All of the grave hate that is in Legacy is also in Modern. So its not really a supprise that the format can deal with dredge if it has to. The problem is that legacy has brainstorm and top and tutors it can go get the hate easily. We can't in modern, we just have to draw it which means we have to stuff the sideboard a full of 4+ pieces of grave hate.
Dredge I feel really is on the Twin level of decks, but harder to hate out but harder for it to interact. So whille it can look like its fine its really pushing a lot of decks out of the format and horribly warping sideboards. I think I just convinced myself to ban GGT :/. Still cathartic renunion is so in your face, "this is good in dredge" card printed that isn't even good in standard (because Spell queller is too painful)
A become immense ban for infect/sucide zoo is just to stop the decks breaking turn 4 rule all the time. Typically they can't break it consistantly enough with just mutagenic growth that takes up too many cards for them, fetch lands basically count double for become immense. The forcing players to interact is the same as was for Twin and that is banned its not a good arguement.
Agreed. Cathartic Reunion was aimed squarely at modern. Delirium doesn't run red. It does help B/R Zombies tho.
Yes, BI ban wouldn't be to kill the infect/deathshadow deck, just stop it from being the fastest consistent deck in the format(other decks can kill turn 2 but you've never hear dof them(unless you watch MTGGoldfish) because they're not consistent).
If they wanted to kill infect, they would ban Inkmoth Nexus.
basically they support my views: remove 8th and 9th, BAN ggt, become immense, mox opal, ssg , primeval titan.
-want control to be good in modern? ban these cards.
-want the format to be slower and less linear? ban these cards.
-tired of waiting for better generic answers(fow, counterspell) to enter through standard that never will? ban these cards
do these bans match ban crieria? no, but this is more of a overhaul of the format which is needed if we want the above.
I disagree with the fetch land idea however, having multi coloured sideboard options is one of our ways of combating linearity.
Here's the thing, Affinity has never been oppressive or broken in Modern. Artifact hate is widely abundant so banning Mox Opal would just about kill the deck for no reason.
I would imagine Cathartic Reunion was a card meant for modern and a way to fuel delirium in standard. I don't think they saw how good it was paired with GGT. If they don't ban it, then GGT is the easy choice.
At first I was not on the become immense ban wagon but yeah, paying 1 mana for +6/+6 is too good for modern. Other than that, modern seems fine. Neither of those bans kill their respective decks.
Not sure how I feel about making modern ad really big version of extended. It would help keep it fresh while maintaining a very large card pool. Eventually, Modern will have too many cards and they'll either make a giant extended format or move up the cut off date past 8th edition.
If anything from Infect is going to be banned, it is Become Immense. There is already a precedent for banning Delve cards, and this is seemingly the most broken one still allowed.
If anything from Dredge is going to be banned, it is likely going to be Golgari Grave-Troll. None of the draw spells or creatures are particularly overpowered if you aren't drawing/milling cards at a 6:1 ratio. That being said, it would be pretty awkward to have to re-ban a card they recently unbanned...
As for unbans, I think Preordain is very safe, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Bloodbraid Elf are moderately safe. I also think the Artifact Lands might be okay, but I'd need to think some more about that.
Have you lost your mind? Where do I start. First, preordain IMO should stay banned. It would make combo decks even better as it's a strict upgrade over both slide of hand and serum visions. I agree with Ryan Overturf that the card Opt would be the best compromise. Helps delver decks without making them broken and combo decks like to get deeper so the scry 1 isn't enough for them.
JTMS I could see give a test unban and announcing it as such. Basically "hey we're unbanning this but if it proves to be broke, we will ban again.(IMO the better card to unban is Stone Blade Mystic and is safer).
I personally think Cascade is a broken mechanic, especially when stapled on a 3/2 haste body. It would be in Jund so so it's not like you're going to hit any ad nauseum level spells but IMO going BBE into free LotV or Goyf feels broken beyond the power level of modern. Plus, Jund doesn't need cards to unban. They are already an amazing deck.
And finally...seriously, unban artifact lands....have you ever played against affinity and seen how good darksteel citadel is for us. Now add 2-4 more that count as artifacts. As an affinity player, I am saying don't unban them because it would then be Affinity winter instead of eldrazi winter.
