I try to find the perfect place to be with my list, and somehow it feels like I keep on dialing things back to what Grixis was in the past. I think I want the 2nd Kalitas in the 75 in any bigger tournament where I'm anticipating burn and zoo - right now one is ok.
I have the same idea however Grixis in general is always a fluctuating decklist based on the meta at your store vs the meta at large events. I currently have a very similar main deck such as the older lists and feel like ancestral visions isn't needed in the mainboard as well. It may be served better in the side but once again everyone's decklist is going to be suited for their local meta. To me having access to a sweeper just acts as an insurance policy against random decks you may encounter whether it's anger of the gods or damnation.
I've tried sin prodder but it seemed lackluster. It dies to pretty much all removal but maybe a sideboard option for decks with little to no removal for extra card value.
I played Jeskai Nahiri deck and crushed it 5-0. One thing that seemed to stand out that is on no ones radar is Shadow of doubt. Sure it's not the best card in a lot of matchups and at worst a cantrip but the matches to me seem like whoever was more interactive/proactive seemed to win the game. After a couple games he just assumed I had it and couldn't ultimate since he was already somewhat hellbent. This may sound too cute,cheesy, or at worst a weird idea but Patrick Chaplin ran the card awhile back ago in his first couple lists.
I'm playing this deck for a while and no doubt it's very strong, but I feel GW tokens is a very bad matchup. I'm not sure about how good Radiant Flames is, as sometimes they can go over it very fast, making it a poor topdeck. The eot Secury the Wastes plus Westvale Abbey flip is very hard to handle also. My only answers are a single Silumgar's Command and two copies of Dragonlord Silumgar (not so helpful if I'm at 9 or less life).
How could we make this match better for us?
For you, if you feel the need put in languish over radiant flames. However it will also kill most of your own creatures. Or even add another copy of radiant flames to the main deck. Virulent plague from the board helps and if that still isn't enough put a kozileks return in the sideboard.
Hard to sideboard when we don't know the decklist lol. It's hard to sideboard in general as you have to sideboard based on the cards you see.
Control: duress, transgress, possibly dark petition, silumgars command
Aggro: Radiant Flames
Midrange: infinite obliteration, transgress the mind, dark petition, silumgars command
Has anyone tried different mana bases between Oliver Tiu and Shaheen Soorani? If so which have you liked so far in testing? I have opted for Shaheen's list reducing the pain from Shivan Reef but also increasing the chance for lands to enter tapped if not drawn correctly. His list runs a few more basics and a dark petition package which I'm not sold on yet but would love to know what everyone is thinking.
Sooo its black red control with blue splashed for the op jace man. Ok seems interesting.
Pretty much, maybe this primer and the B/R control should be combined and make it B/R/x since it swaps out hangarbacks for Jace and possibly Dragonlord Silumgar.
The problem I see though is that languish is a big thing in the format. Sure you get an occasional bolt to someone but I'm still not sure if the package is worth it after testing. Yes it has bigger flyers than P&K but they play either a one or two of so its hard to compare it to that.
Starcitygames did a vs video today on Grixis Control vs. GW Tokens. Majors won 3-2 in the matches providing nice top decks and some help on Majors part for flooding in game 5. The B/R core is strong and the thread of B/R control should be moved to Established standard as well since it is posting some results and had a couple of performance in Starcity States.
Here is my decklist that I played for Gameday last weekend. I ended up changing the sideboard from Friday since I noticed some cards were not being boarded in and that others might seem useful. From this I took out both kozilek's return and a second Ob Nixilis.
Gameday- 8 Players
Match 1: 2-1 Against Monocle Eldrazi
Game 1: I lost on a mulligan and didn't draw the enough removal to deal with a ThoughtKnot Seer and then he placed a Whirler Rogue and I died not being able to black. I believe if I had another turn or 2 I could have stabilized. LOST
Game 2: He mulled and in short order he couldn't handle a kolaghan command on his hedron crawler followed by GDD and Chandra. He stumbled on land this and the next game.
Game 3: He could not answer any of my threats and the game was quickly over after Chandra came down and he had no board state.
Overall this matchup seemed easy. Boarded in Dark Petition, Infinite Obliteration, and a languish and took out Ob Nixilis and 2 Ultimate Price.
Match 2: 2-1 Against G/B Seasons Past
Game 1: I got steamrolled by the loop of Dark Petition into Seasons Past and conceded. This matchup seems difficult after testing with one of my other friends who plays the deck. LOST.
