Magic Market Index for July 13th, 2018
 
Magic Market Index for July 6th, 2018
 
Treasure Cruisin' Modern UR Control
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Yeah, we need to drain at least one Engineered Explosives after the Megastage transition, because we can bounce it with the top hyperstage transition.

    Using Forked-Branch Garami to get Elvish Spirit Guide into hand is a cool idea. Though I don't see a way to get Karami and Child of Alara back onto the battlefield. For Verdant Succession they'd need to be in the library and I don't think we can get them there fast enough after Alara goes off.

    For the Hyperstage that sacrificing a champion creature to the additional champion triggers tech goes infinite when we can bounce the champion creature. For example with Changeling Berserker in hand we can play it to trigger Bloodbond Marches, counter it, bring it back with the first trigger, champion Goblin Dark-Dwellers and sacrifice the Changeling. Now we get to cast our spells and after that is over we bring the Changeling back to the battlefield with the next Bloodbond March trigger. We get almost the same effect as if we were able to bounce Goblin Dark-Dwellers directly.

    Fetching a championer out of the library with i.e. mercnary tech seems fine.

    A tap creature chain for the hyperstage tokens doesn't work. With 2 Coastal Drakes we can convert 2 Skyshroud Archer tokens into 3 Coastal Drake tokens: Tap Archer #1 to destroy 1 drake (+1 token) and bounce the other. Play Drake to get Bloodbond March triggers and briong both drakes back to the battlefield. Tap Archer #2 to destroy both drakes (+2 tokens) and bring both back to the battlefield with Bloodbond March triggers from before.

    In general we can convert X Archer tokens into 2X-1 Drakes. Too many. If we only have a single Drake card we would only get X-1 Drakes out of X Archers. Too few.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Okay, so we require a trigger from the hyperstage transition before we are able to use the megastage transition properly again. I think that preserves the stage structure. For the purpose of going infinite I'd worry about the possibility of going through a partial megastage transition forever, but removing Omniscience seems pretty deadly.

    The problem I see now is that we don't need a hyperstage transition trigger to get Omniscience back. We don't even need Academy Rector. We just have to imprint Omniscience on a Mimic Vat and put the activation on the stack before we transition. Right next to the tokencreation trigger for Vedalken Orrery. As long as Omniscience remains in exile the Mimic Vat trigger will create a token copy at the correct time, even if the Mimic Vat is gone by then.

    Let's bring up an old rules question again. I don't remember if we answered it satisfactory last time it came up, I just know we concluded that it didn't matter for the old deck:
    Assume we imprint Omniscience on Mimic Vat. Then we put a Mimic Vat activation on the stack. Next we destroy or bounce the Mimic Vat. Then we use Mirror of Fate to remove Omniscience from the exile zone. Only now do we resolve the Activation.
    Do we (1.) get an Omniscience token or (2.) do not get any token?

    In case of 1 we could make use of this technique as the standard way to get back Omniscience after every transition. It won't drain any resources, but it also won't need any extra cards. In case of 2 we can't use this as standard, because we would be unable to put a second megastage transition on the stack if Omniscience is still exiled for the transition that is already on the stack. It would be just a line of play with the potential to go infinite, which also means we can't rely on Omniscience recreation to drain resources.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmm, I think by using Engineered Explosives for two like that we gain one extra hasty Metallurgeon token.

    Of course that would also be a problem if we don't want to use Explosives on two for the Winding Constrictor. The Megstage itself doesn't require Winding Constrictors unless we need to execute the sub-Hyperstages, so for the purpose of going infinite we could just ignore them and use the extra explosives for Metallurgeon anyway.

    Some other drain would be needed for explosives. I actually thought Academy Rector is intended for that, but that only gets rid of one Explosive, and since Omniscience persists through Rebuild the second Explosive is still free to use in going infinite.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Synthetic Destiny might be able to move the Leviathan safely.

