Putrid Leech is neutral? A card that you pay life to get in for extra damage is about as aggro as can possibly be. The flavor text on Putrid Leech was originally going to be "Play me in aggro because I'm an efficient beater and your life total isn't the biggest concern in an aggro deck." They later decided against it.
Thrinax - Sure, I'll give you control.
Bloodbraid Elf - A 3/2 with haste for 4 is a control card? If bloodbraid was a 1/4 with Vigilance, sure...but a 3/2 with haste? Really? Early drops in Control are cards that can block or that help accelerate your game plan of stalling until you drop a finisher. A 3/2 is a terrible blocker. Compare to actual control decks and cards like Wall of Reverence or Wall of Denial...
Broodmate - Sure, control.
Garruk - Overrun is not a control ability. Garruk can be run in either control or aggro, but historically he's been a top of the curve monster in aggro decks.
Blightning - Mind Rot that deals damage? OK for control, but great in aggro. In a control deck, Mind Rot is nearly the same as Blightning, because the damage is generally not relevant. The only reason Blightning is played is because of the aggro capabilities of 3 damage to the face in addition to the 2 cards.
The moral of the story? Jund is a midrange deck.
Let's look at another deck evaluation, shall we?
I think Boros is probably a control deck. Ranger of Eos is card advantage. Elspeth can generate chump blockers, great for control! And lets not forget the amazing blocking capabilities of Kor Skyfisher. Only 2 power? Good thing he makes up for it with 3 toughness. Perfect for blocking and stalling until your control cards like Ranger and Elspeth can shore up the late game! Earthquake? That's a control card for sweeping the board. Path? Cheap and efficient removal has always been a staple in control. Burst Lightning? Great control card for taking care of pesky creatures early game and then coming through for the bigger creatures late game. Geopede? First strike shuts down those weenie rushes, especially if you can crack a fetch on D.
Boros is one of the better control decks in the format right now. The card advantage is insane, with Ranger shenanigans and Elspeth being a problem to deal with for a lot of decks. Pair that up with top notch removal, and you'll definitely out-tempo and out-control your opponent all the way to the top tables!
That would turn me into a midrange build competing directly with Jund. And I don't think i can win that card advantage war.
I think you can. Admittedly, I have limited testing against Jund, but Conqueror's pledge with an honor of the pure on board is worth at least 3 cards or 1 pulse. Emeria Angel + fetchlands is worth 2-3 cards. I max out on both Emeria Angel and Pledge because they are the main source of advantage in the deck and what separates it from running something that looks like a worse Boros deck. Running more land than 22 is essential, though. You'll struggle to cast pledge running 22.
If a deck is dealt with as thought it were Control, deals with permanents as though it were Control, but doesn't expend resources needlessly defending its creatures, it's not control? Call it "Rock" or "midrange" all you like, I'm simply stating that threating a Jund matchup as anything other than control is foolish.
You treat Jund as Control if you're playing a faster aggro deck like Boros. You treat Jund as aggro if you're playing an actual control deck like Grixis. It makes sense that a midrange deck would fall in between the two spectrums.
A control on control matchup (Grixis vs. UW for example) plays out completely differently than Grixis v. Jund or UW vs. Jund. In the control on control matchup, it's all about hitting your land drops, countering your opponent's relevant cards while trying to get your relevant cards to resolve, and frequently very little other than "land, go" actually happens before like turn 6.
Control v. Jund is completely different. The control player is playing out their hand trying to keep Jund from beating in their face long enough to get off a big finisher like Sphinx or Cruel to stabilize with and start to take over the game. In other words, it looks a lot like the Control v. aggro matchup.
Actually, I've believed Jund to be a control deck since prior to Kibler's comments, I'm simply verifying my statements by pointing out that the man regarded as one of, if not the, best MTG players in the world, agrees with my sentiments. Of course if you consider yourself a better player than Brian Kibler...
This is pretty irrelevant. Being a good player doesn't mean you're always right, especially about stuff that has no relevance to the actual playing of the game, such as the classification of a deck into a genre...
