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  • posted a message on Most Damage without going infinite: ZNR-SNC Standard Edition
    Nice, getting Arlinn early like that is great.

    Getting the Arlinn emblem is the only piece of setup we can't do at instant speed (using Tibalt's Trickery when necessary). So I think we can get access to all 4 stages and the layers up to red mana quickly and still have 10 or 11 treasures left with the Thieves' Tools on the stack.


    Start by casting For the Family, targeting Sea Gate Stormcaller. Create one token. Cast another FtF targeting SGS. Create two tokens then resolve the SGS ability to put a FtF copy on the stack. Then cast Tibalt's Trickery, getting two copies. Those 3 TTs can target the 3 FtFs on the stack. We spent 4 mana so far.

    Resolve the first TT to cast Bury in Books on Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant. (Tokens are created and one sticks around.) Resolve the second TT to cast Jin. Spend two mana to copy the Jin spell with Double Major. (The spell is copied by Jin and we get 2 tokens.) Spend another mana on FtF targeting the non-legendary Jin to get 17 copies. (Resolve the 2nd Double Major and the original Jin afterwards, so they stay fresh.)

    Resolve the 3rd TT to cast a Bloody Betrayal, getting 19 copies from the fresh Jins. This untaps Xorn 20 times to get us 20 WUG mana.

    12 treasures are left. We can use the 20 WUG mana to put more counterable spells on the stack before casting the next TT. We need to cast Mage's Attendant to keep the original instants moving while copies are on the stack. It is probably worth it to animate the swamp here and make some progress from that.


    I suspect it is possible to get access to everything after cracking only one more treasure for TT. But worst case we need two treasures and still have 10 left.

    Edit:
    Duh, no Jin-Gitaxias copies we get from targeting it with Bury in Books can stick around without sending the original to the graveyard and fizzling the BiB. So we don't get a copy of Double Major and end up with one less WUG mana.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    The front-side of Search for Blex is Blex, Vexing Pest, which goes infinite by gaining tons of life when Dual Nature tokens die to legend rule.

    I think Revel in Silence would go infinite since we can get the front-side out of the graveyard with Bloodbond March. So cast Flamescroll Celebrant, get BM triggers, bounce it back to hand, cast the back-side, profit, resolve BM trigger to get the card to the battlefield and bounce it again.

    That play pattern pretty much rules out all modal double faced cards with creatures on the front side. We can also get artifacts, enchantments and lands back to hand from the graveyard, which rules out those.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most Damage without going infinite: ZNR-SNC Standard Edition
    With Vanquish the Weak we should be able to cut the Forest. It was needed to generate green mana at the top of W stage. But black mana is basically free there, and with Vanquish the Weak that extends to reusing instants and generating copies of instants. So we only need 1 green to cast Roiling Regrowth and we can generate 2 green with landfall triggers from our 2 basics:

    Start with a Path to the World Tree layer on the stack, Snow-Covered Swamp and Plains in hand, Skyclave Shade in the graveyard:
    1. put the swamp into play. Resolve the landfall trigger and cast Skyclave Shade. Tap it for G.
    2. use G to cast Roiling Regrowth getting a bunch of copies. Resolve a copy to sacrifice Skyclave Shade.
    3. put the plains into play. Resolve the landfall trigger and cast Skyclave Shade. Tap them for WG.
    4. resolve more Roiling Regrowth copies to sacrifice Skyclave Shade and both basics.
    5. use W to cast Thraben Exorcism on Boseiju Reaches Skyward. That gets both basics into the library.
    (6.) resolve 2 trigger form the layer on the stack to get the basics back to hand.

    So we generate G for every two Orvar triggers on Path to the World Tree. Enough to accumulate X green before putting a big G stage on the stack.

    We now need the Snow-Covered Swamp throughout the combo, so we can't exile it to Culmination of Studies anymore. But playing an extra exilable instant/sorcery instead of the Forest is way better.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most Damage without going infinite: ZNR-SNC Standard Edition
    I don't think Vanquish the Weak can go infinite. It can target and destroy Skyclave Shade if we don't use flash for creatures, but that in itself doesn't do anything. Skyclave Shade only gets dangerous once it taps for green, and to do that we need to resolve the trigger it gets from First day of Class. The moment it gets haste it also gets +1/+1 and gets out of reach for Vanquish the Weak.