    What is the plan for getting the correct number of Winding Constrictor tokens back?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Sacrificing the Kederekt Leviathan with Rescue from the Underworld would go infinite because we can imprint Leviathan on Mimic Vat to gain a slight delay on one of the bounce effects:

    Cast Roar of the Wurm for a bunch of Spellweaver Volute triggers. Resolve the first to sacrifice Leviathan and imprint it on Mimic Vat.
    Resolve another to bring Elvish Spirit Guide to the battlefield.
    Put activations of Mirror of Fate and Perpetual Timepiece onto the stack.
    Use Mimic Vat to create a Leviathan token and bounce everything, including Elvish Spirit Guide. Exile the Guide for 1 green.
    Use the Mirror and Timepiece activations to move Leviathan and Spirit Guide to the graveyard.
    Use Volute triggers to bring both to the battlefield and bounce the guide once more. Exile it for another green.

    We generated one extra green and are back to where we started. (Apart from minor differences that can be fixed by that extra green, just like they are after standard transitions)
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Unearth is a sorcery and would trigger Spellweaver Volute which is probably too strong. If it was an instant you could order Volute triggers to get Smite the Monstrous into double Unearth repeatedly, each Smite killing Child of Alara and the Unearths bringing back Wall of Roots + Loyal Retainers to generate a ton of green mana.

    The Mishra, Artificer Prodigy + 2nd Engineered Explosives can probably be replaced by Salvaging Station again. Black Lotus is unsafe anyway since Mirrorworks can generate tokens without the original ever going to the graveyard.

    I still haven't looked at the Megastage and higher too much. But for the latest non-Alara versions I'm kinda wondering what you do with the Kederekt Leviathan? As far as I can tell you bring it back from the graveyard with Fated Return and then it just sits there, indestructible.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Heh, I think you found the Worldpurge equivalent to painlands: As far as I can tell there is nothing stopping us from using Xira Arien in the higher Megastage with green mana from Aether Mutation copies. We can keep the Worldpurge in Hand through the transition and in the higher Megastage we have an extra green mana from resolving Worldpurge to provide all the resources we need to put the next transition on the stack and go infinite.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    I don't see how Soul Foundry would let us go infinite with the hyperstage. Of course that doesn't mean there is no infinite, but lets assume it works for now.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmm, getting rid of indestructible granters and using deathtriggers from 4cmc to destroy Skyshroud Archer would work. Using a tap creature that can target itself probably won't work. We might be able to create a layer worth of Skyshroud Archer tokens when we are only allowed to create one. Errant Doomsayers in particular can also be untapped by Battle Cry, removing the need for Retract completely.

    And yeah, painlands was a problem with Worldfire. As long as the thing we convert into also gets removed by the transition we should be good. I guess Worldpurge plays a bit better in that regard.

    EDIT: How is Soul Foundry going to work in the Megastage? In particular, how do we get the Spell Queller back out of exile/graveyard/library?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    You can't have 2 Spell Quellers with the Panharmonicon. The Hyperstage would go infinite with a loop that is pretty much exactly like the loop I posted 2 pages (2 pages! You go so fast!) back.

    ___

    Lets look at this gamestate: We have both Engineered Explosives in hand, one Western Paladin is in the graveyard, the other Western Paladin is exiled under a Spell Queller. All the instants and sorceries are under the same Spell Queller as well. Vedalken Orrery is exiled under the other Spell Queller.
    On the Battlefield we have at least one Orrery token and one hasty untapped Western Paladin token. We also have a bunch of Psychic Battles and [c]Bloodbond March[c]es and the other usual stuff.
    On the stack is a Mirrorworks trigger for Vedalken Orrery and say 10 layers worth of Metallurgeon PB and BM triggers.

