Given how the Aether Revolt standard meta evolved, it seems correct to ban copycat, but its very interesting to me that the actual splinter twin-exarch combo existed briefly in standard without dominating (supported by spell pierce, gitaxian probe, mana leak, lightning bolt, ponder and preordain no less!). Granted it was competing with other broken decks, even post JTMS/stoneforge ban, but I hope that this new team, when it encounters broken environments, will identify ways to power up competing strategies rather than just nerfing cards.
Also, it seems as if future future league, which probably has a lot of people involved in the design/development of the cards they're testing, may be too preoccupied with what their cards are "supposed" to do, rather than what they can do. If the play design team has a lot of people on it who don't design cards themselves, they'll have fresh eyes when looking at a set, and may be able to more correctly evaluate cards and environments.
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- Lord Seth
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May 19, 20172
NornThisWay posted a message on WOTC adds new department to ensure less mistakes happen.Posted in: The Rumor Mill -
May 19, 20176
Dontrike posted a message on WOTC adds new department to ensure less mistakes happen.Posted in: The Rumor MillQuote from Manite »Hand destruction, land destruction, counterspells, taxes, and cheap removal are things the majority of players hate.
Want to give a source for this?
And claiming they've been removed when we have stuff like Ceremonious Rejection, Fatal Push, and Dissenter's Deliverance is just asinine.
The first card is so specific that no one is going to use it unless it is required by the meta. The 2nd is amazing and that can't be argued. The 3rd on the other hand you act like that existed while Vehicle problems were everywhere. Deliverance has only been out a couple weeks, but before that getting rid of artifacts was a huge problem. Before Deliverance there was Fragmentize and....a bunch of expensive answers because for some reason WotC didn't want you being able to destroy artifacts, almost at all, even though they took over for months.
When the hand destruction, land destruction, counterspells, taxes, and cheap removal get better, everything else has to get better....
Which is weird because spells got worse while creatures stayed just as good, if not better, over time. So if creatures continued to get strong over time why didn't spells get better in turn? Titans and Baneslayer were answers to spells, but once spells got worse why did creatures need to stay just as good?
NEWS FLASH: Pushed, overly-dominant cards aren't fun, no matter what they do.
This is true.
The difference is that a Baneslayer Angel can still be Doom Bladed. A Heart of Kiran can be Shattered. Permanents still have removal to keep them in check. What keeps pushed counterspells in check? Uncounterable spells, and, oh yeah, counterspells.
No one is asking for pushed counterspells or removal, they are asking for those that are good enough.
Honestly, this kind of hypocrite mentality makes me not take a lot of criticism around here seriously, because in the end, it's the same complaints the "other team" would be spewing, only in reverse.
It's not hypocrisy to see that one segment of the game isn't matching up and wanting that fixed. Doesn't matter if it is when creature or spells are too good.
Quote from orlouge82 »
First, cheap land destruction needs to go away and never come back. The single element that makes a game of Magic into a very un-fun non-game is mana screw, and somehow people argue that printing cheap land destruction is healthy for the game? If you want to play cards by yourself so badly, just play solitaire.
While cheap land destruction is a problem having proper land destruction can be good for the game. Take Valakut for an example, if there wasn't Tectonic Edge Valakut would have been nigh unbeatable, even with Cawblade around. Having decent land destruction can help certain Standard seasons from having 4 or 5 color good stuff decks and punishes them for stretching themselves too thin.
Hand destruction is doing just fine now. Instead of just reprinting Duress and Distress ad nauseum, they're creating new hand disruption cards like Lay Bare the Heart, which is actually very powerful since the cards that it can't hit can easily be killed with removal -- especially since they've scaled back on Hexproof so much thanks to players whining about creatures getting too strong.
I can agree that hand disruption is about right in Standard's current season, but I think it went from subpar to about perfect when Lay Bare the Heart came out, before that there was only one decent discard spell, but now there are two, which helps things immensely.
And you're going to actually complain about taxes when they just reprinted Aven Mindcensor in a Standard legal set?
You realize they were able to reprint it because it does close to nothing right now, right? That card taxes what, Nissa's Renewal, Attune with Aether, Inventor's Fair, Evolving Wilds, and that's it? There's a reason why it isn't being played, because there is close to nothing to tax. Still a great reprint though.