Game 2: I drew enough hand disruption and won the game off of Chandra and a couple awakened lands from Ruinous path.
Game 3: We both stumble on 2 lands but I drew the third and that led into Read the Bones to find more lands. He started making his land drops and misplayed a couple of times that ensured me the win.
Match 3: 2-1 Against Jeskai Midrange
Game1: This game goes long and after exchanging resources, Ob Nixilis and Chandra were too much to overcome. Kalitas was super important here. After he managed the first one from a Dec. in Stone, I landed a second one which he couldn't handle.
Game 2: He drew really well from Nahiri, into Dragonlord Ojutai and into Chandra. This game dragged out but ended quickly as I couldn't deal with too many walkers. LOST.
Game 3: This game went long and on the back of GDD for recursion and disruption. Transgress the mind and duress were key to strip away his Gideon and Nahiri. The board state ended with him having a needle spires, GDD, Dragonlord Ojutai with me having Ob, GDD, a couple thopter tokens and Kalitas just being Exquisite Firecrafted. I drew into Chandra and another GDD at 5 health and Ob was at -3 with fear of uptickinyg into being dead the next turn by a GDD or another Exquisite Firecraft. Chandra came down and upticked that helped win the game and Match. Boarded in 3 duress, Transgress the mind, Dark Petition, Dragonmaster Outcast. Took out 1 Read the bones, 3 Fiery Impulse, 1 Kolaghan's command, 1 Languish.
Second Gameday- 14 Players
Match 1: 2-0 against W/B Midrange
Game 1: This was a grindy game and GDD just out 2-1 the opponent and as he answered my threats I was stripping his away with Transgress the mind. He landed a sorin and downticked to handle Kalitas. Next Turn I awakened Ruinous path and smacked him for 4. We both ended up in top deck but recursion from Kolaghan's Command and GDD won the game.
Game 2: He stumbled on 2 lands and I curved out with Hangarback on 1, Transgressed into pump hangar back, Turn 4 Kalitas, Turn 5 GDD with Transgress, and Chandra for the Win. Boarded in 3 Duress, Transgress, Dark Petition, Dragonmaster Outcast, and Dragonlord Kolaghan. Boarded out 3 Fiery Impulse, 2 Languish, 2 Ultimate Price.
Match 2: 2-0 GB Sacrifice
Game 1: Languish killed his whole board and kalitas into another Languish helped win this game followed by Chandra.
Game 2: He flooded the board and I am at 8 life waiting for him to draw Westvale Abbey. I took a chance and played Kalitas once again with Languish in hand and he drew a land but it wasn't abbey. I languished next turn and ended up with 3 Zombies and 7 Thopters from Hangarback. One was at 4, the other at 4. He had nothing in hand and that was the match.
Boarded in Crumble to Dust, Languish, Transgress the mind,
Boarded out: 2 ultimate price, Read the Bones.
Match 3: 2-1 GB Aristocrats
Game 1: I died to Ormendahl but I learned something new. I swung in for 4 with GDD and then tried to Grasp of Darkness it to kill it. This does not work as damage is slightly different from a Grasp. I lost due to not having an answer for that.
Game 2: It led on some removal spells and a Kalitas which he couldn't answer and that won the game after GDD for more removal and Chandra.
Game 3: It was a close game as he Infinite Obliterated naming Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. I had tons of removal and GDD to help for the value and we both got down to 3 life and I killed a guy with K-command and bought back a GDD to shock him and buy back another Creature. Then Dragonlord Kolaghan came down and closed it out.
Boarded in Crumble to Dust, Languish, Transgress the mind, Dragonlord Kolghan
Boarded out: 2 ultimate price, Read the Bones, Kolaghan's Command
Match 4: 2-0 Jeskai Midrange (same as round 3)
Game 1: GDD and Chandra helped clear the way and won and quick fashion.
Game 2: He got stuck on two lands for 2 turns with 3 Dragonloard Ojutais in hand. I think this was a bad keep on his part and he didn't draw a third land until 2 turns later which came into play tapped. He was too slow and lost in quick fashion. Overall this matchup Ive played tons of times and managed to barely beat him but knocking him out twice in the finals in convincing fashion felt great.
Overall, This deck won both gamedays and didn't feel like it didn't have a chance to win a match. I believe ramp is difficult and luckily I avoided it in the second Gameday. Feel free to ask me questions about the matches or any feedback you may have. Thanks!
bugmage95
: Good stuff dude. Did you have a deck list? Also which matchups felt good and which not so much?