    So we can use Vanquish the Weak + Choose your Weapon instead of Plummet + Mammoth Growth, which is a cool idea. By itself it doesn't seem to do anything, except rule out Weigh Down from the exilable spells. But if we could target Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant with Vanquish the Weak, then we could generate copies of our instants cheap enough and wouldn't need Rowan, Scholar of Sparks anymore.

    And I think that can be achieved with Croaking Counterpart. That + Double Major can produce a non-legendary 1/1 Frog-Gitaxias in the start and later get exiled. So we can get to 10 -> 10 -> 10 -> 10 -> 10 -> 18 -> 9.

    I don't think it is possible to get a 1/1 Snow-Covered Swamp with Croaking Counterpart and Avalanche Caller. Since the Swamp copies wouldn't be creatures until we animate them individually. But if I missed something and it is possible to get a swamp that we can target with Vanquish the Weak, then that goes infinite.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most Damage without going infinite: ZNR-SNC Standard Edition
    I got the start down to 6 exiles.

    Turn 1:
    Play Shatterskull, the Hammer Pass untapped. (17 life)
    Cast Goldhound.

    Turn 2:
    Play Forest.
    Cast For the Family targeting Goldhound. Leave it on the stack.
    Tap the remaining land and sacrifice the Goldhound to cast Tibalt's Trickery, targeting the For the Family. Counter it, mill 3 cards, then exile and cast Wizard's Spellbook. (3 cards in hand)

    1st Exile: Invoke the Winds. Untap the Spellbook.
    2nd Exile: Turntimber Symbiosis. Fetch Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. Get back For the Family. (4 cards in hand) Untap the Spellbook.
    3rd Exile: Turntimber Symbiosis. Fetch Ashaya, Soul of the Wild and Xorn. Untap the Spellbook.
    4th Exile: Tibalt's Trickery. Fetch Avalanche Caller. Mill 1 and cast Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider. Untap the Spellbook.

    5th Exile: Lorehold Command. Fetch Sea Gate Stormcaller. Untap the Spellbook. Command gives all creatures indestructible and haste, and we sacrifice a land to draw 2 (6 cards in hand). Resolve Tibalt's Trickery to mill 1 and cast Orvar, the All-Form. Keep it on the stack.

    Tap 5 of the creatures for 5 green mana. Exile Spara's Adjudicators from hand and let Xorn tap for blue (GGGU, 5 cards in hand)
    Cast Double Major targeting the Orvar spell, get a SGS copy, resolve all of them. (3 Orvars, GG, 4 cards in hand)
    Cast For the Family twice, targeting Orvar (9 Orvars, 2 cards in hand)

    6th Exile: Bloody Betrayal. Build stack to look like this:
    -----------
    8x Orvar token creation
    9x Aberrant Mind Sorcerer token creation
    Bloody Betrayal (targeting Aberrant Mind Sorcerer)
    Lorehold Command (targeting Orvar + indestructible, haste)
    Invoke the Winds (targeting Wizard's Spellbook)
    Turntimber Symbiosis
    Tibalt's Trickery (targeting Turntimber Symbiosis)
    Turntimber Symbiosis
    -----------

    Resolve down until the spellbook untaps. Tap Orvar and the Mind Sorcerer for GG, get instants and sorceries back (9 Orvars, GG, 2 cards in hand + 9ish instants/sorceries)
    Cast For the Family 2 times, targeting Orvar and then Xorn (17 Orvars, 18 Xorns)
    Resolve Turntimber Symbiosis to fetch Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant.
    Resolve Tibalt's Trickery, mill 1 and cast Thieves' Tools. Get a Jin copy and let the copy resolve. Get 19 treasures.