Conflagrate is a laughable ban at its best. It's primarily an answer, even if it fits the dredge agenda of the deck. this card is nowhere near to bannable. Cathartic Reunion is a not a good target, either because red's colour pie will give us similar cards in the future. We surely can't ban them every time. Prized Amalgam is not a good target either, because this creature was printed to fill the flavour of the set. It was not printed as a Draft, Standard, or Modern reasons. We are going to see other similar Amalgams in the future, for sure.
If one wants to hit Dredge, he should go for either Faithless Looting or mainly Golgari Grave-Troll.
January, 16:
Bans: No bans
Unbans: Unban something(possibley Preordain but this has to be tested out)
GGT ban just does nothing. Amalgam ban would kill dredge. If anything the have to ban one of the loot effects (Reunion or faithless; again here your argument for cartatic applies to faithless as well) or maybe conflag. In my opinion Carthatic Reunion would be the safest bet (dredge could replace it with tormenting voice and would just loose a bt of speed).
That all said im not sure if a ban is really necessary
You are right that this argument applies to Faitless Looting as well. But are we ever going to get a different looter at 1 mana in type 2? As freaking good as Faithless Looting? If yes, Lootings should not be a target at all.
Golgari Grave-Troll slows the deck down. At the same time, Dredge is less consistent. They rely solely on their other Dredgers. This should be the ideal ban IMO.
To answer your question, there is no way they print a same or better version of faithless looting. could possibly be a reprint in standard if they bring back the flashback mechanic in a set. Cathartic Reunion is about as good as it will get as long as MTG stays creature centric.
Looting is good in and out of dredge. It's like a mini powered-down brainstorm that leaves you a card behind. Great filter spell. Reunion only see's play in dredge so banning that would be very safe and wouldn't kill dredge.
I've been saying it for a couple weeks now...if they don't ban reunion, then they owe treasure cruise an apology. It is every bit as powerful in dredge that cruise was for delver decks. Objectively, cruise is the better card for modern as it is usually 1-2 mana draw three instant speed. But subjectively, reunion plus GGT or S-Imp is borderline broken for the dredge deck.
Banning Amalgum would simply remove dredge from tier 1(possibly tier 2). There was dredge before with vengevine. To my knowledge, Amalgam is what started people playing dredge again.
So I'm relatively new to MTG starting last August(though I did play for about 6 months in 1995) but I keep hearing over and over that WotC does not acknowledge the secondary market exists or talk card prices(directly). My question is why? Is it a legal reason? Just a company policy?
It's clear they release products to help with card prices(modern/eternal masters, conspiracy type reprints, masterpiece series etc) just they never address it directly. Just curious as to why.
Infect and Emblems both have the same answer: kill the source.
Ugh seriously, that's your answer. That logic works with anything and therefor nothing. Oh, we can't kill this op creature, kill the player instead. Oh, this combo is broken, kill the player instead.
In case you didn't notice, Infect is the most consistent turn 3 deck in modern. Which means you're more likely than them to be dead by turn 3.
xecel - I will address your point as it was actually well written and thought out. I honestly didn't know about the card leeches but yes I agree, 3 mana and a 1 shot effect simply would be too slow for modern.
Emblems I'm more ok with because most you have to work for. Gideon's is fine because you are essentialy paying 4 mana for glorious anthem that can't be removed. I think at some point emblems will be interactable, but right now, no big deal IMO because like you said, you had to work for it.
About poison counters, I don't dislike alt win cons per se(i loathe cards that use the word "game" as it kills the suspension of disbelief). I don't like how there is little downside for using infect though(and giving an infect creature unblockable by default was mindblowingly stupid by R/D). Maybe they could bring it back, keep it at 10 counters needed, but add on for every poison counter you inflict, you loose 1 point of life, which IMO would make it more balanced.
Or, and if you've played video games you'll get this but poison typically goes away after time passes so they could make a rule(again if they decide to bring back infect) that each turn the opp may remove 1 poison counter. If they do, they lose 2 life, or discard a card(or exile a card from their hand) or something to make poison counters intractable.
I agree with the spirit of the OP topic. I think everything in the game should be able to be interacted with in some way, and countering doesn't count.
I would say a more egregious example are poison counters. WotC clearly feels that mechanic is broken but they have yet to print any dedicated hate for it outside melira, and even she can't interact with it, just stop more from being accumulated.
I'm very shocked WotC never printed an anti infect artifact or enchantment the level of stony silence or rest in peace. Those cards are simply backbreaking against their respective decks and yet we have no 1X echantment "Remove all poison counters. Additional Poison Counters cannot be accumulated" or Artifact 2cmc "Sac this artifact: Remove all poison counters. Target player cannot receive Poison counters this turn". Or would this 1 card make Infect unplayable? Stony Silence hasn't taken Affinity out of Tier 1. Rest In Peace and the scads of Gy hate hasn't kept modern dredge from winning.
