Honestly, I rarely used a Shoal to counter a Bolt or a Path directed to my creatures. Shoal was always meant for Expedition Map, Ancient Stirrings, Cranial Plating, Goblin Guide, Slippery Boogle and the likes of them. So that’s definitely not the problem with Force. The issue is the inability to hit creatures.
Not to be "that guy", but I think we approach this archetype in vastly different ways. I'll agree to disagree here. I use my shoals to protect my threats used to kill the opponent or speedbump them behind my tempo. I just can't get behind the comment "I rarely used a Shoal to counter a Bolt or a Path directed to my creatures" cuz that's literally part of the spells role in the deck.
Most commonly shoaled cards, not close:
- AEther Vial
- Noble Hirarch
- Lightning Bolt
- Fatal Push
- PTE
Hi, I don't post on here very often but observe from the sidelines but question: Why is everyone getting so pumped for 'Force of Negation' for our deck? All our opponent has to do is cast a kill spell on our turn and we can no longer use the exile mode of Force. Our deck needs for us to be able counter at low mana cost (0-1) to keep our creatures alive. Force is basically just a "Cancel" on our turn.
Simply put, it's the thing that gives our deck a chance.
We're a tempo deck in a format without tempo tools. Our defining archetype characteristic is being proactive and reactive AT THE SAME TIME, and cards that support that type of strategy do not currently exist in modern, with the exception of very few cards. Force of Negation makes this happen and fits the criteria. That's why we're pumped.
I played lots of Snap Delver Thing (Mono Blue Delver) with 4 Disrupting Shoal maindeck + 3 Commandeer postboard. If you want to play more than four pitch counterspells, I definitely suggest to implement 4 Shoals or 4 Force of Negation + Commandeer instead of a sum of the first two cards. Cause you can always pitch additional copies of the first two to Commandeer.
Oh yeah, that'll be the the plan for sure. And that's exactly what I'm on right now as far as shoals and commandeers. The current sideboard plan Tron (only place where Commandeer comes in) is -4 Snag -4 Shoal +2 Pierce +1 Unravel +1 Dismember +1 Clique +3 Commandeer. So yeah, nothing much will change except I'll be adopting FoN in place of Denial, which effectively do the same thing in that matchup.
Went 2-2 last night for modern. Smashed Tron and Spirits, while loosing a close game to Phoenix and a not-so-close game to UW. Delivers did a lot of swinging for 1 and had lots of land issues. Gonna chalk it up to variance but will keep looking for more improvements.
Match 1 - Phoenix - 1/2 Loss:
- We basically both played with our knees cut off game one. He mulled to five, I kept a one lander with delver and shoals. Didn't find a second land until turn 2 and he turned over about 1/2 his deck and naturally drew 2 Phoenixes. I got that game eventually. Game 2 he had a nutty T2 double Phoenix start, which is always hard to follow on a Tempo plan. Game three, he shuffled in his ENTIRE sideboard by accident and beat me off of cards he never meant to side in. Karanos + Jace midrange strat seems surprisingly effective against me even though he never meant to side them in ahha.
Match 2 - Tron - 2/1 Win:
- This basically ended how I drew it up. Lose game one. Side in Commandeers. Win effortlessly games 2 and 3 by stealing Karns and Ugin's. GGWP OP. Why does this deck exist?
Match 3 - Spirits - 2/0 Win:
Had a nutty T1 with fetch, double bauble, delver. I ensure it flips by only cracking a single bauble, finding a spell on top of my deck, and then stacking triggers like Delver > Bauble. Flip delver, hold priority on the bauble draw trigger, crack the second bauble to check the top. Didn't like the card, so I Thoughtscoured it away. Drew a better card after. Played a fetch and a Mandrills T2 and beat for 3. He effectively lost by T2. Game two he hinged on Thalia to take the game but I shoaled it and he just died.
Match 4 - UW Control - 1/2 Loss:
New Teferi resolved on T3 and I just couldn't deal with it after it's on the table. Chalk that one up on the "MUST COUNTER OR DIE" list, boys. We can't beat it. Game 2 I smashed him with 3 delvers and enough countermagic to make blue mages squeal, game ended pretty quickly. Game 3 was weird, but he ended landing a very timely Settle the Wreckage with my hand full of shoals and simic charms. Womp Womp. He took over the game after that.
Pretty solid stuff. I can honestly say that the deck is in a pretty good place right now. I had land issues and Delver flipping issues all night, which really comes down to a bit of deck construction and luck. I've had lots of success before, so I'm chalking tonight up to variance in those departments.