Or printed Gideon's Intervention
That isn't a tax card.
Neither is either part of that.
Disallow is arguably one of the strongest counters ever printed.
It was also strong when Voidslime was printed, because they do the exact same thing and both are good, but saying "one of the strongest" is a bit of a stretch. One of the most versatile I'd say.
They also just reprinted Essence Scatter.[ Commit // Memory is incredibly versatile on the front in being able to "counter" spells (even uncounterable ones), or remove any troublesome permanents except lands, and being an expensive Timetwister on the back end. Fatal Push may be the best cheap removal ever printed (aside, perhaps, from Swords to Plowshares).
Essense Scatter is a great counterspell, in the right environments. It is a good addition here as Standard is so creature focused right now, but with Vehicles it isn't as great.
Commit // Memory is one that I'm surprised isn't played more, but just because it has Timetwister attached to it doesn't mean it is automatically amazing. Without a home to be played in the card just doesn't shine, although it does have some power behind it.
Fatal Push is certainly strong, one of the best removal spells in the game with such a low cost, but in Standard its full potential isn't always utilized. Outside of Standard the card is fantastic and one of the best additions the game has had, and it was a definite right step in the right direction for Standard, but to get Revolt going you are usually losing a card just to kill something else, and 2-for-1'ing yourself is never a great feeling. -
May 3, 20171
prismatic elf posted a message on Why is there so little warning for bannings now?My only problem with MaRo is to me he seems to talks out of both sides of his mouth at times and speaks in riddles. I think if they are going to ban cards there should be at least a 2 week period before it goes into effect. Its unfair to ban cards one week before a big tournament with no grace period for players to playtest and have time to obtain cards for the deck. Most of us don't have a playsets of every card in standard, most of us focus are resource's on certain colors. At the moment most of my good cards are in GWB.Posted in: Magic General -
Apr 26, 20172
Aazadan posted a message on Temporary 4/24/17 banlist discussion threadPosted in: Modern ArchivesQuote from cfusionpm »
I tweeted at AF about exactly that because the verbiage used in this announcement sounds very grim. I don't expect a reply, but it's pretty disheartening considering how safe the deck would be in today's meta (and even MORE safe it would be with a corresponding Deceiver Exarch ban).
Every time I tell myself I won't get involved in a Splinter Twin argument, and without fail... I get pulled back in.
Twin was fine when it was in Standard, but that's because that Standard format had answers and other decks on a comparable power level. It's recent design philosophy that's the only reason Saheli had to be banned in Standard... they keep printing threats without answers.
I don't think this really means anything for Twin in the grand scheme of things. Twin was good, I don't think anyone questions that but it could also probably come back, or at minimum a swap ban with Exarch. Or, we can patiently wait for a couple years. Wizards will eventually realize their mistake with removal, and start printing better answers again (Push not withstanding). At which point Twin will definitely be safe. -
Apr 20, 20174
idSurge posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, metagame, and more! (3/13 update)Twin does not deserve its banned status. <-- Look mom, I too can make a statement without any kind of backing!Posted in: Modern Archives
It wont be unbanned though, because as people have demonstrated with Twin before, and Copy Cat in Standard, people cannot handle having to think about tapping out. Its a big reason Combo is hated too. It controls what the other player can do, assuming they are intelligent enough to consider the outcome of their actions.
Regardless. I predict (sadly) no unbans. The format is stable, and in a good place. Thats boring, but the facts. -
Apr 6, 20172
Billiondegree posted a message on Modern Amonket discussionPosted in: ModernQuote from khaosknight69 »
The only nonhaste creature burn runs is either lavaman who makes up for lack of haste by being shock-on-a-stick, or nacatl in naya which I personally don't like but can be good early game.
Eidolon of the Great Revel would like a word with you -
Mar 30, 20173
Zephyr Scarlet posted a message on Dear Wizards, we need to talk about Standard balancingPosted in: Standard ArchivesOne of the things I've heard is that you think Thoughtsieze was too strong for Standard, and was a good reason to avoid a needed reprint like Liliana of the Veil. The real problem was too much power was focused overall in mono-black devotion, not that one specific strong tool, and that other colors didn't have comparable tools to help them compete with thoughtseize.