With Combo Decks being hated out by U/W Flash and other blue decks, Does G/B Delirium have any bad matchups? Ishkana is IMO the most important card in the deck. Much like it was against Bant Company, it shuts down so many decks. Bant had Coco to power thru Ishkana(and believe me, I am not asking to bring back coco) Is it too good? 6 power and 11 toughness across 4 bodies all with reach for 5 mana.
Short of a return of combo decks, what deck can beat B/G Delirium consistently?
I love my B/R Zombie deck, but Ishkana is so tough. Kalitas is annoying but a timely lightning ax or ULD and you're good. I hate to say but without GY hate to consistently deny delirium, I don't see Aether Revolt having a card that can swing the meta. It sux that I am calling for GY hate because it also hoses Zombies. Maybe a dedicated anti delirium card like '1 mana artifact "All cards in GY count only as 1 type of your choice"' .
I could definitely see Amankhet having a Tormod's Crypt Reprint(only with an egyptian theme).
Good card...yet. Ban worthy...Not IMO. Why? Because it can go into so many decks. This isn't a Coco situation where you're deck had to have alot of 2-3 mana creatures and a main color be green. Copter can go in r/w aggro, r/b aggro, r/b zombies, w/u flash, b/g delirium etc. Anything short of a pure control or combo deck can run it.
I imagine with Aether Revolt, red gets a really good artifact kill spell to go along with white and green(remember smash to smithereens...think of the liability copter is then).
What I'm more concerned with now with the combo decks being hated out by U/W Flash, G/B Delirium doesn't seem to have any bad matchups. Ishkana is just so good. Kalitas is annoying against Zombies but Ishkana is just impossible to beat.
Here's a weird question: Affinity on the surface seams very powerful. Able to attack and win with infect and normal damage. But it's all artifacts meaning kill cards are cheaper than creature kill cards and modern has among the best anti artifact cards in MTG...so how does it keep winning?
I'm puzzled in a format where lightning bolt is abundant, that low toughness/high power creatures could survive. Elves do it by being able to use quick mana to spit out a bunch of them then pump with lords and ezuri. Merfolk do it thru 8x of the cheapest lords in magic(though Thalia's Lieut is pretty good for humans) and aethervial.
If I were to answer this question, I would say the combination of being able to play many spells T1, quick mana from mox opal and springleaf drum, combined with arcbound ravager and etched champion make the deck very fast and resilient to spot removal.
Is that about it?
I mean here is a deck that hasn't added any new cards maindeck(with the exception of springleaf) in what, over 5 years and is always a tier 1 deck. If they printed any creatures good enough for modern affinity, it's likely to get ban-nerfed because their creatures are already so good. But again, lightning bolt and very efficient artifact hate just baffles me that it doesn't make the deck worse than it is.
In disclosure, I ask the question because I am just starting to play it because it appeals to me on a couple different levels. I love tribal decks. I love creature decks(even non green based mid range creature decks). But I also like interactive decks. Yes Affinity can goldfish but whipflare and galvanic blast satisfy that interaction itch. Point being I can see myself playing the deck for a long time so I am soaking up as much info as possible. Thanks
How is Affinity's Dredge Matchup? It recently took top spot from Affinity in the meta(according to mtggoldfish) so Im curious how affinity does against it. I have my list all built except still missing 3 ravagers. Once I get those, it's time to robot.
IMO, standard is anything but boring right now. You have a legit deck in any style you like. Bant company at 40% meta was boring.
Once red get's it's trade mark smash to smithereens lever artifact killer (likely in aether revolt), copter will be a good but very manageable card.
I can tell you though, playing b/r zombies, that copter has prolly died before it ever got to attack about as much as it got to attack. Now my deck doesn't need to play copter on T2 like r/w vehicles does so it could be that I am giving people more time to deal with it but still.
In your opinion(keyword is opinion), do you consider a deck like Jund, with generally 40-60% matchups across the field to be the better/higher tier deck overall...
or
A deck like Affinity, with some great matchups and some horrible ones and a few in the middle.
IOW, do you feel a deck is better if it can get basically free wins more often but has some matchups that are really tough(free losses), or a deck that has a decent chance in every match but almost no free wins.