Assessing current cards for new ones: Mandrills carried me through some aggro matches, but suffered against control; where Mongoose would've lacked in aggro matches but won me the game against control. I can actually say that Force of Negation is just straight better than Stubborn Denial tho, it just allows us to function on less and do exactly what we're designed to do. Can't wait for that card. Simic Charm and Remand were 50/50 similar to Mongoose and Mandrills.
Does anyone think there's merit to having Remand over Simic Charm in this list particularly? The bounce mode on the Charm is easily my "most used" mode, but I feel like with the introduction of the new FoN, I can keep up with removal enough to answer it reliably. Returning Creatures with remand will give me some serious "time walk" abilities against decks and will likely improve bad matchups.
Okay, so there's a few contradictions happening in this thread right now regarding Mongoose and Hexdrinker.
What if a 3/3 Shroud isn't good enough by turn 3?
How is Hexdrinker exempt from this? It's strictly worse than mongoose until you put four mana into it. The shroud is better than the extra power every day of the week even if it's a 1/1 vs a 2/1.
Seems like the reaction when the Hexdrinker doesn't get to its second stage is basically "oh well, we tried". It seems to be that there's a general consensus that you have a more reliable way of dumping mana into something rather than filling the graveyard with proactive spells. What? In what world is this true?
Is the general consensus that removal is less present than grave hate? If so... that's just wrong.
There's really like no merit to Hexdrinker guys, C'mon. We got mongoose.
In my mind, you gotta play Bauble with Mongoose. It just makes sense. I will admit tho, It’s a very difficult card to play with if you’re not used to it.
Yes you can cut lands. I’m on 16 and functioning fine. But that’s with Baubles, I wouldn’t do that without it. 17 is a safer number and probably a minimum if you’re planning to run Snapcaster.
Having Mongoose instead of Mandrills is huge. Another turn 1 play. No counter synergies with Goyf. SHROUD. That ability is busted as can be. Dismember, Path, and Assassins Trophy are literally everywhere in the format.
Time will certainly tell if I'm wrong.. But I think mongoose gets a TON worse not having the powerful tempo cards like wasteland, stifle and actual force that legacy has access to. I think it will just get bricked and die in combat personally, I remain on the train of thought that all we need is a damn good instant non conditional removal spell.
I think the biggest point here is wasteland. Card does insane things for the Legacy format. Similarly with daze.
Very true, but I'd really advocate Sleight of Hand over Opt. Having 8 sorceries for Goyf is important, and digging as much as possible is better than the instant speed on Opt.
I do think Mandrills is still better than Mangoose, though. But the plan Baubles + Scours as enablers, eight Forces, that's what I definitely like.
I don't know if jamming some Stubs would be better. Maybe it is, but who knows.
This is the question we should be assessing. Stubborn Denial vs FoN. That kinda determines if we play Monkeys or Mongoose's, since one enables the other.
I agree that Bauble is going to be good if Goose is playable. I think it's a big if at this point, and really depends on what we get for removal in this set.
I think running 4 Shoal 4 Force is too much, personally.
I don't think so. It's gonna allow us to play our proactive game while also being reactive. Cutting a substantial amount of lands gives us the gas to keep up with their curve and whatnot. So freakin stoked. FoN also on 3cmc is sweeeeet for shoaling 3mana creatures that come up here or there.
As long as you don't flood, and you shouldn't with the amount of card selection given here, you can keep up and pitch cards as needed.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/articles/49777-the-end-of-an-era
Not to be "that guy", but I think we approach this archetype in vastly different ways. I'll agree to disagree here. I use my shoals to protect my threats used to kill the opponent or speedbump them behind my tempo. I just can't get behind the comment "I rarely used a Shoal to counter a Bolt or a Path directed to my creatures" cuz that's literally part of the spells role in the deck.
Most commonly shoaled cards, not close:
- AEther Vial
- Noble Hirarch
- Lightning Bolt
- Fatal Push
- PTE
Simply put, it's the thing that gives our deck a chance.
We're a tempo deck in a format without tempo tools. Our defining archetype characteristic is being proactive and reactive AT THE SAME TIME, and cards that support that type of strategy do not currently exist in modern, with the exception of very few cards. Force of Negation makes this happen and fits the criteria. That's why we're pumped.