Can't agree more on this one. It feels like a troll when they reprint something that is perfectly fine, give it to an already boosted midrange slugfest deck and then go "See guys? This is why we can't reprint Modern cards in Standard. They're too strong :^)". Just right now, people are saying that freaking Fetchlands are too strong for Standard and that they will never see print in Standard again because the 4C goodstuff degeneracy that happened not because fetchands but because they managed to slip fetcheable duals (seriously, what were they thinking when they decided to give Standard an Eternal-like manabase?) and with a block with emphasis on three colors still legal in Standard while they were at it. Fetchlands have been fine in previous standard format, but now they get the "too powerful"™ bull***** treatment.
Meanwhile no one bats an eye at the real culprit: the Battlelands. And of course no one does, since its the most recent design they need to sing it's praises and shill it like it was the best design ever while blaming the incompetence on fetchlands. Because hey, we need to complete the cycle after all, this one is not too powerful for Standard. -
Mar 26, 2017
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thememan posted a message on March 13th Bans?Posted in: Standard ArchivesQuote from SephX »Quote from lajube »So you do get the doomsaying then. This is exactly the problem: Answers are more expensive than threats now. When the opposite was true, the game was balanced because of the old problem of "wrong answer for the right threat". But what's it take to answer (4) Aetherworks Marvel? It's not (W) Fragmentize, because they get a free Ulamog and killed 2 lands. The only semi-viable answer out there is Negate, which has the opportunity cost of holding up mana waiting for it to come, so the cost is more than (1U). And then they cast other stuff.
Same story for every planeswalker. If you don't have creatures ready to smash it dead, the planeswalker generally gains an advantage. A spells deck can only compete if it uses permanents to enhance their power: Dynavolt Tower and Torrential Gearhulk.
Okay, so everybody plays permanents that gain advantage. Seems like a viable way for magic to be. I think it actually is. Except for the real problem here: The best permanents don't have good answers. Gideon, Marvel, Copy Cat.
I was referring to the doomsaying that Pithing Needle was too strong for the existing format. I mean, cards like Wrath of God and Doom Blade and Pithing Needle had been around so long by the time Core Sets went bye-bye, I just always assumed they'd be there. Not having them was among the worst decisions R&D has made, besides everything else they've done for 5 blocks now. We just keep consolidating all the power into such a small group of cards, so over and above the caliber of anything else in the set that we just keep shrinking the number of viable deck types. Now that a lot of them are getting shoe-horned into the Mythic rarity slot (Grim Flayer, Gideon, Heart, Marvel, Eldrazi, etc), decks are getting smaller in number and more expensive, to boot. Couple that with it being less fun with each set, it's no wonder attendance and streaming viewership is down. It sucks, plain and simple. No one wants to watch vehicle mirrors anymore than they wanted to watch Collected Company mirrors.
To be fair, I get the argument for not always wanting 4 cmc Wraths. You can't really make a 4 CMC wrath any better, and it's difficult to justify playing a 5 cmc wrath regardless of text. The reason Fumigate isn't played, for instance, isn't because its bad. It's actually pretty good in a "fair" meta game. It's that we currently are not in a "fair" meta game. We are in a metagame of incredibly sticky threats that dodge most removal already or can go off on their turn if you have to tap out for Fumigate on turn 5.
Equally, the lack of 4 cmc wraths is not the problem right now, either. It's arguable whether having Wrath of God or Supreme Verdict would actually fix the format at all; so many threats dodge those wraths completely that they really wouldn't work properly.
That said, the floor for a good 5 cmc wrath is much higher than that for a 4 cmc one, and this is something I don't think they realized. Adding trinket text to a wrath and tacking on a mana does not make a good wrath (End Hostilities/Planar Outburst come to mind).