    Onto the infinite loop:

    We can tap a Western Paladin token to get <enough> PB triggers.
    We can use 1 of these triggers to resolve a Make a Stand copy:
    -- Use the PB to bounce the original Spell Queller with all those instants and sorceries. Cast all of the spells under it.
    -- Recast the Spell Queller and exile all those spells again.
    -- Resolve all the Swarm Intelligence triggers we got. Refuse to copy any spells you don't wan't to resolve here, but get a copy of and resolve.
    We are back to where we were before, except with 1 PB trigger less and all creatures are now indestructible.
    We can use the same procedure to cast any of the other instants/sorceries or use Bloodbond March for Western Paladin. So lets do that:
    - Use 1 PB to bring Western Paladin to the battlefield.
    - Cast Engineered Explosives from hand so that it gets 4 counters.
    - Explode the Explosives, imprint Western Paladin on Mimic Vat. Create a hasty untapped token Western Paladin and move the card to the graveyard.
    - cast the second Engineered Explosive to trigger Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and get the first copy back to the abttlefield.
    - Use 1 PB to bounce all artifacts, including the Explosives.
    - Use 1 PB to bounce the Spell Queller that exiles Vadalken Orrery. Cast and resolve that.
    - Use 1 PB to make creatures indestructible again, including the new Western Paladin token and the Orrery.
    - Use 1 PB to bring Western Paladin to the battlefield.
    - Cast Engineered Explosives from hand so that it gets 4 counters.
    - Explode the Explosives, imprint Western Paladin on Mimic Vat. Create a hasty untapped token Western Paladin and move the card to the graveyard.
    - cast the second Engineered Explosive to trigger Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and get the first copy back to the abttlefield.
    - Use 1 PB to bounce all artifacts, including the Explosives.

    We are back to where we started except that we have one additional Western Paladin token and the Vedalken Orrery is not exiled under a Spell Queller any more. Instead we have the Orrery on the Battlefield and 1 Spell Queller in hand.

    Resolve the Mirrorworks trigger to get back instant speed capability via Vedalken Orrery token.

    Use the Metallurgeon layers to create 10 layers worth of hasty, tapped Metallurgeon tokens along with the 5 hasty untapped tokens we can get out of them. This also lets us top off on mana and vastly increase the numbers of our enchantments, so progress is made. The stack is now empty.

    Tap one hasty Western Paladin token to get <enough> PB triggers. Use 1 PB to untap all those hasty Metallurgeons.

    Use the Metallurgeons to put 10 layers worth of triggers on the stack. Look at the rest of them and don't care because we are going infinite anyway~

    Cast Orrery, get a Mirrorworks trigger and use one of the untapped Metallurgeons to bounce it again. Cast Orrery, cast Queller and let it exile the Orrery.

    ___

    The 1 Queller version of the Hyperstage seems to work! Having that token based Hyperstage is a great step towards building an Ultrastage.

    I haven't looked to deep into the Mega and Ultra stages proposed here yet. You are right to keep in mind the Vedalken Orrery under Spell Queller as a danger for them. With spare Western Paladins from the higher Hyperstage getting the Orrery under there would be basically free, so there is a lot of danger. I'm not sure if it is enough to make Omniscience hard to get back. I guess it depends on what specifically needs to be done to double dip on the resource generation of a transition.

    Separating the different types of stages via cheap instants, expensive instants and sorceries looks like a good plan. Could be workable.

    Making sure that the Mega and Ultra stages use up the extra substage resources they create during the transition is indeed important and seems like a hard problem.

    When we were constructing the Megastage we eventually resorted to using lifecost flashback spells of the same color as the hyperstage for the mana -> life setup. i.e. Chatter of the Squirrel + Acorn Harvest. For the life -> mana setup we had to use lifecost flashback spells for both.

    Seperating the cost form the actual triggering spell, for example with painlands would often go infinite because we could convert the life into mana in the higher substage and keep it through the transition. So you have to make sure that the entire payment for triggering the Ultrastage can only be made after reolving the transition.