    In response to the original Thieves' Tools we can use those 19 treasures to increase the Xorn count. Doing the simple thing and doubling Orvars 17 times we get to more than 2^21 Xorns. We are missing the Arlinn, the Pack's Hope emblem, so we can't really get the G stage going, but we can probably do better than doubling.

    Resolve the Thieves' Tools to get more than 2^21 treasures. Certainly enough to get access to the entire combo quickly and then go through it.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most Damage without going infinite: ZNR-SNC Standard Edition
    Oh, casting Lithoform Engine for the first time has the same power as exiling an instant/sorcery. So we reach 10 -> 10 -> 10 -> 10 -> 10 -> 18 -> 8.

    Edit: Ah, I didn't notice that your previous list had 61 cards, so 10 -> 10 -> 10 -> 10 -> 10 -> 17 -> 8 should be correct.

    I used 2 copies of Double Major for the start, so another one should be among the "exilable spells". Though apart from the spells used during the start the composition of those doesn't really matter. I think there is still enough room to have one of them be Culmination of Studies for that little bit of extra value we get from exiling the Snow-Covered Swamp.

    Edit:
    Weigh Down is an exilable spell that gives us some miniscule improvement by turning superfluous creature cards into green mana, which is worth slightly more than the black it costs Wink

    For a more serious improvement, can we use Rem Karolus, Stalwart Slayer, Unleash the Inferno and Meeting of the Five instead of Markov Retribution to get an additional layer?

    Edit2: Err, Cabaretti Charm + Meeting of the Five would be easier and one less card.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most Damage without going infinite: ZNR-SNC Standard Edition
    I meant we need 2 Rowan, Scholar of Sparks emblems. So even a single cast of Confront the Past would be enough, afterwards it can be exiled. Though it could also be used to get planeswalkers without paying expensive colors for the start, so we can have the emblems ready before casting Thieves' Tools.


    What would be the problem with fetching Rowan? getting extra emblems from the -4 wouldn't hurt anything. And the -1 deals damage to the opponent. We can't deal excess damage to them without ending the game, so this can never trigger Toralf, God of Fury. And it is limited by the opponents life anyway.

    Getting Will, Scholar of Frost to draw cards could be bad. But we don't have a cheap way to get that one back into the graveyard. And as it is the back-side of the card I don't think we can get him with Confront the Past anyway.


    Edit:
    We don't need Vault Robber anymore, we start with treasures from Thieves' Tools.

    Valakut Awakening can be exiled after leaving a copy on the stack. To reuse Thieves' Tools we then spend 2 Lithoform Engines. One to copy Spectral Steel's ability and one to copy Valakut Awakening.

    So I think we have 16 exilable spells after the start to reach 10 -> 10 -> 10 -> 10 -> 10 -> 17 -> 8.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most Damage without going infinite: ZNR-SNC Standard Edition
    I think I have a 7 exile start with Double Major:

    Turn 1:
    Play Shatterskull, the Hammer Pass untapped. (17 life)
    Turn 1:
    Play Shatterskull, the Hammer Pass untapped. (17 life)
    Cast Goldhound.

    Turn 2:
    Play Forest.
    Cast For the Family targeting Goldhound. Leave it on the stack.
    Tap the remaining land and sacrifice the Goldhound to cast Tibalt's Trickery, targeting the For the Family. Counter it, mill 3 cards, then exile and cast Wizard's Spellbook. (3 cards in hand)

    1st Exile: Invoke the Winds. Untap the Spellbook.
    2nd Exile: Turntimber Symbiosis. Fetch Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. Get back For the Family. (4 cards in hand) Untap the Spellbook.
    3rd Exile: Turntimber Symbiosis. Fetch Ashaya, Soul of the Wild and Xorn. Untap the Spellbook.
    4th Exile: Tibalt's Trickery. Fetch Avalanche Caller and Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider. Mill 1. Untap the Spellbook.

    5th Exile: Lorehold Command. Fetch Sea Gate Stormcaller. Untap the Spellbook. Command gives all creatures indestructible and haste, and we sacrifice a land to draw 2 (6 cards in hand). Resolve Tibalt's Trickery to cast Orvar, the All-Form. Keep it on the stack.