I used Affinity as the second type deck but you could substitute which ever deck you feel fits that paradigm.
The poll question, all things being otherwise equal, which deck would you consider better.
The question does not include variance like if a particular deck is hot right now and your deck either has a great or horrible matchup against it. It's more of a philisophical question than a "What deck should I play this particular weekend".
Agreed. Cathartic Reunion was aimed squarely at modern. Delirium doesn't run red. It does help B/R Zombies tho.
Yes, BI ban wouldn't be to kill the infect/deathshadow deck, just stop it from being the fastest consistent deck in the format(other decks can kill turn 2 but you've never hear dof them(unless you watch MTGGoldfish) because they're not consistent).
If they wanted to kill infect, they would ban Inkmoth Nexus.
Here's the thing, Affinity has never been oppressive or broken in Modern. Artifact hate is widely abundant so banning Mox Opal would just about kill the deck for no reason.
I would imagine Cathartic Reunion was a card meant for modern and a way to fuel delirium in standard. I don't think they saw how good it was paired with GGT. If they don't ban it, then GGT is the easy choice.
At first I was not on the become immense ban wagon but yeah, paying 1 mana for +6/+6 is too good for modern. Other than that, modern seems fine. Neither of those bans kill their respective decks.
Not sure how I feel about making modern ad really big version of extended. It would help keep it fresh while maintaining a very large card pool. Eventually, Modern will have too many cards and they'll either make a giant extended format or move up the cut off date past 8th edition.
Have you lost your mind? Where do I start. First, preordain IMO should stay banned. It would make combo decks even better as it's a strict upgrade over both slide of hand and serum visions. I agree with Ryan Overturf that the card Opt would be the best compromise. Helps delver decks without making them broken and combo decks like to get deeper so the scry 1 isn't enough for them.
JTMS I could see give a test unban and announcing it as such. Basically "hey we're unbanning this but if it proves to be broke, we will ban again.(IMO the better card to unban is Stone Blade Mystic and is safer).
I personally think Cascade is a broken mechanic, especially when stapled on a 3/2 haste body. It would be in Jund so so it's not like you're going to hit any ad nauseum level spells but IMO going BBE into free LotV or Goyf feels broken beyond the power level of modern. Plus, Jund doesn't need cards to unban. They are already an amazing deck.
And finally...seriously, unban artifact lands....have you ever played against affinity and seen how good darksteel citadel is for us. Now add 2-4 more that count as artifacts. As an affinity player, I am saying don't unban them because it would then be Affinity winter instead of eldrazi winter.
To answer your question, there is no way they print a same or better version of faithless looting. could possibly be a reprint in standard if they bring back the flashback mechanic in a set. Cathartic Reunion is about as good as it will get as long as MTG stays creature centric.
Looting is good in and out of dredge. It's like a mini powered-down brainstorm that leaves you a card behind. Great filter spell. Reunion only see's play in dredge so banning that would be very safe and wouldn't kill dredge.
I've been saying it for a couple weeks now...if they don't ban reunion, then they owe treasure cruise an apology. It is every bit as powerful in dredge that cruise was for delver decks. Objectively, cruise is the better card for modern as it is usually 1-2 mana draw three instant speed. But subjectively, reunion plus GGT or S-Imp is borderline broken for the dredge deck.
Banning Amalgum would simply remove dredge from tier 1(possibly tier 2). There was dredge before with vengevine. To my knowledge, Amalgam is what started people playing dredge again.
(2 x 4)2 mana lords is why merfolk do so well lol. I would bet faeries would do better if Scion of Oona were UU instead of 2U.
It's clear they release products to help with card prices(modern/eternal masters, conspiracy type reprints, masterpiece series etc) just they never address it directly. Just curious as to why.
In case you didn't notice, Infect is the most consistent turn 3 deck in modern. Which means you're more likely than them to be dead by turn 3.
xecel - I will address your point as it was actually well written and thought out. I honestly didn't know about the card leeches but yes I agree, 3 mana and a 1 shot effect simply would be too slow for modern.
Emblems I'm more ok with because most you have to work for. Gideon's is fine because you are essentialy paying 4 mana for glorious anthem that can't be removed. I think at some point emblems will be interactable, but right now, no big deal IMO because like you said, you had to work for it.
About poison counters, I don't dislike alt win cons per se(i loathe cards that use the word "game" as it kills the suspension of disbelief). I don't like how there is little downside for using infect though(and giving an infect creature unblockable by default was mindblowingly stupid by R/D). Maybe they could bring it back, keep it at 10 counters needed, but add on for every poison counter you inflict, you loose 1 point of life, which IMO would make it more balanced.