Jund is Midrange. It's control compared to a lot of other decks in the standard environment, but if you compare a true control deck like Grixis or UWx to Jund, you'll see enormous differences. Just because Jund packs removal and has cards that produce card advantage doesn't mean it's control. It looks pretty much like any other midrange deck. G/R mana ramp was a popular midrange deck when Lorwyn first came out, and it ran harmonize for card advantage, had skred (sometimes) and incinerate for removal, and ran big finishers like Hellkite or Cloudthresher or difficult to deal with threats like Goyf and Treetop Village and Siege-Gang Commander. Nobody classified it as control, and it had all of the same aspects to it that you're using to classify Jund as control. Card advantage or removal aren't novel ideas that can only be utilized by control. Dark Confidant is a great example of a card that produced great card advantage and yet only fit in decks with a low curve (not control).
I do agree with you about the exaggeration of "the death of control." Grixis, for example, has a decent matchup against Jund and doesn't suck against the rest of the field either. Same with UWx for the most part.
I think the answer is run both, because they're both fantastic, and they provide the kind of virtual card advantage that makes running a WW deck effective in the first place.
With only 22 lands, though, Angel seems much better because it's much more likely that you can cast her at a relevant time.
Ponder is more card selection than card draw. It doesn't give you any extra cards, it just gives you the best card your next 3 or a random shuffle can provide.
Actually I'll back Silence on his post. When some one posts some brain numbing crap like "lololololololollololololololol" in their post and the rest of the post is full of **** then I think it is absolutely warrented... in fact I was hoping Elysium has some input on that numbnut's post. And if for some reason me and/or Silence get infracted for telling that ignoramous off then so be it, at least I will feel like it's a well deserved infraction with no hard feelings attached to it.
Whatever. This is the crap that keeps me from actually posting much here anymore. I am absolutely tired of the retarded immature posters on this site, I can not believe how far this site has fallen. Inexcusable.
I was just looking for an excuse to quote Billy Madison :). The situation was too identical. I don't actually disagree with what he said, he just expressed it in a way far beyond what "needed" to be said.
I do agree that the forums kind of suck. I used to post here all the time and now...not so much because there is such little value to be gained sifting through post after post of chaff in some of the competitive threads. I'm all for changes to be made to try to improve the level of competitive discussion here.
I see deck lists all the time with card choices that are probably good at FNMs or small local gigs, but aren't going to match up with tuned decklists at more competitive tournaments. My biggest suggestion would be for people to only post in the competitive threads if they have intention of playing the deck in competitive events. If your local meta has 34 mono blue control decks and you want to maindeck Scythe Tiger and Great Sable Stag to combat it, then go for it, but that kind of deck list or post has no place in a competitive forum, because mono blue control isn't the type of deck you're going to find in a competitive event.
I would love to see the competitive forums dedicated to discussing the archetype or deck lists for the purpose of play at competitive events. This means that your metagame is the kind of metagame you expect to see at those tournaments, and you are tuning the list to best handle that kind of competition.
Lastly, I agree with Drakantus. Too many of the so called "good" players dismiss cards and ideas without putting any thought into them. If someone can present a card choice, rationally defend it, and suggest positive testing results with it, the least you can do is give it a trial or at the very least consider it's potential. Blind dismissing or flaming of alternative suggestions to the "accepted" cards for an archetype stifles discussion and innovation and can prevent improvement for a deck. Not all suggestions lead to positive results, but shutting down any new discussion lines with "that card sucks, you suck for even considering it" doesn't even provide the opportunity to lead to positive results.
Does Jace Beleren somehow not count as card draw? I would say control has some pretty solid recurring card draw right there.
Jace Beleren is "Gain 2 or 3 life. Draw a card." in today's standard environment.
Other than the restrictive Esper Charm, Divination is arguably the best draw spell in standard right now, and a functional reprint of Counsel of the Soratami is nothing to get excited over.