Also, even though I'm running the dragon variant, I can tell you, Chandra is just a beast. If you're able to follow up with anything else to protect her, she's 10x better. There's no board state where she's not good. I have to admit I thought at 6 mana, she would be a tough sell pre release but having played her...I dare say she is close to Elspeth level good.
On a side note, the new Sorin is also very good in the W/B deck. I can tell you, I think W/B is our toughest matchup. I haven't played against Esper Dragons but I have played against other control variants and W/B is by far the worst. Being able to buy back K command or Exq Firecraft with GDD is awesome.
I think it's because I'm playing the more creature heavy dragon build(15 creatures main, remove 3 when going against other creature decks) as opposed to pure R/B Control with less than 10 creatures because they just removal everything you put out there(w/b has the best removal in the game period) then drop sorin or gideon and it's like GG dude. Our only hope is heavy discard package in duress and transgress. This is a matchup where Rakdos's return would be insanely good.
I will post the decklist and matchups for both gamedays later tonight. I think Ramp would be our hardest matchup or the g/b seasons past deck. Gideon might seem like a problem but it can easily be dealt with from transgress the mind, ruinous path, or duress from the sideboard.
I wonder if a single copy of Crumble to Dust is worth it in the sideboard for creature lands (in particular Lumbering Falls) and Drownyard Temple, given the popularity of Goggles decks (both Ramp and Control, though the latter has tailed off a bit).
I have one in my side as a way to deal with Abbey and that as well. It's not huge but something to consider.
I have the same idea however Grixis in general is always a fluctuating decklist based on the meta at your store vs the meta at large events. I currently have a very similar main deck such as the older lists and feel like ancestral visions isn't needed in the mainboard as well. It may be served better in the side but once again everyone's decklist is going to be suited for their local meta. To me having access to a sweeper just acts as an insurance policy against random decks you may encounter whether it's anger of the gods or damnation.
For you, if you feel the need put in languish over radiant flames. However it will also kill most of your own creatures. Or even add another copy of radiant flames to the main deck. Virulent plague from the board helps and if that still isn't enough put a kozileks return in the sideboard.
Hard to sideboard when we don't know the decklist lol. It's hard to sideboard in general as you have to sideboard based on the cards you see.
Control: duress, transgress, possibly dark petition, silumgars command
Aggro: Radiant Flames
Midrange: infinite obliteration, transgress the mind, dark petition, silumgars command
Pretty much, maybe this primer and the B/R control should be combined and make it B/R/x since it swaps out hangarbacks for Jace and possibly Dragonlord Silumgar.
I would probably take out 1 languish and move it to the board for a 26th land such as blighted fen.
3 Hangarback Walker
4 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Planeswalkers (3)
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
Lands (26)
6 Mountain
7 Swamp
2 Blighted Fen
3 Cinder Barrens
4 Foreboding Ruins
4 Smoldering Marsh
3 Fiery Impulse
2 Grasp of Darkness
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Ultimate Price
2 Languish
3 Read the Bones
3 Ruinous Path
2 Transgress the Mind
3 Duress
3 Pitiless Horde
2 Infinite Obliteration
1 Transgress the Mind
1 Dragonlord Kolaghan
1 Dragonmaster Outcast
1 Languish
1 Dark Petition
1 Malevolent Whispers
1 Crumble to Dust
Gameday- 8 Players
Match 1: 2-1 Against Monocle Eldrazi
Game 1: I lost on a mulligan and didn't draw the enough removal to deal with a ThoughtKnot Seer and then he placed a Whirler Rogue and I died not being able to black. I believe if I had another turn or 2 I could have stabilized. LOST
Game 2: He mulled and in short order he couldn't handle a kolaghan command on his hedron crawler followed by GDD and Chandra. He stumbled on land this and the next game.
Game 3: He could not answer any of my threats and the game was quickly over after Chandra came down and he had no board state.
Overall this matchup seemed easy. Boarded in Dark Petition, Infinite Obliteration, and a languish and took out Ob Nixilis and 2 Ultimate Price.
Match 2: 2-1 Against G/B Seasons Past
Game 1: I got steamrolled by the loop of Dark Petition into Seasons Past and conceded. This matchup seems difficult after testing with one of my other friends who plays the deck. LOST.
Game 2: I drew enough hand disruption and won the game off of Chandra and a couple awakened lands from Ruinous path.
Game 3: We both stumble on 2 lands but I drew the third and that led into Read the Bones to find more lands. He started making his land drops and misplayed a couple of times that ensured me the win.
Match 3: 2-1 Against Jeskai Midrange
Game1: This game goes long and after exchanging resources, Ob Nixilis and Chandra were too much to overcome. Kalitas was super important here. After he managed the first one from a Dec. in Stone, I landed a second one which he couldn't handle.
Game 2: He drew really well from Nahiri, into Dragonlord Ojutai and into Chandra. This game dragged out but ended quickly as I couldn't deal with too many walkers. LOST.
Game 3: This game went long and on the back of GDD for recursion and disruption. Transgress the mind and duress were key to strip away his Gideon and Nahiri. The board state ended with him having a needle spires, GDD, Dragonlord Ojutai with me having Ob, GDD, a couple thopter tokens and Kalitas just being Exquisite Firecrafted. I drew into Chandra and another GDD at 5 health and Ob was at -3 with fear of uptickinyg into being dead the next turn by a GDD or another Exquisite Firecraft. Chandra came down and upticked that helped win the game and Match. Boarded in 3 duress, Transgress the mind, Dark Petition, Dragonmaster Outcast. Took out 1 Read the bones, 3 Fiery Impulse, 1 Kolaghan's command, 1 Languish.
Second Gameday- 14 Players
Match 1: 2-0 against W/B Midrange
Game 1: This was a grindy game and GDD just out 2-1 the opponent and as he answered my threats I was stripping his away with Transgress the mind. He landed a sorin and downticked to handle Kalitas. Next Turn I awakened Ruinous path and smacked him for 4. We both ended up in top deck but recursion from Kolaghan's Command and GDD won the game.
Game 2: He stumbled on 2 lands and I curved out with Hangarback on 1, Transgressed into pump hangar back, Turn 4 Kalitas, Turn 5 GDD with Transgress, and Chandra for the Win. Boarded in 3 Duress, Transgress, Dark Petition, Dragonmaster Outcast, and Dragonlord Kolaghan. Boarded out 3 Fiery Impulse, 2 Languish, 2 Ultimate Price.
Match 2: 2-0 GB Sacrifice
Game 1: Languish killed his whole board and kalitas into another Languish helped win this game followed by Chandra.
Game 2: He flooded the board and I am at 8 life waiting for him to draw Westvale Abbey. I took a chance and played Kalitas once again with Languish in hand and he drew a land but it wasn't abbey. I languished next turn and ended up with 3 Zombies and 7 Thopters from Hangarback. One was at 4, the other at 4. He had nothing in hand and that was the match.
Boarded in Crumble to Dust, Languish, Transgress the mind,
Boarded out: 2 ultimate price, Read the Bones.
Match 3: 2-1 GB Aristocrats
Game 1: I died to Ormendahl but I learned something new. I swung in for 4 with GDD and then tried to Grasp of Darkness it to kill it. This does not work as damage is slightly different from a Grasp. I lost due to not having an answer for that.
Game 2: It led on some removal spells and a Kalitas which he couldn't answer and that won the game after GDD for more removal and Chandra.
Game 3: It was a close game as he Infinite Obliterated naming Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. I had tons of removal and GDD to help for the value and we both got down to 3 life and I killed a guy with K-command and bought back a GDD to shock him and buy back another Creature. Then Dragonlord Kolaghan came down and closed it out.
Boarded in Crumble to Dust, Languish, Transgress the mind, Dragonlord Kolghan
Boarded out: 2 ultimate price, Read the Bones, Kolaghan's Command
Match 4: 2-0 Jeskai Midrange (same as round 3)
Game 1: GDD and Chandra helped clear the way and won and quick fashion.
Game 2: He got stuck on two lands for 2 turns with 3 Dragonloard Ojutais in hand. I think this was a bad keep on his part and he didn't draw a third land until 2 turns later which came into play tapped. He was too slow and lost in quick fashion. Overall this matchup Ive played tons of times and managed to barely beat him but knocking him out twice in the finals in convincing fashion felt great.
Overall, This deck won both gamedays and didn't feel like it didn't have a chance to win a match. I believe ramp is difficult and luckily I avoided it in the second Gameday. Feel free to ask me questions about the matches or any feedback you may have. Thanks!
I will post the decklist and matchups for both gamedays later tonight. I think Ramp would be our hardest matchup or the g/b seasons past deck. Gideon might seem like a problem but it can easily be dealt with from transgress the mind, ruinous path, or duress from the sideboard.
I have one in my side as a way to deal with Abbey and that as well. It's not huge but something to consider.