Or, and if you've played video games you'll get this but poison typically goes away after time passes so they could make a rule(again if they decide to bring back infect) that each turn the opp may remove 1 poison counter. If they do, they lose 2 life, or discard a card(or exile a card from their hand) or something to make poison counters intractable.
I would say a more egregious example are poison counters. WotC clearly feels that mechanic is broken but they have yet to print any dedicated hate for it outside melira, and even she can't interact with it, just stop more from being accumulated.
I'm very shocked WotC never printed an anti infect artifact or enchantment the level of stony silence or rest in peace. Those cards are simply backbreaking against their respective decks and yet we have no 1X echantment "Remove all poison counters. Additional Poison Counters cannot be accumulated" or Artifact 2cmc "Sac this artifact: Remove all poison counters. Target player cannot receive Poison counters this turn". Or would this 1 card make Infect unplayable? Stony Silence hasn't taken Affinity out of Tier 1. Rest In Peace and the scads of Gy hate hasn't kept modern dredge from winning.
Short of a return of combo decks, what deck can beat B/G Delirium consistently?
I love my B/R Zombie deck, but Ishkana is so tough. Kalitas is annoying but a timely lightning ax or ULD and you're good. I hate to say but without GY hate to consistently deny delirium, I don't see Aether Revolt having a card that can swing the meta. It sux that I am calling for GY hate because it also hoses Zombies. Maybe a dedicated anti delirium card like '1 mana artifact "All cards in GY count only as 1 type of your choice"' .
I could definitely see Amankhet having a Tormod's Crypt Reprint(only with an egyptian theme).
I imagine with Aether Revolt, red gets a really good artifact kill spell to go along with white and green(remember smash to smithereens...think of the liability copter is then).
What I'm more concerned with now with the combo decks being hated out by U/W Flash, G/B Delirium doesn't seem to have any bad matchups. Ishkana is just so good. Kalitas is annoying against Zombies but Ishkana is just impossible to beat.
I'm puzzled in a format where lightning bolt is abundant, that low toughness/high power creatures could survive. Elves do it by being able to use quick mana to spit out a bunch of them then pump with lords and ezuri. Merfolk do it thru 8x of the cheapest lords in magic(though Thalia's Lieut is pretty good for humans) and aethervial.
If I were to answer this question, I would say the combination of being able to play many spells T1, quick mana from mox opal and springleaf drum, combined with arcbound ravager and etched champion make the deck very fast and resilient to spot removal.
Is that about it?
I mean here is a deck that hasn't added any new cards maindeck(with the exception of springleaf) in what, over 5 years and is always a tier 1 deck. If they printed any creatures good enough for modern affinity, it's likely to get ban-nerfed because their creatures are already so good. But again, lightning bolt and very efficient artifact hate just baffles me that it doesn't make the deck worse than it is.
In disclosure, I ask the question because I am just starting to play it because it appeals to me on a couple different levels. I love tribal decks. I love creature decks(even non green based mid range creature decks). But I also like interactive decks. Yes Affinity can goldfish but whipflare and galvanic blast satisfy that interaction itch. Point being I can see myself playing the deck for a long time so I am soaking up as much info as possible. Thanks
Once red get's it's trade mark smash to smithereens lever artifact killer (likely in aether revolt), copter will be a good but very manageable card.
I can tell you though, playing b/r zombies, that copter has prolly died before it ever got to attack about as much as it got to attack. Now my deck doesn't need to play copter on T2 like r/w vehicles does so it could be that I am giving people more time to deal with it but still.
In your opinion(keyword is opinion), do you consider a deck like Jund, with generally 40-60% matchups across the field to be the better/higher tier deck overall...
or
A deck like Affinity, with some great matchups and some horrible ones and a few in the middle.
IOW, do you feel a deck is better if it can get basically free wins more often but has some matchups that are really tough(free losses), or a deck that has a decent chance in every match but almost no free wins.
I used Affinity as the second type deck but you could substitute which ever deck you feel fits that paradigm.
The poll question, all things being otherwise equal, which deck would you consider better.
The question does not include variance like if a particular deck is hot right now and your deck either has a great or horrible matchup against it. It's more of a philisophical question than a "What deck should I play this particular weekend".
Suppose Amalgam would be broken if it said the end of the next end step instead of the beginning.