MTG Salvation

I feel like Ghost Quarter is better against G/R Tron and Infect, and Tectonic Edge is better against everything else.

Quote from TheBlackCat

I mean what if you have a playset of that and a playset of Crypt Incursion in one deck in a modern / legacy tournament?

Then your deck is likely terrible.

I'd still like to know where Wizards of the Coast made the comment that they would've banned stuff from Faeries or Jund if something like SCG had existed then.

The closest thing Modern has to a Force of Will is probably Thoughtseize, to be honest.

Quote from Crumpet

Why shouldn't you?

I'm...I'm sorry, but is this a serious question?

Quote from bocephus

Of course Legacy deck you own are safe. the format is 8+ years old. Its had its time to flesh itself out. Compare Legacy decks at the 2 year mark to Modern decks now ..at the 2 year mark.

Funny you mention that. At the 2-year mark (September 2006), the number of Legacy decks hit with bans in the format's history were...wait for it...

None.

The one and only ban in the first two years of Legacy was Imperial Seal, which invalidated exactly 0 decks in the format because it was banned before it became legal.

Quote from Fett2

Ground Seal over RIP because:
-Card advantage is very, very good in this deck. Any card can break open the game. Reanimator is already a good match-up, I'd rather get a card than a slightly more powerful effect.
-I side in Feeling of Dread against Reanimator.

Rest In Peace also doesn't shut off Rancor.

Even though it might result in more bans, if they want to put an actual limit on when decks can win, I'd prefer a hard-and-fast rule. Instead of this "can't win consistently before turn 4" that's more arbitrary than the doctrine of fair use, how about one that's immediately transparent, and ban any deck that can win at all on turn 2 or earlier in a goldfish match? It'd change the ban list a bit (add some cards, remove some cards), but overall I feel it'd stay fairly similar, and everyone could easily tell if a deck is in legitimate danger of a ban for it, rather than constantly having to worry about whether a deck qualifies for it or not.

Though I think trying to set up any kind of limit on how fast you can win is a bad idea, to be honest. No other format has or (I believe) has ever had a rule akin to this. Decks shouldn't be banned because they can win before some arbitrary point, they should be banned because they're legitimately too good or dominant.

Bloodbraid Elf was a reasonable ban because Jund was ridiculously dominant, people were expecting it, and, more importantly, it left the deck a very strong deck (though I still hold that unbannings--or not banning so many cards right off the bat--could have accomplished the same thing). Seething Song, on the other hand, hit a non-dominant deck that I saw practically no one complain about and took the deck out.

Quote from Calintares

Gush is restricted in Vintage and banned in Legacy, presumably because of how it interacts with Fastbond effects and High Tide.

Gush has anti-synergy with High Tide, so I have no idea how you arrived at the conclusion that it's banned for its interaction with that card.

Quote from Jeffww

you seem to be pretty offended by my arguments.

Because I found them very poor.

But you've missed the points I was trying to make. I meant costs in general are a barrier to entry. And for modern fetchlands are a large part of that barrier. Additionally, my point was that selling fetchlands along with shocks gives players immediate access to modern landbases. We would be in the long run improving the health of the game. At the cost of standard, where the top decks are already 3 or 4 colors, it would seem to be that the cost of such a release isn't actually as great.

Except the fetchlands are already not that hard to get. Zendikar wasn't that long ago. This wasn't like the shocklands, where they hadn't been printed since the original Ravnica.

There is no pressing, immediate need for a reprint of the fetchlands that necessitates ruining one format to slightly improve another.

Quote from Mikeageddon

I'm all for banning broken cards, but it's starting to look like cards are going to be banned that aren't broken or format warping themselves, but just good in a deck that's doing too consistently well. That's fine for now, but how many decks are there in the format that are one good card away from being too good? I'd say there's at least a few of them.

One of the draws to a non-rotating format is the thought of being able to play that deck/card you love playing for as long as you want. F
.

Exactly.

The eternals are emergent formats, Standard is a calculated format and Modern is quickly turning into a bonsai of a format rather than a crafted one. That's the problem.

Mind you: things like eggs? not so much a thing with a true control deck. Ditto for the ultra-large mana... and the control decks still wouldn't be able to counter everything, etc. Heck, as things go they don't get a real hard counter on 2. You think aggro decks that hope to coinflip Eggs for a g1 win will give those decks a lot of time?

You can keep pruning the format towards what you "want" and killing what sticks up, but that's unhealthy.

Reprinting certain tools (Innocent Blood) and allowing certian other traditional role-players would allow the format to need less direct steering and would give us hope that more steering wouldn't continue to happen.

