said with 23.3% of the deck basically able to block 2 - 3 damage, or hit a creature to prevent the 2-3 damage I'd have a hard time seeing you get killed by turn 4. But if that is the case, then the listed match ups are not much different then the fear of Twin, or in other words fear of no answer by Turn 4 you lose.
I've only just started playing BTL over RUG, taking RUG to many more tournaments before switching over to try out BTL. I am missing a Wrath effect in the board, and since Eldrazi are big now Anger may not cut it all the way. It is going to be either Wrath of God or Supreme Verdict and although Supreme is 'harder' to cast, I would argue in our setup it should not be, the double white is the difficult part not the blue, both are 4CMC targets for BTL.
What version are you running that lacks bolt? I still think bolt is highly essential, but also can be with izzet charms the first things you cut when sideboarding.
Although the ramp is nice, I find that Crumble is just back breaking for some decks, where a simple 'destroy that land' is just not going to do much. An example, just finished an MTGO game against American (Jeskai) Control. He literally ghost quartered his own Hallowed Fountain I went after to avoid losing the rest of them. The greed of some decks makes Crumble almost act like a psuedo Blood Moon. I'm actually quite tempted to slam it into my Main board. I think you're not getting enough value off of the ramp from the card you mentioned. Just my 2 cents.
So maybe I'm missing something but how exactly are we planning to use Voidslime against Eldrazi decks? Is the idea that it is either a hard counter, or if we are just a turn away from going off that we can prevent the activated ability of say Ulamog the Ceaseless hunger versus countering or remanding it as our normal game plan? Basically is it solely for the option, or are we trying to do something else with this that I'm completely missing?
Game 2 is usually an 'awkward' blowout. I seem and here from my opponent as we either complete the game or go to game 3 depending on the 1st game results that they 'took all their removal out' or had so little that when I land 1 - 2 of them they're praying for their removal and not their main game plan. Being thoughtseized and my opponent seeing Dragonmaster and Slaughter Games was torn between the two (I went super greedy boarding in white and black, which I would not recommend) Usually with a counter or two you'll at least have a 5/5 flier by the next turn. If both resolve and both exist, it is usually lights out. The fliers are great and get around sometimes the ground armies that our baloth cannot get around. That being said, there are a few match ups that I wish I had a 2nd baloth or something else to 'gain life' in which case I've considered Timely Reinforcements as well, attempting to stay in the more 'white' realm of things.
The deck is from Heibing, was watching him stream and picked it up. Swap an Ojutai's Command for another Izzet Charm and that's the list, I also swapped out the Glen Elendra Archmage for a Supreme Verdict, more because I could not find one before some events I've been going to. The Supreme verdict is rough to cast but is doable. The black comes in for the plains if you're needing to go for Slaughter Games.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/356496#online
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Snapcaster Mage
Spells (30)
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Repeal
1 Farseek
4 Izzet Charm
4 Remand
1 Anger of the Gods
4 Search for Tomorrow
4 Cryptic Command
1 Hunting Wilds
3 Scapeshift
3 Bring to Light
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Grove
2 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Steam Vents
4 Stomping Ground
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Dispel
2 Dragonmaster Outcast
2 Swan Song
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Slaughter Games
1 Swamp
I've got a sideboard plan that includes Ranger of Eos and x2 Dragonmaster Outcast. BTL for the ranger, or naturally draw one of the three cards. After a ranger and reveal you can usually put them down next turn with counter backup, and this also means the counter is there to protect them and they need two removals if you can land both or you're making dragons, and who doesn't like dragons