I used to do 4 person drafts once or twice a week when I had a good core of people to play with. They are a lot of fun. I kind of like them better than 8 person drafts because they're generally more cutthroat and there are a lot of interesting decisions to make and a lot of potential for planning and strategy when you see cards come back around the table so quickly.
Essence scatter is fantastic. It handles a lot of creatures that can otherwise create serious problems for control decks (Malakir Bloodwitch, Broodmate, Thrinax, Siege-Gang Commander, Gatekeeper of Malakir, Sphinx of Jwar Isle, Sphinx of Lost Truths, Emeria Angel, etc.). Yes, it may be dead against some decks, but so is Path to Exile, or Day of Judgment, or Terminate against those very same decks...and yet nobody says "don't run path because it's dead against creatureless decks!" so that is basically a non-argument.
I'd definitely maindeck essence scatter and flashfreeze before I moved to negate. How many cards are there in standard right now that pose a serious problem to a control deck that can't be handled by Essence Scatter or Flashfreeze but yet can be handled by Negate? Not enough to warrant maindecking it over the above I wager.
Sorin is better than Sphinx of Jwar isle against a lot of decks because he nets you life and performs the same general function anyway. Against Boros, for example, when you play Sphinx of Jwar Isle, he typically sits there as an expensive wall for a while until you can stabilize enough to start actually swinging with him. Sorin performs the same function, but each turn he picks off a guy, gains loyalty, and nets you life, which is stronger. Most decks won't be able to kill you by simply ignoring Sorin, so he'll generally end up netting you 10+ effective life by the time they've swung through him. Against Jund, Sphinx is better because they have pulse for Sorin, can't target the Sphinx, and most of their guys are out of Sorin kill range anyway, but Sorin really shines against a lot of other decks.
SGC is fantastic. I'm running him main right now, because I side him in roughly 90% of the time. He is an absolute beating against almost every deck.
Speaking of which, hate to bring up an old subject but I would like to bring up my old case against SoLT. He always dies... Do you ever get to swing or block with him really? Even for people that say you can play him turn 5 and use him to ditch useless cards for 3 new ones, in this case mind spring would have just drew you 3 cards and no need to discard...
I've made that same argument before, and I tend to agree with it for the most part. I ran 1 copy of Sphinx of Lost Truths to vary it up and basically to test it out because people who are good players and very familiar with Cruel Control suggested I run it. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't amazing either. I've cut it from the build I'm running currently, so...
I only kicked it once. Most of the time I just played it straight on turn 5 to hope to dig into Cruel. It's good for digging into Cruel, but I do like Mind Spring better for that purpose in most situations because it provides you with actual card advantage, and doesn't turn on and eat otherwise dead cards in your opponent's hand. The advantage of Sphinx in that situation is potential tempo gain by eating removal (potential, because a lot of removal is cheap enough to where it isn't actually tempo gain...) and possible ramp into Cruel if your opponent decides to nail it with a path.
And, you're lying. Considering the fact that the only states that had a 4-color Ziggurat/Jund deck were CT and NY, and both of those people won.
Unless, of course, that means you went to CT, because, my friend who made the deck and won in NY went 6-0-2 with it.
Really? Are you really trying to suggest that I fabricated my match results and was creative enough to put down 4 color Ziggurat Aggro for the hell of it? Funny stuff man.
Some guy in VA was playing it. He went 5-3, because we were both 5-2 going into the last round and I won. Do you honestly think ithat a 4 color Ziggurat deck with Sedraxis Specter could only possibly be played in 2 states?
His list ran Specter, Bolt, Blightning, Leech, Terminate, and Pulse. I didn't see anything else, but I'm sure he ran bloodbraid as well.
Your friend may have built a 4 color list and won his states with it, but that doesn't mean that nobody else in the continental U.S. could have possibly built a similar list.
Putrid Leech is neutral? A card that you pay life to get in for extra damage is about as aggro as can possibly be. The flavor text on Putrid Leech was originally going to be "Play me in aggro because I'm an efficient beater and your life total isn't the biggest concern in an aggro deck." They later decided against it.
Thrinax - Sure, I'll give you control.