So, sure, maybe AV and BB scare Wizards. Faeries didn't have a run on Old Extended and those decks were better without BB than with it (although, granted, mostly due to Laboratory Shenanigans). You need a deck like Fae to keep the "charge up mah lazer" decks honest.



And, sure, I'd support any ban that has to happen. If eggs does turn out to be a deck that's hits on t3 consistantly enough and/or turns out to be impossible to interact with by t4, then go for reshape or something.

But... remember: you kill bonsai's by pushing them too hard. And we're already stuck with a bonsai... that Wizards told us was an Evergreen format they could actually support. I don't like saying "but I like that branch", and I don't like having to worry that Modern, which's entire point to me is not being standard/being the magic I remember, will be scrubbed out deck by deck.

I mean, we've got a format where you *can* run eggs. Where else can you run that? It's not like you'd be able to run BB or the like in Legacy. This can be Superextended not be in any danger of being legacy.

Quote from Victor Sant

No matter what you say, no format can hold itself only with "self regulation", even legacy needed wizard to take actions on it.
But you can always close your eyes and pretend to not see that, but the things still there when you do this.

Self regulation only fails when there is one power that is far and away better than all other possible options. In that case, the format will push out all decks except that one.

CawBlade is a great example of self-regulation leading to just one deck. But that was Standard, in an incredibly shallow pool of answers.

After the Ravager Affinity bannings in Standard, we went from a very unhealthy metagame to arguably one of the most diverse Standard formats ever. More evidence that one superior deck is bad for diversity.

Looking at Legacy, the last time self-regulation failed was with Survival of the Fittest - a completely busted engine that had been the focus of banning debates for a long time. It was an established problem, and Necrotic Ooze took an already problematic interaction and compounded it to the point that a majority of strong decks in the format were underpinned by the same engine. Once again, the fault lies with a cardpool in which there was one strategy that was just better than the others.

Which brings me to Modern. First WotC banned the obvious T4 Rule breakers and the really warping stuff. Then they were afraid of UW, so they banned the strong control cards. Combo walks away with PT Philly. More bans under the T4 Rule. Now with weakened combo and weakened control, aggro is free to dominate - Zoo wins, til Nacatl gets a banning. Now that combo, control and aggro are weakened, Jund rises. BBE gets banned and Midrange is set back half a step.

What happens next? Well If I were to take a guess, following the theme here, I'd say either something in Tempo or something in Ramp goes next. Probably St. Traft or Emrakul, followed by the other one in about 6 months.

So after that, every major style of play will have been hit roughly equally with bans, and we should have an acceptable metagame. That begs the question though - would it have been balanced at the start if just the T4 violators and warpers were hit and the format was left to sort itself out between Caw, Faeries, slowed affinity, slowed storm, twin, zoo, tron, Jund, etc?

We'll never know, but one thing we do know is that it appeases the Legacy crowd that wants to keep them separated, for better or worse in the long run, even if it might have been completely unnecessary in the first place.

Quote from Victor Sant

Yes you can this all the week, because you simply don't have a point, so the only thing that you can do is is try to invalidate mine.

I never said that that allowing WotC to regulate for us will ensure a good and healthy format.
What I said was that leaving the format to fix itself is no guaranty that the result will be good. Wich don't automatically means that i belive that Wizards controlling it will ensure a healthy meta. I really hope for that, but i know that there is a possibility of that wizards fails. Both options have possibility of fail.
So instad of being so worried in making my point invalid putting words on my mouth, you should be worried in making your own points,

I can say that this "self regulation" can fail (a possibility, not saying that it would automatically fail if used), why? Because it already failed on other formats. Or you forgot what happend on extended with Faeries and CawBlade? Wizard let the format to regulate itself and the result is was very unhealthy meta. If it happened once, theres a possibility of happening again. Denying that this possibility exist is just foolish.

No matter what you say, no format can hold itself only with "self regulation", even legacy needed wizard to take actions on it.
But you can always close your eyes and pretend to not see that, but the things still there when you do this.

No.

This simply isn't accurate.

First of all, what this entire argument is about (and it has degenerated into an argument) is how tight of a leash Modern actually needs to be a good and enjoyable format for a wide audience so that Wizards can make money, to keep the game going. "Self-Regulation" refers to a loose leash: only banning the cards that really warp the format, trying to have the largest card pool possible within the rules of the format, and generally listening to the player base at all levels about what is actually going on. This has worked in the past with Legacy, various Standard environs, and actual Old Extended- not that doomed fustercluck "Double Standard."