    Not sure how that is supposed to work when the cost should include mana, life and a token/explosives activation... With Fumarole for example I don't see how you are using green? But Worldpurge gets you both the Tropical Island and the Pale Recluse into your hand, so that's 2 green generated right there.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Dual Nature will never exile a Spell Queller token if you use it correctly. Just follow two simple rules:

    1. Whenever a Dual Nature token of Spell Queller is about to enter the battlefield clear the board of all Dual Natures by bouncing the original while it is a creature and let the Dual Nature trigger exile all tokens. This ensures that the Dual Nature that is about to create the token has already left the battlefield, so the token can never be exiled by the last Dual Nature ability.
    2. Whenever you are about to bounce the original Spell Queller clear the board of all Dual Natures by bouncing the original Dual Nature while it is a creature and let the Dual Nature trigger exile all tokens. Since no Dual Nature is there to witness the original Spell Queller leaving they won't attempt to exile any tokens with their second ability.

    In both cases, the removal of Dual Natures doesn't interfere with any other Spell Queller tokens because we follow rule 1 every time.

    The loop above follows those rules.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Nothing about cutting Spellweaver Volute or switching to 4cmc Norritt seems to stop the Vedalken Orrery infinite. Let me go into more detail.

    Lets look at this gamestate: We have Engineered Explosives in hand, one Norritt is in the graveyard, the other Norritt is exiled under a Spell Queller token. All the instants and sorceries are under Spell Queller tokens as well and the same is true for Vedalken Orrery. Original Spell Queller is on the battlefield without an exiled card.
    On the Battlefield we have at least one Orrery token, one hasty untapped Norritt token. We also have a bunch of Psychic Battles and Bloodbond Marches and the other usual stuff. None of the mentioned tokens was created by a Dual Nature that is still on the battlefield, so we can remove those without exiling the tokens.
    On the stack is *a Dual Nature trigger for Vedalken Orrery* and say 10 layers worth of Metallurgeon PB and BM triggers.

    Onto the infinite loop:

    We can tap a Norritt token to get <enough> PB triggers.
    We can use 2 of these triggers to resolve a Make a Stand copy:
    -- If necessary use some Mana to bounce Dual Nature and clear all tokens.
    -- Use 1st PB to bounce the original Spell Queller.
    -- Replay Dual Nature.
    -- Use 2nd PB to bounce the token that exiles Make a Stand. Cast Make a Stand and get a bunch of Swarm Intelligence triggers.
    -- Cast and resolve Spell Queller. The original enters and triggers its own etb and Dual Nature triggers. Put the latter on top.
    -- Spend some more Mana to bounce Dual Nature again and clear all tokens.
    -- Resolve the Dual Nature trigger, get a Spell Queller token, have it exile the Make a Stand. Resolve other Dual Nature and Spell Queller triggers, but there are no other targets on the stack to exile.
    -- Resolve Swarm Intelligence triggers to get copies and resolve Make a Stand.
    We are back to where we were before, except with 2 PB triggers less and all creatures are now indestructible.
    We can use the same procedure to cast any of the other instants/sorceries or us Bloodbond March for Norritt. So lets do that:
    - Use 2 PB to bring Norritt to the battlefield.
    - Cast Engineered Explosives from hand so that it gets 4 counters.
    - Explode the Explosives, imprint Norritt on Mimic Vat. Create a hasty untapped token Norritt and move the card to the graveyard.
    - spend some mana to kill an animated enchantment token and trigger Salvaging Station to bring the Explosives back to the battlefield.
    - Use 2 PB to bounce all artifacts, including the Explosives.
    - Use 1 PB to kill the Spell Queller token that exiles Vadalken Orrery. Cast and resolve that.
    - Use 2 PB to make creatures indestructible again, including the new Norritt token and the Orrery.
    - Use 2 PB to bring Norritt to the battlefield.
    - Cast Engineered Explosives from hand so that it gets 4 counters.
    - Explode the Explosives, imprint Norritt on Mimic Vat. Create a hasty untapped token Norritt and move the card to the graveyard.
    - spend some mana to kill an animated enchantment token and trigger Salvaging Station to bring the Explosives back to the battlefield.
    - Use 2 PB to bounce all artifacts, including the Explosives.