Bloodbraid Elf - A 3/2 with haste for 4 is a control card? If bloodbraid was a 1/4 with Vigilance, sure...but a 3/2 with haste? Really? Early drops in Control are cards that can block or that help accelerate your game plan of stalling until you drop a finisher. A 3/2 is a terrible blocker. Compare to actual control decks and cards like Wall of Reverence or Wall of Denial...
Broodmate - Sure, control.
Garruk - Overrun is not a control ability. Garruk can be run in either control or aggro, but historically he's been a top of the curve monster in aggro decks.
Blightning - Mind Rot that deals damage? OK for control, but great in aggro. In a control deck, Mind Rot is nearly the same as Blightning, because the damage is generally not relevant. The only reason Blightning is played is because of the aggro capabilities of 3 damage to the face in addition to the 2 cards.
The moral of the story? Jund is a midrange deck.
Let's look at another deck evaluation, shall we?
I think Boros is probably a control deck. Ranger of Eos is card advantage. Elspeth can generate chump blockers, great for control! And lets not forget the amazing blocking capabilities of Kor Skyfisher. Only 2 power? Good thing he makes up for it with 3 toughness. Perfect for blocking and stalling until your control cards like Ranger and Elspeth can shore up the late game! Earthquake? That's a control card for sweeping the board. Path? Cheap and efficient removal has always been a staple in control. Burst Lightning? Great control card for taking care of pesky creatures early game and then coming through for the bigger creatures late game. Geopede? First strike shuts down those weenie rushes, especially if you can crack a fetch on D.
Boros is one of the better control decks in the format right now. The card advantage is insane, with Ranger shenanigans and Elspeth being a problem to deal with for a lot of decks. Pair that up with top notch removal, and you'll definitely out-tempo and out-control your opponent all the way to the top tables!
I think you can. Admittedly, I have limited testing against Jund, but Conqueror's pledge with an honor of the pure on board is worth at least 3 cards or 1 pulse. Emeria Angel + fetchlands is worth 2-3 cards. I max out on both Emeria Angel and Pledge because they are the main source of advantage in the deck and what separates it from running something that looks like a worse Boros deck. Running more land than 22 is essential, though. You'll struggle to cast pledge running 22.
You treat Jund as Control if you're playing a faster aggro deck like Boros. You treat Jund as aggro if you're playing an actual control deck like Grixis. It makes sense that a midrange deck would fall in between the two spectrums.
A control on control matchup (Grixis vs. UW for example) plays out completely differently than Grixis v. Jund or UW vs. Jund. In the control on control matchup, it's all about hitting your land drops, countering your opponent's relevant cards while trying to get your relevant cards to resolve, and frequently very little other than "land, go" actually happens before like turn 6.
Control v. Jund is completely different. The control player is playing out their hand trying to keep Jund from beating in their face long enough to get off a big finisher like Sphinx or Cruel to stabilize with and start to take over the game. In other words, it looks a lot like the Control v. aggro matchup.
This is pretty irrelevant. Being a good player doesn't mean you're always right, especially about stuff that has no relevance to the actual playing of the game, such as the classification of a deck into a genre...
Jund is Midrange. It's control compared to a lot of other decks in the standard environment, but if you compare a true control deck like Grixis or UWx to Jund, you'll see enormous differences. Just because Jund packs removal and has cards that produce card advantage doesn't mean it's control. It looks pretty much like any other midrange deck. G/R mana ramp was a popular midrange deck when Lorwyn first came out, and it ran harmonize for card advantage, had skred (sometimes) and incinerate for removal, and ran big finishers like Hellkite or Cloudthresher or difficult to deal with threats like Goyf and Treetop Village and Siege-Gang Commander. Nobody classified it as control, and it had all of the same aspects to it that you're using to classify Jund as control. Card advantage or removal aren't novel ideas that can only be utilized by control. Dark Confidant is a great example of a card that produced great card advantage and yet only fit in decks with a low curve (not control).