I can understand not wanting to have the same exact cards present in the format at all times - but they really need to make sure that the gap being left open by removal these tools can be closed by something. A common example my group references at times is Doom Blade and Delerium Blade: If Doom Blade is keeping something like Delerium Blade difficult to justify playing (Say, a 2 cmc -2/-2 spell that destroys the creature on Delerium), and you use that as justification for removing Doom Blade, then you have to add Delerium Blade to the god damn mix. That's honestly the problem I've had with R&D's philosophy. The argument was that these spells were keeping other, cool spells from existing and yet they didn't print the damn cool cards that these cards were keeping from existing. Then the notion morphed into the ludicrous notion that removal made the format worse, somehow. Had the kept to the original premise of printing cards that are just as strong as the "staples", if not stronger in some contexts, but required a little more intricate deck building, we would have a much better format. That's not what they did, however. We just often get worse versions of fair cards, only now with useless Trinket Text. -
Mar 26, 20172
SephX posted a message on March 13th Bans?Posted in: Standard ArchivesQuote from lajube »So you do get the doomsaying then. This is exactly the problem: Answers are more expensive than threats now. When the opposite was true, the game was balanced because of the old problem of "wrong answer for the right threat". But what's it take to answer (4) Aetherworks Marvel? It's not (W) Fragmentize, because they get a free Ulamog and killed 2 lands. The only semi-viable answer out there is Negate, which has the opportunity cost of holding up mana waiting for it to come, so the cost is more than (1U). And then they cast other stuff.
Same story for every planeswalker. If you don't have creatures ready to smash it dead, the planeswalker generally gains an advantage. A spells deck can only compete if it uses permanents to enhance their power: Dynavolt Tower and Torrential Gearhulk.
Okay, so everybody plays permanents that gain advantage. Seems like a viable way for magic to be. I think it actually is. Except for the real problem here: The best permanents don't have good answers. Gideon, Marvel, Copy Cat.
I was referring to the doomsaying that Pithing Needle was too strong for the existing format. I mean, cards like Wrath of God and Doom Blade and Pithing Needle had been around so long by the time Core Sets went bye-bye, I just always assumed they'd be there. Not having them was among the worst decisions R&D has made, besides everything else they've done for 5 blocks now. We just keep consolidating all the power into such a small group of cards, so over and above the caliber of anything else in the set that we just keep shrinking the number of viable deck types. Now that a lot of them are getting shoe-horned into the Mythic rarity slot (Grim Flayer, Gideon, Heart, Marvel, Eldrazi, etc), decks are getting smaller in number and more expensive, to boot. Couple that with it being less fun with each set, it's no wonder attendance and streaming viewership is down. It sucks, plain and simple. No one wants to watch vehicle mirrors anymore than they wanted to watch Collected Company mirrors. -
Mar 25, 20171
JovianHomarid posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, metagame, and more! (3/13 update)For some reason, what bugs me the most about DRS' design was that they even gave it two toughness. As if it's just to prove that they really pushed it every little way they could.Posted in: Modern Archives - To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
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Granted, Opt saw play, but Opt is also Instant speed. I'm skeptical that Preordain would be that much of a boost to UWx Control, as it lacks the Instant-speed appeal of Opt, even if its effect is more powerful. That's not to say it wouldn't see play, but I don't see reason to believe it would be an automatic 4-of. It's the decks that are dependent on Serum Visions (or Sleight of Hand) which always run 4 copies that would get the real boost, and none of those decks seem good right now.
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I know I was surprised. I expected a Stoneforge Mystic or even Splinter Twin unban before they let Jace loose.
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If this was something that happened with multiple Standard sets in a row I could find your interpretation plausible, but as of right now it's entirely speculative.
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If X happened and diversity did not increase, then Y and Z happened and diversity did increase, there really is a lack of evidence that X (in this case the Splinter Twin ban) was an actual factor in increasing diversity. It's possible that without X, then Y and Z would not have accomplished what they did, but that unfortunately is a completely speculative argument.
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The claim of "dominance issues" in Tron is just plain inaccurate. Tron wasn't putting up much in the way of results prior to this tournament, then all of a sudden it does decently, most probably due to people discounting it due to it not appearing much in the Top 8's of the last few big tournaments, and then people complain about it being overpowered.
Also, Lantern Control has fallen off so much since the unbannings that citing it seems downright disingenuous. There wasn't even a single copy in the Top 32 of GP Las Vegas.
Also, Serum Visions does have noticeably more play than Ancient Stirrings, so claiming "about the same decks" seems inaccurate also. Interestingly, at times when Serum Visions was the 2nd most played card in the format, no one was calling for bannings or claiming that it was much better than the rest of the cantrips, even though in such cases it was seeing significantly more play than Ancient Stirrings is now... that seems rather inconsistent.
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