    We are back to where we started except that we have one additional Norritt token and the Vedalken Orrery is not exiled under a Spell Queller any more. (And probably some other minor stuff, but going into that much detail would make this description even more tedious)

    *Resolve the Dual Nature trigger to get back instant speed capability.*

    Use the Metallurgeon layers to create 10 layers worth of hasty, tapped Metallurgeon tokens along with the 5 hasty untapped tokens we can get out of them. This also lets us top off on mana and vastly increase the numbers of our enchantments, so progress is made. The stack is now empty.

    Tap one hasty Norritt token to get <enough> PB triggers. Use 2 PB to untap all those hasty Metallurgeons. Use 1 PB to bounce Spell Queller *and keep it in hand for a moment*.

    Use the Metallurgeons to put 10 layers worth of triggers on the stack. Look at the rest of them and don't care because we are going infinite anyway~

    *Cast Orrery, get a Dual Nature trigger and use one of the untapped Metallurgeons to bounce it again after removing the Dual Natures from the battlefield.* Cast Orrery, cast Queller and let a token exile the Orrery with approriate bounces of Dual Nature, just like for all the other spells above.

    (Maybe I forgot to mention some Dual Nature bounces or replays. But It really shouldn't be hard to make sure it is there when we want it and not there when we don't want it. Progress can be saved through Dual Nature bounces due to say the Psychic Battle tokens or whatever)

    _________

    Changing Dual Nature to something else may or may not stop this infinite, depending on the alternative. But the alternatives that do stop this seem super restrictive and I don't have high hopes in that direction.

    Making Metallurgeon activations required to brong back Norritt or Engineered Explosives would stop the infinite as far as I can tell. Might be worth looking into.

    Even if you do stop the infinite in the Hyperstage, having the Vedalken Orrery from Spellqueller around will also make getting a Mega and Ultra stage more difficult as it potentially lets us gain the expensive resources for every copy of say Worldfire.

    Removing Swarm Intelligence without replacing it with something else to create those dangerous copies seems tough because the Spell Queller Hyperstage fizzles if we don't reexile the original spell, so we need to get a copy somehow if we want to resolve something.

    EDIT: Oops, I messed up a bit and lost instant speed capability during the loop. Edited to fix that. Added bits marked with *.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    To be honest, I'm surprised by how close that token based hyperstage is to working. But I'm afraid it is not quite there yet, although the infinite I found is pretty convoluted.

    First use one Skyshroud Archer token to bounce Spell Queller, generate lots of Metallurgeons and do alot of setup stuff, but skip the Rebuild. When we replay the Spell Queller we exile Proclamation of Rebirth as usual, but also make sure that a token copy exiles Vedalken Orrery. (While having tokens on the battlefield to keep playing at instant speed.)

    Then tap a second Archer to generate a bunch of Psychic Battle triggers. Use the one to bounce the Spell Queller and cast Proclamation of Rebirth and do the stuff we'd do for a normal transition (including playing the Spell Queller to exile Proclamation again and resolving rebuild). Resolve the next PB trigger to bounce the token Spell Queller and cast Vedalken Orrery. We now can play at instant speed again and generate one Archer token. Next we use a third PB trigger bounce the Spell Queller another time and go through the transition again. another resolved Rebuild allows us to generate the second archer token.

    We are back where we started with regards to archer tokens and skipping the Rebuild after the first archer activation ensures we don't run out of Metallurgeon based resources below it. Extra Metallurgeons generate extra mana and enchantments, going infinite.