Oh yeah, that'll be the the plan for sure. And that's exactly what I'm on right now as far as shoals and commandeers. The current sideboard plan Tron (only place where Commandeer comes in) is -4 Snag -4 Shoal +2 Pierce +1 Unravel +1 Dismember +1 Clique +3 Commandeer. So yeah, nothing much will change except I'll be adopting FoN in place of Denial, which effectively do the same thing in that matchup.
Went 2-2 last night for modern. Smashed Tron and Spirits, while loosing a close game to Phoenix and a not-so-close game to UW. Delivers did a lot of swinging for 1 and had lots of land issues. Gonna chalk it up to variance but will keep looking for more improvements.
Match 1 - Phoenix - 1/2 Loss:
- We basically both played with our knees cut off game one. He mulled to five, I kept a one lander with delver and shoals. Didn't find a second land until turn 2 and he turned over about 1/2 his deck and naturally drew 2 Phoenixes. I got that game eventually. Game 2 he had a nutty T2 double Phoenix start, which is always hard to follow on a Tempo plan. Game three, he shuffled in his ENTIRE sideboard by accident and beat me off of cards he never meant to side in. Karanos + Jace midrange strat seems surprisingly effective against me even though he never meant to side them in ahha.
Match 2 - Tron - 2/1 Win:
- This basically ended how I drew it up. Lose game one. Side in Commandeers. Win effortlessly games 2 and 3 by stealing Karns and Ugin's. GGWP OP. Why does this deck exist?
Match 3 - Spirits - 2/0 Win:
Had a nutty T1 with fetch, double bauble, delver. I ensure it flips by only cracking a single bauble, finding a spell on top of my deck, and then stacking triggers like Delver > Bauble. Flip delver, hold priority on the bauble draw trigger, crack the second bauble to check the top. Didn't like the card, so I Thoughtscoured it away. Drew a better card after. Played a fetch and a Mandrills T2 and beat for 3. He effectively lost by T2. Game two he hinged on Thalia to take the game but I shoaled it and he just died.
Match 4 - UW Control - 1/2 Loss:
New Teferi resolved on T3 and I just couldn't deal with it after it's on the table. Chalk that one up on the "MUST COUNTER OR DIE" list, boys. We can't beat it. Game 2 I smashed him with 3 delvers and enough countermagic to make blue mages squeal, game ended pretty quickly. Game 3 was weird, but he ended landing a very timely Settle the Wreckage with my hand full of shoals and simic charms. Womp Womp. He took over the game after that.
Pretty solid stuff. I can honestly say that the deck is in a pretty good place right now. I had land issues and Delver flipping issues all night, which really comes down to a bit of deck construction and luck. I've had lots of success before, so I'm chalking tonight up to variance in those departments.
Assessing current cards for new ones: Mandrills carried me through some aggro matches, but suffered against control; where Mongoose would've lacked in aggro matches but won me the game against control. I can actually say that Force of Negation is just straight better than Stubborn Denial tho, it just allows us to function on less and do exactly what we're designed to do. Can't wait for that card. Simic Charm and Remand were 50/50 similar to Mongoose and Mandrills.
Decklist for reference... https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1289947#paper
Thoughts?
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1914256#paper
What if a 3/3 Shroud isn't good enough by turn 3?
There's really like no merit to Hexdrinker guys, C'mon. We got mongoose.
Yes you can cut lands. I’m on 16 and functioning fine. But that’s with Baubles, I wouldn’t do that without it. 17 is a safer number and probably a minimum if you’re planning to run Snapcaster.
Having Mongoose instead of Mandrills is huge. Another turn 1 play. No counter synergies with Goyf. SHROUD. That ability is busted as can be. Dismember, Path, and Assassins Trophy are literally everywhere in the format.
I think the biggest point here is wasteland. Card does insane things for the Legacy format. Similarly with daze.
This is the question we should be assessing. Stubborn Denial vs FoN. That kinda determines if we play Monkeys or Mongoose's, since one enables the other.
I don't think so. It's gonna allow us to play our proactive game while also being reactive. Cutting a substantial amount of lands gives us the gas to keep up with their curve and whatnot. So freakin stoked. FoN also on 3cmc is sweeeeet for shoaling 3mana creatures that come up here or there.
As long as you don't flood, and you shouldn't with the amount of card selection given here, you can keep up and pitch cards as needed.
I'd agree. It's leftover from the previous iteration of the deck
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1914256#paper
Prohibit:
Force of Negation:
Icefang Coatl:
Ranbow Fetch: