What do people think of Vivien's Arkbow for filtering in mid/late game? Might help convert some of the useless dorks into threats in a more creature heavy version.
I think you'll probably be better served by the bow user herself, Vivien Reid. Does the filtering you're looking for, can also serve up removal or defend herself in a pinch. Not a very interesting ultimate, though.
i played nonfoil a long time. it began with the fatal pushes and paths, because the FNM ones were nice... then someone sold a playset of faithless lootings foil pretty cheap due to UMA being cracked willy nilly.... a couple lightning bolts here and there... and once you've got the cheap parts foiled out the parts that aren't foiled start to annoy. Then comes the first Arid Mesa.... then it goes downhill from there.
ps: some of the most beautiful foils are actually pretty cheap, like Mardu Charm and Indomitable creativity. So there's very little pain in getting those first.
I went with Opt in the end because we're usually spending turn 1 on discard, possibly turn 2 on discard as well, but then from here to turn 4 it's possible you want to hold up mana for the 10-14 ish instants we do have. Opt offers immediate choices in the midgame while SV has you draw the top card and then set up, which is a better turn 1 play.
I just ran into someone on basically the same deck but Esper running regular Polymorph and new Teferi for protection. Worked really well.
I like it. New teferi fits very nicely into the curve from 2 drop token generator into Teferi into polymorph. That's really something to think about.
We could stay in jeskai colors to maintain the upsides of creativity (dodging cage, pulling 2 wincons). We'd lose lingering souls and black for discard.
List looks pretty close to what ive got to going through a few iterations. I would say Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is worth 1 copy, and Vault of the archangel 1-2 of as well for the deathtouch in midrange matchups.
If your meta is aggro 2-3 timely is probably correct as well.
RE: Timely. I've found timely to be very awkward card a lot of the time. Against most match ups you have this awkward situation where you want to cast it, but then the opponent has just 1-2 life points less than you. And if we've been removing their threats with our spot removal most time we stand to gain no removal. The worst thing is, apart from burn, most decks deal their damage in huge chunks meaning one moment timely isn't live, and the next we're dead. This annoyed me so much so consistently that I decided to cut the darn thing and put Teyo instead. At least he's a proactive anti aggro card that's just as troublesome to deal with.
RE: Vault of the AA. Do you run these as 24th and 25th lands? Going below 23 colored sources is pretty dangerous. If you subscribe to Frank Karsten's teachings, we're technically supposed to have 25 colored sources for that consistent 5th land drop but I'm really winging it with faithless looting.
RE: Gideon Ally. Seems a bit slow, might be more because of my meta than anything else. Would definitely be good in a midrange meta. I think Saheeli does more in the deck, though.
I've seen discussion about a red splash in this forum for various reasons, but never seen any about Shared animosity and I always wanted to try it. Concentrating on spirit tokens with Lingering, procession and Midninght haunting (Possibly Promise of Bunrei too). It also gives us access to pretty much the whole Mardu pyromancer's toolkit too.
T2: Intangible; T3 procession; T4 shared animosity leads to 12 damage.
But, that's assuming we want more anthems in our deck. Maybe it's just the burn player inside me wanting the deck to be more aggresive than it can or should be.
Another card that gives you a similar-ish outcome is Rally the Peasants. What's fun about red is you get access to Faithless Looting which will now work together with souls and rally for some crazy value.
I splash play red too, but I'm putting Emrakul or Iona on the board turn 3 or 4 instead of playing more anthems. Lots of possibilities once you add another color, really.
Huh, the lists we ended up building are pretty close, I even have the fun-of JVP as well, and 0 cryptics. I passed on fastlands tho, since I really want that 4th and 5th untapped land. Played check lands instead.
There's a few different ways the deck can go for sure. As I'm really just here for Saheeli, I might wanna try going all in her and dropping the combo, actually. Should probably find the Mardu Pyromancer thread for that.
Considering the amount of games I won with tokens and how often getting the combo off doesn't even win you the game, I think it's a mistake to go deeper into the combo at the expense of backup plans.