    Tap 5 of the creatures for 5 green mana. Exile Spara's Adjudicators from hand and let Sea Gate Stormcaller tap for blue (GGGU, 5 cards in hand)
    Cast Double Major targeting the Orvar spell, get a SGS copy, resolve all of them. (3 Orvars, GG, 4 cards in hand)

    6th Exile: Tibalt's Trickery. Build stack to look like this:
    -----------
    2x Orvar token creation
    Lorehold Command (targeting Orvar + indestructible, haste)
    Invoke the Winds (targeting Wizard's Spellbook)
    Tibalt's Trickery (targeting Turntimber Symbiosis)
    Tibalt's Trickery (targeting Turntimber Symbiosis)
    Turntimber Symbiosis
    Turntimber Symbiosis
    -----------

    Resolve down to the first trickery and tap Orvar for G (5 Orvars, GGG, 4 cards in hand)
    Cast For the Family twice, targeting Orvar (17 Orvars, G, 2 cards in hand)
    Resolve Tibalt's Trickery, mill 1 and cast Bloody Betrayal, targeting Sea Gate Stormcaller. Get 17 token copies. Untap it and tap for U
    Resolve Tibalt's Trickery, mill 1 and cast Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant. In response cast Double Major and get 17 SGS copies. Let everything resolve to end up with 19 Jins. (1 card in hand)

    7th Exile: Bloody Betrayal. Build stack to look like this:
    -----------
    19x Jin copy of Bloody Betrayal
    32x Orvar token creation
    Invoke the Winds (targeting Wizard's Spellbook)
    Tibalt's Trickery (targeting Turntimber Symbiosis)
    Tibalt's Trickery (targeting Bloody Betrayal)
    Turntimber Symbiosis
    Lorehold Command (targeting Orvar + indestructible, haste)
    Turntimber Symbiosis
    Bloody Betrayal (targeting Orvar)
    -----------

    Resolve down to the Tibalt's Trickeries, tapping creatures for 19 more mana and going up to 49 Orvars. Use all that mana on For the Family: Aberrant Mind Sorcerer, 17x Orvar, Jin. This gets us to 3*2^21+1=6291457 Orvars and as many fresh Jins.

    Then we cast Bloody Betrayal of Tibalt's Trickery to get more mana and do it again: more than 2^6291479 Orvars and fresh Jins.

    We have another Tibalt's Trickery to go to more than 2^2^6291479 Orvars, Jins and Xorns.

    Resolve Turntimber Symbiosis to fetch Scaled Herbalist, resolve Lorehold Command to give it haste and put the Snow-Covered Swamp into play. Use the black mana to cast Thieves' Tools and get some some Jin copies, each of which creates a few treasure tokens.

    I have not tried getting Jin-Gitaxias earlier, since we'd then need Bury in Books to cast it again before we can create non-legendary copies. But that could be something to explore for improvements.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most Damage without going infinite: ZNR-SNC Standard Edition
    Argh, I was mislead by MTGSalvations "oracle" text... I remember checking for that, but apparently didn't check at the right place.


    I think I have an additional layer.

    - Targeting Lithoform Engine with a Wizard's Spellbook activation gives us X untapped copies; or casting it gives us X Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant copies.
    - Each of those can copy a Spectral Steel ability to return Thieves' Tools to hand. Casting that gives us X Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant copies.
    - Each one of those gets us X treasures via Xorn.

    1 layer more than our current activations of the Spellbook. But I don't know if we can hook it into combat somehow.

    Since we can only activate Spellbook as a sorcery we need a new Spectral Steel ability each time we want to use it this way. So max 4 times. Then 4 more casts of Lithoform Engine (at instant speed via Tibalt's Trickery).


    Edit: I guess we would also need Valakut Awakening to put the Thieves' Tools into the library in order to cast those at instant speed.

    Edit2: Lithoform Engine can copy a Wizard's Spellbook activation at instant speed with Spectral Steels ability on the stack, so the exilable instants/sorceries remain the limiting resource.