I do agree with you about the exaggeration of "the death of control." Grixis, for example, has a decent matchup against Jund and doesn't suck against the rest of the field either. Same with UWx for the most part.
With only 22 lands, though, Angel seems much better because it's much more likely that you can cast her at a relevant time.
Ponder is more card selection than card draw. It doesn't give you any extra cards, it just gives you the best card your next 3 or a random shuffle can provide.
I was just looking for an excuse to quote Billy Madison :). The situation was too identical. I don't actually disagree with what he said, he just expressed it in a way far beyond what "needed" to be said.
I do agree that the forums kind of suck. I used to post here all the time and now...not so much because there is such little value to be gained sifting through post after post of chaff in some of the competitive threads. I'm all for changes to be made to try to improve the level of competitive discussion here.
I see deck lists all the time with card choices that are probably good at FNMs or small local gigs, but aren't going to match up with tuned decklists at more competitive tournaments. My biggest suggestion would be for people to only post in the competitive threads if they have intention of playing the deck in competitive events. If your local meta has 34 mono blue control decks and you want to maindeck Scythe Tiger and Great Sable Stag to combat it, then go for it, but that kind of deck list or post has no place in a competitive forum, because mono blue control isn't the type of deck you're going to find in a competitive event.
I would love to see the competitive forums dedicated to discussing the archetype or deck lists for the purpose of play at competitive events. This means that your metagame is the kind of metagame you expect to see at those tournaments, and you are tuning the list to best handle that kind of competition.
Lastly, I agree with Drakantus. Too many of the so called "good" players dismiss cards and ideas without putting any thought into them. If someone can present a card choice, rationally defend it, and suggest positive testing results with it, the least you can do is give it a trial or at the very least consider it's potential. Blind dismissing or flaming of alternative suggestions to the "accepted" cards for an archetype stifles discussion and innovation and can prevent improvement for a deck. Not all suggestions lead to positive results, but shutting down any new discussion lines with "that card sucks, you suck for even considering it" doesn't even provide the opportunity to lead to positive results.
Jace Beleren is "Gain 2 or 3 life. Draw a card." in today's standard environment.
Other than the restrictive Esper Charm, Divination is arguably the best draw spell in standard right now, and a functional reprint of Counsel of the Soratami is nothing to get excited over.
I'd definitely maindeck essence scatter and flashfreeze before I moved to negate. How many cards are there in standard right now that pose a serious problem to a control deck that can't be handled by Essence Scatter or Flashfreeze but yet can be handled by Negate? Not enough to warrant maindecking it over the above I wager.
SGC is fantastic. I'm running him main right now, because I side him in roughly 90% of the time. He is an absolute beating against almost every deck.
I've made that same argument before, and I tend to agree with it for the most part. I ran 1 copy of Sphinx of Lost Truths to vary it up and basically to test it out because people who are good players and very familiar with Cruel Control suggested I run it. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't amazing either. I've cut it from the build I'm running currently, so...
I only kicked it once. Most of the time I just played it straight on turn 5 to hope to dig into Cruel. It's good for digging into Cruel, but I do like Mind Spring better for that purpose in most situations because it provides you with actual card advantage, and doesn't turn on and eat otherwise dead cards in your opponent's hand. The advantage of Sphinx in that situation is potential tempo gain by eating removal (potential, because a lot of removal is cheap enough to where it isn't actually tempo gain...) and possible ramp into Cruel if your opponent decides to nail it with a path.
Really? Are you really trying to suggest that I fabricated my match results and was creative enough to put down 4 color Ziggurat Aggro for the hell of it? Funny stuff man.
Some guy in VA was playing it. He went 5-3, because we were both 5-2 going into the last round and I won. Do you honestly think ithat a 4 color Ziggurat deck with Sedraxis Specter could only possibly be played in 2 states?
His list ran Specter, Bolt, Blightning, Leech, Terminate, and Pulse. I didn't see anything else, but I'm sure he ran bloodbraid as well.
Your friend may have built a 4 color list and won his states with it, but that doesn't mean that nobody else in the continental U.S. could have possibly built a similar list.