The reason saheeli fits in so well with this combo deck in particular is because:
1. every spell we play triggers her passive
2. our combo cares about her activated ability (hasty emmy)
If you slot her into a pure tokens deck, she's not efficient enough. She'll be a 3 mana young pyro that can't be killed with push, which is nice, but she also can't swing for damage herself, or be recurred with Kolaghan's command. Her activated ability will also be purely decorative. If you want to go plan A with tokens, the existing BW tokens is THE exemplification of token beatdown, but it doesn't involve saheeli, being straight BW.
If you found winning with the combo difficult, it may be due to your subconsciously investing *too much* into plan B. Having the combo isn't just about slotting in 4 creativity + payoffs and calling it a day - the combo needs setting up and protection. For instance, running intangible virtues over discard, running bolts over path, these are decisions that make it easier to kill with tokens, but it makes the combo kill harder because they compromise on disruption and exposes us to opposing disruption or aggression that will beat us in a race.
In fact, I've recently gone on a losing streak myself, falling to Death's shadow, phoenix and Burn. Bitterblossoms are not good when the shadow deck does actually run battle rage. In all the matches I consistently wished lightning bolt was path to exile instead, sometimes because the toughness of the thing killing me is higher than 3, and sometimes because the subject would keep coming back. I was never happy to see my blossoms too. The low amount of discard also meant I would be stripped of my creativity just a turn before I was going to go off - when the opponents are familiar with your deck they know to save disruption for the turn you make your 3rd land drop. I've done another round of changes that push the deck further away from aggro and more firmly into the control seat. There are 2 goals I am trying to achieve:
1. Better survivability against aggro
2. Better consistency in combo
Rather than compromise the number, I turned back to the swiss knife Mardu Charm, which gives us what we need when we need it - instant speed duress if you're set up but the opponent is leaving up mana, so you can check if the coast is clear on their end step, or tokens, which incidentally do very nice against bloodghasts and bushwhackers, and last but not least removal that can handle anything up to a hollow one size, though it falls short in the Shadow match up.
Another card which adds removal without losing on the token generator count is Start // Finish. I'd long used this card in BW tokens, and I figure it will do just as well here. The instant speed token generation along with the additional removal half that plays well with looting is something I'm looking forward to appraise.
The big change is the complete removal of bolts and intangible virtues. Any token beat-down will be 1 point at a time. I've since learnt that in this crazy aggro meta, I need to be either better at beatdown or really good at control - and beating nix/humans/spirits/DS/burn is a lost cause. BW tokens can race because of 2 major things - they have Intangible Virtues where the combo should be, so they have the full complement of disruptions, and secondly, they have Sorin and Collective brutality main. Which leads me to my next point:
I've moved Lightning Helix to the maindeck. I've also added Teyo, the Shieldmage to the sideboard. Bitterblossoms were moved from main to side as well. This is in recognition of the highly aggressive meta I'm facing. Blossom shines in midrange and control matches, and I'm just not seeing that. When the meta is aggro and tron with only a splash of UW, I'm quite sure this is the right decision.
I'm considering making space for Shatterstorm in the side in case I run into Affinity or Lantern control. Their presence since to have diminished recently, but if you seeing a lot of that, might wanna make room for it.
Other card's I'm considering:
1. Collective Brutality, again for that aggro MU
2. Crumble to Dust, for none other than Tron, since they can eventually break out of Alpine moon with nature's claim.
Woops! That makes it a lot worse. I don't know why i kept thinking it was an instant spell.
Are you referring to Gigadrowse? Its a sideboard card in Storm for making sure you can perform your combo unmolested. Definitely a card to consider but you're going to need to produce a tonne of blue. Your deck would definitely need some number of Cascade Bluffs.
I see a couple of issues with using Dryad arbor as your fodder.
1. There is a nonzero chance that you might not draw any of your 12 fetches when you want to, or you might need the fetch to correct your mana and then be left dry with combo in the hand and no fodder.
2. With only a singleton fodder in your deck, a single removal spell will mean multiple dead cards in your deck until you can get saheeli online and produce some tokens from there. More token generation would be good, since you have 6 combo cards.
Recommendations in blue: Cloudform - doesn't get picked up by creativity, but can be used to create a 2/2 hexproof. jokes on you if you accidentally manifest the payoff card, though. Callous Dismissal - bounce something, make a token, at instant speed. Use it defensively in conjunction with your combo, or just deal with an ensnaring bridge.
There are 2 major reasons to play Raise the Alarm despite the mediocrity of the effect.
1. Instant speed - this is the most recognized trait and the benefits are both obvious and well documented, I won't expand further.
2. Combo with Legion's Landing - this was missed out. Following up Legion's landing with Raise the Alarm means a turn 3 flip. This means 2 things. Against a control or midrange deck, they now have to deal with a land that's producing a life linking token every turn. Secondly, you have access to 4 mana on turn 3, meaning a full turn forward to combo off.
In a meta where people are ignoring you and racing to cast ad nauseum or storm off, this card will surely feel bad. Conversely, when you're up against counterspells and removals, you'll want this instant speed threat maker.
I'm not sure what else would be as good on this point in the curve. You have bitterblossom, but if anything its even worse a topdeck, and plays badly against aggro decks like phoenix, spirits and humans. One could stock up on more discard or removal, but now you risk diluting your token generators. Alternatively you could use the very top-deck friendly Mardu Charm, but then your curve would look really weird.
Overall, the threat presented by Raise the Alarm in conjunction with Landing gives you an advantage. When all the surprise is gone and opponents know your deck (which is the case in my LGS), playing a landing t1 and then holding up t2 means the opponent doesn't dare tap out. This throws them off curve which is definitely to your advantage.
UW is not an easy match up. But not having discard against combo, yuck! If you're at 4 maindeck discard, do consider increasing the number of discard especially if the meta is so degenerate. I seldom meet glass cannons like that, so my maindeck doesn't sport more than 4-5 discard spells.
If budget is a concern, you can consider either Mardu Charm as a versatile, higher curve option or simply duress.
Can you explain why Alpine Moon affects U-tron more? Cause no Ancient Stirrings to just dig for more lands?
I just had 2 successful matches against G tron, actually.
Match 1, game 1 dude mulls to 1, drops a forest and scoops. I assume he is on that new allosaurus combo travesty so I don't sideboard. Game 2 he has turn 4 Ugin, I endstep Raise the Alarm and Creativity into Emrakul.
Match 2, game 1 I have everything I need, somehow misclick and yield through my turn 4 and it costs me the game. Game 2 I Alpine Moon him and beat down with anthemed tokens. Game 3 I punt and bolt new Karn in response to his -2, so he knows Karn is dead before he picks his sideboard artifact, and goes Spyglass instead of Lattice. He shuts down Saheeli with it and drops a Wurmcoil. After his first attack I topdeck Nahiri while Wurmcoil is tapped. He topdecks another Wurmcoil but I Creativity into Emrakul.
Looks like all the tron players are testing out new Karn in favor of old Karn which is fine with me since old Karn beats both Emrakul and Iona. I do expect them to learn to plus Karn before minusing him so he doesn't die to bolt.
Blue has a hard time dealing with enchantments, and yes they have less ways to search for lands as well. They trade that in for countermagic and a combo that wins straight out with slaver. however this is better for us, since our moon comes down turn 1 and stony silence can stop them effectively.
T1 - IOK or TS
T2 - Wrench Mind or Fall
T3 - Lily of the Veil or removal of early creatures + more discard
T4 - by the time you cast JTMS here, there should be hardly any opposition. If there's threat you can bounce it and uptick lily, or downtick lily to kill it and brainstorm.
T5 - NBDG comes down and its downhill for the opponent from here.
I think you'll probably be better served by the bow user herself, Vivien Reid. Does the filtering you're looking for, can also serve up removal or defend herself in a pinch. Not a very interesting ultimate, though.
ps: some of the most beautiful foils are actually pretty cheap, like Mardu Charm and Indomitable creativity. So there's very little pain in getting those first.
I like it. New teferi fits very nicely into the curve from 2 drop token generator into Teferi into polymorph. That's really something to think about.
We could stay in jeskai colors to maintain the upsides of creativity (dodging cage, pulling 2 wincons). We'd lose lingering souls and black for discard.
RE: Timely. I've found timely to be very awkward card a lot of the time. Against most match ups you have this awkward situation where you want to cast it, but then the opponent has just 1-2 life points less than you. And if we've been removing their threats with our spot removal most time we stand to gain no removal. The worst thing is, apart from burn, most decks deal their damage in huge chunks meaning one moment timely isn't live, and the next we're dead. This annoyed me so much so consistently that I decided to cut the darn thing and put Teyo instead. At least he's a proactive anti aggro card that's just as troublesome to deal with.
RE: Vault of the AA. Do you run these as 24th and 25th lands? Going below 23 colored sources is pretty dangerous. If you subscribe to Frank Karsten's teachings, we're technically supposed to have 25 colored sources for that consistent 5th land drop but I'm really winging it with faithless looting.
RE: Gideon Ally. Seems a bit slow, might be more because of my meta than anything else. Would definitely be good in a midrange meta. I think Saheeli does more in the deck, though.
Another card that gives you a similar-ish outcome is Rally the Peasants. What's fun about red is you get access to Faithless Looting which will now work together with souls and rally for some crazy value.
I
splashplay red too, but I'm putting Emrakul or Iona on the board turn 3 or 4 instead of playing more anthems. Lots of possibilities once you add another color, really.4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Sunken Hollow
2 Dragonskull Summit
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Graven Cairns
1 Creeping Tarpit
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Desolate Lighthouse
4 Opt
3 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
3 Countersquall
2 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries (11)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Rise // Fall
1 Dreadbore
Creatures (5)
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Walkers (5)
2 Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Engineered Explosives
Board (15)
1 Alpine Moon
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Spell Snare
1 Dovin, Hand of Control
1 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
I should have 1 more LOTV in that maindeck, but I literally just foiled my mardu deck so resources are a little tight LOL
The reason saheeli fits in so well with this combo deck in particular is because:
1. every spell we play triggers her passive
2. our combo cares about her activated ability (hasty emmy)
If you slot her into a pure tokens deck, she's not efficient enough. She'll be a 3 mana young pyro that can't be killed with push, which is nice, but she also can't swing for damage herself, or be recurred with Kolaghan's command. Her activated ability will also be purely decorative. If you want to go plan A with tokens, the existing BW tokens is THE exemplification of token beatdown, but it doesn't involve saheeli, being straight BW.
If you found winning with the combo difficult, it may be due to your subconsciously investing *too much* into plan B. Having the combo isn't just about slotting in 4 creativity + payoffs and calling it a day - the combo needs setting up and protection. For instance, running intangible virtues over discard, running bolts over path, these are decisions that make it easier to kill with tokens, but it makes the combo kill harder because they compromise on disruption and exposes us to opposing disruption or aggression that will beat us in a race.
In fact, I've recently gone on a losing streak myself, falling to Death's shadow, phoenix and Burn. Bitterblossoms are not good when the shadow deck does actually run battle rage. In all the matches I consistently wished lightning bolt was path to exile instead, sometimes because the toughness of the thing killing me is higher than 3, and sometimes because the subject would keep coming back. I was never happy to see my blossoms too. The low amount of discard also meant I would be stripped of my creativity just a turn before I was going to go off - when the opponents are familiar with your deck they know to save disruption for the turn you make your 3rd land drop. I've done another round of changes that push the deck further away from aggro and more firmly into the control seat. There are 2 goals I am trying to achieve:
1. Better survivability against aggro
2. Better consistency in combo
4 Indomitable Creativity
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Iona, shield of Emeria
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
Token Generators (11)
2 Legion's Landing
4 Raise the Alarm
4 Lingering Souls
1 Saheeli, sublime artificer
1 Start // Finish
Disruption (15)
4 Path to Exile
2 Fatal Push
2 Lightning Helix
2 Mardu Charm
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Faithless Looting
Lands (23)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
2 Clifftop Retreat
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Graven Cairns
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Alpine Moon
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Stony Silence
1 Teyo, the Shieldmage
2 Wear // Tear
2 Bitterblossom
1 Elesh Norn, grand Cenobite
Rather than compromise the number, I turned back to the swiss knife Mardu Charm, which gives us what we need when we need it - instant speed duress if you're set up but the opponent is leaving up mana, so you can check if the coast is clear on their end step, or tokens, which incidentally do very nice against bloodghasts and bushwhackers, and last but not least removal that can handle anything up to a hollow one size, though it falls short in the Shadow match up.
Another card which adds removal without losing on the token generator count is Start // Finish. I'd long used this card in BW tokens, and I figure it will do just as well here. The instant speed token generation along with the additional removal half that plays well with looting is something I'm looking forward to appraise.
The big change is the complete removal of bolts and intangible virtues. Any token beat-down will be 1 point at a time. I've since learnt that in this crazy aggro meta, I need to be either better at beatdown or really good at control - and beating nix/humans/spirits/DS/burn is a lost cause. BW tokens can race because of 2 major things - they have Intangible Virtues where the combo should be, so they have the full complement of disruptions, and secondly, they have Sorin and Collective brutality main. Which leads me to my next point:
I've moved Lightning Helix to the maindeck. I've also added Teyo, the Shieldmage to the sideboard. Bitterblossoms were moved from main to side as well. This is in recognition of the highly aggressive meta I'm facing. Blossom shines in midrange and control matches, and I'm just not seeing that. When the meta is aggro and tron with only a splash of UW, I'm quite sure this is the right decision.
I'm considering making space for Shatterstorm in the side in case I run into Affinity or Lantern control. Their presence since to have diminished recently, but if you seeing a lot of that, might wanna make room for it.
Other card's I'm considering:
1. Collective Brutality, again for that aggro MU
2. Crumble to Dust, for none other than Tron, since they can eventually break out of Alpine moon with nature's claim.
Are you referring to Gigadrowse? Its a sideboard card in Storm for making sure you can perform your combo unmolested. Definitely a card to consider but you're going to need to produce a tonne of blue. Your deck would definitely need some number of Cascade Bluffs.
1. There is a nonzero chance that you might not draw any of your 12 fetches when you want to, or you might need the fetch to correct your mana and then be left dry with combo in the hand and no fodder.
2. With only a singleton fodder in your deck, a single removal spell will mean multiple dead cards in your deck until you can get saheeli online and produce some tokens from there. More token generation would be good, since you have 6 combo cards.
Recommendations in blue:
Cloudform - doesn't get picked up by creativity, but can be used to create a 2/2 hexproof. jokes on you if you accidentally manifest the payoff card, though.
Callous Dismissal - bounce something, make a token, at instant speed. Use it defensively in conjunction with your combo, or just deal with an ensnaring bridge.
1. Instant speed - this is the most recognized trait and the benefits are both obvious and well documented, I won't expand further.
2. Combo with Legion's Landing - this was missed out. Following up Legion's landing with Raise the Alarm means a turn 3 flip. This means 2 things. Against a control or midrange deck, they now have to deal with a land that's producing a life linking token every turn. Secondly, you have access to 4 mana on turn 3, meaning a full turn forward to combo off.
In a meta where people are ignoring you and racing to cast ad nauseum or storm off, this card will surely feel bad. Conversely, when you're up against counterspells and removals, you'll want this instant speed threat maker.
I'm not sure what else would be as good on this point in the curve. You have bitterblossom, but if anything its even worse a topdeck, and plays badly against aggro decks like phoenix, spirits and humans. One could stock up on more discard or removal, but now you risk diluting your token generators. Alternatively you could use the very top-deck friendly Mardu Charm, but then your curve would look really weird.
Overall, the threat presented by Raise the Alarm in conjunction with Landing gives you an advantage. When all the surprise is gone and opponents know your deck (which is the case in my LGS), playing a landing t1 and then holding up t2 means the opponent doesn't dare tap out. This throws them off curve which is definitely to your advantage.
If budget is a concern, you can consider either Mardu Charm as a versatile, higher curve option or simply duress.
Blue has a hard time dealing with enchantments, and yes they have less ways to search for lands as well. They trade that in for countermagic and a combo that wins straight out with slaver. however this is better for us, since our moon comes down turn 1 and stony silence can stop them effectively.
T1 - IOK or TS
T2 - Wrench Mind or Fall
T3 - Lily of the Veil or removal of early creatures + more discard
T4 - by the time you cast JTMS here, there should be hardly any opposition. If there's threat you can bounce it and uptick lily, or downtick lily to kill it and brainstorm.
T5 - NBDG comes down and its downhill for the opponent from here.