    Edit3:
    For the start without using Orvar, the All-Form wrong:

    We will need some card to create that first Orvar token. It is quite annoying that Croaking Counterpart can't target Orvar. >_<

    Options like Necroduality seem to be worse for the start than just running a second copy of Orvar. And with that I can't quite manage to get started with 5 exiles, but 6 exiles shouldn't be a problem. So we lose out on 1 exilable spell from running an additional creature and 1 from the slower start.

    The other possibility would be running Double Major, which could take care of the initial token creation and replace Mirror Box, while being exilable. To tie the 6 exiles option above we could take up to 8 exiles for the start. But 7 exiles might be doable.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most Damage without going infinite: ZNR-SNC Standard Edition
    Confront the Past is an exilable spell that helps us get multiple Rowan, Scholar of Sparks emblems. We need at least 2 of those to get a working G stage without exploit from Repository Skaab or multiple copies of the instants.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most Damage without going infinite: ZNR-SNC Standard Edition
    Updated start:

    Turn 1:
    Play Shatterskull, the Hammer Pass untapped. (17 life)
    Cast Goldhound.

    Turn 2:
    Play Forest.
    Cast For the Family targeting Goldhound. Leave it on the stack.
    Tap the remaining land and sacrifice the Goldhound to cast Tibalt's Trickery, targeting the For the Family. Counter it, mill 3 cards, then exile and cast Wizard's Spellbook. (3 cards in hand)

    1st Exile: Invoke the Winds. Untap the Spellbook.
    2nd Exile: Turntimber Symbiosis. Fetch Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant. Untap the Spellbook.
    3rd Exile: Tibalt's Trickery. Cast Invoke the Wind first, then Tibalt's Trickery, countering it. Use the Jin copy to untap Spellbook. Get Orvar, the All-Form and Mirror Box. Mill 1.

    4th Exile: Lorehold Command. Don't cast Tibalt's Trickery. Command targets Orvar to create a token. Get Ashaya, Soul of the Wild. Untap the Spellbook. Command gives all creatures indestructible and haste.

    Tap Orvar, Jin and Ashaya for G. (3 G, 3 cards in hand)
    Cast For the Family 3 times: Orvar, Orvar, Jin. (8 Orvars, 8 fresh Jins)

    5th Exile: Bloody Betrayal. Cast spells, stack should look something like this:
    ------------
    16x Orvar token creation.
    8x Jin-copy of Turntimber Symbiosis
    Lorehold Command (targeting Orvar + indestructible, haste)
    Bloody Betrayal (targeting Orvar)
    Invoke the Winds (targeting Wizard's Spellbook)
    Tibalt's Trickery (targeting Turntimber Symbiosis)
    Turntimber Symbiosis
    ------------

    Get the Orvar tokens, put Xorn, Vault Robber, Aberrant Mind Sorcerer and 5 other creatures into play. Get For the Family back from GY. Give those creatures haste and tap them for G. Untap Orvar and tap it for G. Untap the Spellbook.

    Cast For the Family targeting Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. 24 tokens are enough to bring back and cast For the Family 8 times (7x Orvar, then Jin) and get at least one copy back to hand in the end. (24*2^7=3*2^10=3072 Orvars)

    Resolve Tibalt's Trickery and cast Bloody Betrayal targeting Orvar (6144 Orvars). Get 3072 Jin copies of Bloody Betrayal. Use one of the untaps on the hasty Vault Robber. Use the rest to generate 3072 G.

    Cast For the Family targeting Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. 6144 tokens are enough to bring back and cast For the Family another 3069 times targeting Orvar. We end up with 3*2^11*2^3069=3*2^3080 Orvars. (number has 928 digits)

    Cast For the Family targeting Xorn, get token copies. Then exile the first creature (Goldhound) with Vault Robber to create 3*2^3080+2 treasures.

    We still have 3074 Blood tokens and a few instants/sorceries in hand, so using some of that mana to get access to the entire deck and go through the full combo will not be a problem.

    So 5 exiles with Vault Robber is possible on turn 2.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most Damage without going infinite: ZNR-SNC Standard Edition
    We also need a way to get Tibalt's Trickery and Markov Retribution back into the library to cast them from there for the layers. We can use Aberrant Mind Sorcerer instead of Repository Skaab if we don't mind the randomness and a slightly more complicated G stage.

    Without randomness we can use 1 more card and play Biblioplex Assistant. But if that is something we want to do we should also play 2 extra copies of Tibalt's trickery so no matter how much that spell mills we cast the same card. Mill randomness at the start seems unavoidable, but I find that more acceptable than randomness throughout the entire combo.


    Starting on turn 2 we can't use Scaled Herbalist to get a 4th mana, so there is no extra red from the land drop. That means we can't go straight into Culmination of Studies after 5 exiles. I think it is likely that 5 exiles with Vault Robber can still get us started. That would be one less exilable spell, but we should work out the start again to make sure.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most Damage without going infinite: ZNR-SNC Standard Edition
    Oh, I somehow missed Goldhound when I was looking for 1 mana acceleration. I was hoping it wouldn't come to this ^^'

    Playing that turn 1 would allow us to get started on turn 2. But it also very much goes infinite with our current stages. In particular the stage with Orvar, the All-Form + creature targeting instants would produce mana of any color, which makes it go infinite and incompatible with the other stages. Currently we use Orvar and creature etb effects to make progress and reuse instants. Changing that seems extremely hard.

    If we get to a choice between starting on turn 2 with say 2 stages and turn 3 with 4 stages I would go with turn 3.


    There is a possibility to use Goldhound for the start and still get the current combo. We'd need to sacrifice Goldhound for the start and then make sure it gets stuck in the graveyard. Currently it should only get out with Devious Cover-Up, which we need to move Spara's Adjudicators to the library in the U stage. An alternative for that would be Bury in Books, which would leave creatures in the graveyard stuck.

    The problem with Bury in Books is that it can't get Plains into the library, so I don't know how the U stage could produce and accumulate W to build a big W stage.

    We could try moving another creature to produce white. But adding Rakish Revelers lets us produce red and start a bit of the Toralf, God of Fury stage with Toralf's Hammer. Shattered Seraph lets us produce an additional blue and go infinite that way, plus it gains life. I don't know any other creatures we need in hand to produce white mana.

    Trying to animate the plains to get it into the library with Bury in Books would also allow us to target it in the G stage and get Orvar copies.


    But wait. That problem is easier than I initially thought and was basically already solved with Secluded Courtyard. We just need a nonbasic, untapped, white producing land that doesn't go infinite. Brightclimb Pathway should work. (It doesn't go infinite in the W stage because Path to the World Tree can't fetch it.)
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on 7CBB - Research/Game: To Infinity and Beyond (@ Turn 2^1024 + 9234)
    We can activate Keldon Megaliths in response to the Extravagant Replication triggers. So the second ping would only give us 2^11 depletion counters, which is a bit short of the 2^16 we need to claim 2^^^40 in the end.
    Posted in: Forum Magic
  • posted a message on 7CBB - Research/Game: To Infinity and Beyond (@ Turn 2^1024 + 9234)
    Wow, forced creation of Doubling Season tokens with a depletion land is a brilliant combo!

    Unfortunately the hexation with Grip of Chaos won't work. That hand wouldn't win at all because Keldon Megaliths never hits the opponent.

    By my count the Sapseep Forest version "only" needs 2^^^30 turns. We don't need to wait for the depletion counters after the last activation. Test of Endurance just wins after reaching 50 life. Still amazingly high numbers Smile


    Edit:
    Slithering Shade almost works as wincon for the hexation hand, but we'd need BG depletion and UR storage lands to cast everything. They are not available in those combinations.


    Adding 2x Aria of Flame to plopfill's 5 cards (Extravagant Replication, Doubling Season, Keldon Megaliths, Timberline Ridge, Saprazzan Cove) would get us to 2^^^39.
    Posted in: Forum Magic
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