    Regarding the Mega and Ultra stage, I have no idea how we would differentiate between sorceries used by them. I think we would need one of them to be almost completely creature based. Those still seem quite a bit out of reach.

    Also, keep in mind that untapping Mimic Vat is super dangerous. Creating a hasty, animated, untapped Mimic Vat is not all that difficult and imprinting a Village Bell-Ringer on that goes infinite as long as untapping creatures generates a bit of mana. Which it easily does for us, so yeah...
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Quote from Stakfish »
    Actually, can I get a sanity check on this new version?
    This version doesn't seem to work. The Problem is that you can put Naru Meha, Master Wizard triggers on the stack without paying white if you don't want to use them to kill off Slinn Voda, the Rising Deep. So you play Slinn Voda once to gain a bunch of triggers and then can use every single one of the triggers to generate 1 life each by playing Naru Meha and not bothering with On Serra's Wings. When we run out of Slinn Voda triggers we have generated more than enough life to pay for the enchantment once and kill off Slinn Voda in order to do it again.

    A minor problem I also noted: Legion Lieutenant would need to be cut as well, otherwise we can kill off one round of unbuffed Paladin of Atonements, bring them back, buff them and kill them off again. The Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle dies one Radiating Lightning earlier than the Paladins, but that doesn't matter and we have a net gain of 2 life.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    To be honest I think that plan for an ultra stage has a lot of problems. Maybe the most important is that as Deedlit noted there is no connection between Goblin Bushwhacker and Apocalypse.

    In our current hyper stage we use the hyperstage resource to begin a chain of events that generates a lot of the resources needed for the stages and at the same puts something on the stack that is later required to lower stage, i.e. get back the hyperstage resource. By doing that we fix the position on the stack where the transition has to happen. At any time we can look at a Psychic Battle trigger on the stack and figure out to which stage it belongs by counting the transitions above it and the hyperstage resources we currently have. The same thing happens with he Megastage.

    In contrast to that we can cast the bushwhacker whenever we have a spare red, and generate a red whenever we feel like it by casting the Apocalypse. There is no clear separation between the hyperstages.

    Quote from Stakfish »
    In other news, while there's a bit more work to do on my new write-up, I'm making my Graham's number combo public, linking it below. I'd appreciate it if you guys could give it a look!

    http://alex.shankland.org/index.php/2018/06/13/how-to-deal-more-than-grahams-number-damage-in-magic-the-gathering/
    That is a great combo. Using Muldrotha, the Gravetide like you do is an amazing idea!

    I thought about adding an energy -> life layer via Ajani Unyieldings -2 on one of your own creatures. But the sorcery speed restriction seems too harsh, since you can't clear all the Silent Gravestone activations from the stack everytime you want to use Ajani.

    That said I think I found a major problem. We can gain more life than intended from Paladin of Atonement:
    - With 3 Raging Swordtooth triggers on the stack cast Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle. (Costs 1 life and uses Muldrotha for creatures)
    - Cast a historic spell to bring back the Paladin of Atonement.
    - Resolve a Swordtooth trigger to kill Paladin and gain 1 life.
    - Cast two more historic spells to bring back Paladin and Legion Lieutenant.
    - Cast Cherished Hatchling. Since it is a dinosaur and another instance of it died this turn it gets to fight the Paladin, killing it. We gain 2 life.
    - Cast another historic spell to bring the paladin back.
    - Resolve another two Swordtooth triggers. This kills more creatures, including the Paladin, which gains us 2 life.
    We gained a total of 5 life, for a net gain of 4. We should be able to get the historic spells and the Hatchling back into hand as well as refresh the Muldrotha after a few Slinn Voda, the Rising Deep triggers.

    Removing the Legion Lieutenant from the deck would reduce this to 3 life gained, but that is still 1 more than allowed due to the Hatchling's fight clause. We cannot just remove the Hatchling, so this will require some more work.

    I haven't really kept up with standard and don't know any of the cards, so I hope you can still find a fix for this.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.