The other end of the spectrum is what we are experiencing right now: A strict ban list with a huge number of playable cards on it, that gets bigger just about every update. Look what its gotten us: Jund, UWR Tempo, Spirit Jund, BUG Midrange, Junk Midrange, Eggs, Twin, Melira Pod, RUG Cryptic Tempo, Twin Pod, UW Geist, Storm, RG Tron, UW Tron, 4-color Gifts, and a few Esper Control lists. Aggro is nearly dead, holding on with RDW, Boggles, and Robots- not able to keep up with combo, midrange, or tempo. They're okay against Tron and some control decks.

There are essentially four shells that really work: BGx Midrange, GWx Pod, URx Tempo, and UR Combo. Overwhelmingly, that is what is in any given top 8. That's not a format, that's a joke. A lot of it has to do with some of the more bizzarre choices Wizards has made on the banned list.

Your "argument" is that WotC knows what it's doing- which I simply cannot find a shred of evidence for in the Modern. You talk about "other reasons" than the turn 4 rule or the percentage of the Meta for banning, but you don't seem to know what they are any more than we do. Perhaps they gave Zac Hill gas- we don't know, and that's our problem. You, on the other hand, have actually agreed that quite a few cards can safely come off the ban list- except when you play on uncertainty to try to obfuscate real, intelligent conversation.

All of your points are refuted by simply turning them around on you, because there simply is so little substance to them. You invoke the names Faeries and Cawblade to provoke a reaction of fear and it doesn't mean anything. Cawblade never faced Oblivion Ring, and that had a lot to do with its dominance. Wizards simply forgot to print a good answer to planeswalkers in the block. Faeries was a strong deck, but it wasn't even the strongest deck of its Standard Cycle- Tezzerator was, backed by Thopter Foundry/Time Sieve.

More playable cards means a broader audience, which means that the format will survive longer. No format lasts forever, as we can see with Vintage and its massive barrier to entry. However, we can try to make it last as long as possible.

Legacy's popularity has a lot to do with businesses outside WotC, like Star City Games, putting money into it. Standard is the easiest constructed format to get access to the cards. Old Extended died because people forgot about it in the rise of the much more exciting Legacy, and because outside economy wasn't pumped into it. That's why WotC made Modern- to get enough hype for outside companies to push capital into it. It worked. Now it's about maintaining a meta that won't cause the whole thing to implode, like it appears to be doing.

So bluntly, no. Your points are fairly invalid. Good day.

You're not losing to a card, you're losing to a deck.

What is JTMS on the battlefield by himself with no other permanents? Well, really good obviously, but the point is if you can beat down the deck itself, you've already beaten Jace.

Decks that play Jace are not "glass jaw" decks. You can't silver bullet them away with an answer like Pithing Needle or just Thoughtseizing it out of their hand, Esperblade will still come back with Entreat, Top, Brainstorm, Plow, SFM, Snapcaster etc. Bug control will still punish you with Liliana and Pernicious Deed.

You know, to be brutally honest the 2 things you hear the most when unbanning Jace are

A.) Price will be to high
B.) It is way to format warping

WoTC has stated secondary prices are not of their concern but of the players and stores, they sell set product at set price and people who collect pay those prices. Modern masters is an attempt to reintroduce cards to powerful for standard not to lower the cost of goyfs. And if jace's availability becomes a problem or any cards become scarce you know their will be a Modern Masters 2 most likely seeing as WoTC is "Trying" to push the format forward.

Now, as for jace being format warping? what does he actually impact himself as a card.

Will Scapeshift not play 7 lands if you resolve a jace?
Will affinity not play Cranial plating because you have a jace?
Will Storm just not cast spells?
Will Red Deck Wins prioritize jace instead of your life total?
Will pod become less efficient at comboing off?
Will Jund cascade into Abrupt decay's only against jace?
Will Martyr Proc stop playing creatures?
Will Splintertwin not end step an exarch?
Will Tron stop playing Turn 3 Karns?
Will Infect not pump their guy?

He has a very low power level compared to what other decks are currently doing in modern. If your argument is solely "But you just build your jace deck to combat those decks" I just listed 10 of the first tier 1 deck's i could list off the top of my head and making your blue deck beat those 10 decks in 75 cards seems pretty unrealistic. I don't know how you are going to put 25 lands 4 jaces and 31 spells together to Stop yourself from the following.

turn 3 Karn
20 points of direct burn
1000000000 1/4 Exarchs
25 copies of grapeshot
Bloodbraid Elf
people at 50 life
10 infect on turn 2
4 Mana sorcery that deals upward of 36 damage with Boseiju backup
5 robots and a metal hat on turn 2
Birthing Pod

And you only have 15 sideboard slots to defeat those 1st 10 decks. i posted let alone the other ones i can't come up with immediately.

Now, If you can put 4 Jaces, Sufficient amount of land, and spells together to combat that kind of meta game. You are worthy of a Pro tour sponsorship invite.