Wow. I hadn't played a Daily in so long, I had no idea the M11 packs where garbage. I got 3-1, losing to U/R cloudpost game 3 (I had a 4-card mulligan), but I don't even know what to do with the 6 packs. I hate to sell to bots for 2.15 but nobody's buying them, even at 2.50.
And on a side note, I also had no idea Invigorate was so expensive now. I've unloaded my costly Masques cards in prep for the online release (whenever that is), but I can't let go of Invigorate or I'll have nothing to play. As soon as that release date is set, will selling Invigorate be a good idea? How much do these type of cards drop in price when they are no longer just available in the duel decks?
been playing this after many attempts with other variations. This has got to be best list I've played. The deck needs to be simple, turn 1 play a guy and keep bashing and pumping until they are dead. Trample and protection are very important here. Haven't tried out the crop rotation stuff yet. I can see it as a sideboard plan.
You should try Crop Rotation definitely. I like Apostle's Blessing, but I don't see the deck having room to play cards that don't pump your creatures. But besides pumping, it does everything else that Crop Rotation does. I'd suggest adding Tranquil Thicket, maybe even 4 of them. Once you have 3 Forests, any additional land will be dead for you and Thicket can help prevent those mana floods.
...is mutagenic growth really worth it? You could instead maximize the Groundswell count in the deck instead, using a pump spell that usually gives +4/+4 instead of +2/+2. The reduced mana cost is relevant but in most cases where I have difficulty "going off" it's usually because I don't have enough cards to get to 10 poison, not too little mana to use all of my pump. Also, is Rot Wolf really better than Cystbearer? There are a bunch of 2/2s running around Pauper that Cystbearer beats, and he also survives Disfigure. In a deck like this where winning frequently comes down to playing around priority correctly, Cystbearer more often gives you the initiative in beating the opponent in stack wars where you have to play your pump spells at the right moment.
You were right about the Groundswells, I've had issues with getting max value out of them before, but they do give you more explosive draws. The change back to Cystbearer seems right as well, for the exact reasons you mentioned. It's also better against mono-B, which is giving me the most trouble right now.
Glistener Elf speeds up the deck a turn without the self 2-for-1 called Lotus Petal. Also good as a turn 2 play with protection card against Mountain or Swamp. Predator Strike was the worst card and two mana for +3/+3 just isn't good enough. Llanowar Augur has been working real good in testing, providing the Trample lost from Predator Strike and giving some defense against fast beats. Tranquil Thicket just gives you more options to prevent mana floods. Mutagenic Growth is Invigorate 5 and 6 but the small pump prevents me from playing more than 2x. Groundswell is back in the deck because of the increased speed of the deck. Also its back because of the new sideboard philosophy I'm using against combo and control. This deck can outrace or match any other combo deck and Groundswell makes it faster. Turn 3 land kill just won't cut it. 4x Hornet Sting is still a concession to Sparksmith and Flagbearers which totally shut down the deck. And Sandstorm provides protection against the one deck that is consistently as fast as this deck, U/R Storm, which gains more consistency from Gitaxian Probe.
One last note: This version of the deck that uses non-basics and Crop Rotation is better than the mono green version, easily. You gain a small amount of consistency in your land draws but you lose Crop Rotation and all the reach gained from the lands. The lands provide you outs against every scenario except numerous fog effects, which is handled after sideboard.
The goblins matchup isn't about them racing you. It's all about Sparksmith. Basically, you're hoping and praying that you can win before he drops. Then if they do get it on turn 2, maybe hornet sting can give you a few more turns to breakthrough. Of course, this plan is flawed if they have Sledder, but its still better than Sandstorm which does nothing in that matchup.
And yes, I've been trying Llanowar Augur and it is definitely better than Virulent Sliver. I was siding out Virulent in every matchup. But Glistener Elf removes both from the discussion so that doesn't matter to much anymore.
Here's the great thing though. Glistener Elf along with Lotus Petal (if there's still room for Lotus) gives you consistent turn 1 infect creatures. Meaning, less chances of losing simply because you don't draw any infect creatures, and less chances of getting blown out by Sparksmith, Serrated Arrows, Crypt Rats, and other slow answers that worked before due to the previous low threat density problem.
And speaking of matchups, the increased speed of the deck makes the tough Storm matchups much much better. I rarely lost games where I landed a turn 1 infect against Grapeshot or Familiar storm. It forces them to try and go off turn 2 which works sometimes for regular storm but is impossible for familiar storm.
Mono black is still tough, because they will just run more Disfigures, but we have Mutagenic to counter that now. I promise you, every matchup is now better and no other top tier decks have gained as much as the Infect deck.
It compliments Invigorate nicely, but at +2/+2 would you run all 4 or just 2 as Invigs # 5 and 6?
as for the elf: It's been fun Virulent Sliver :), don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Growth definitely has a place in the deck. There's not alot of room tho. Maybe split 2-2 with Predator Strike to test. Trample is still real important tho, people are wising up and chumping everything now.
Unfortunately, Lotus Petal and Invigorate are key to the speed and reliability of the deck. Its a shame that there are expensive commons like those but Lotus Petal is used in all eternal formats and Invigorate will stay high at least until Mercadian Masques is released online. I've been waiting for Daze to drop for the same reason, that card is $10 each!
We have to get the Mods to start an official pauper archetypes section, but there probably aren't enough of us to warrant doing that. The guy that started this thread hasn't updated the first post since January 2010.
You could run a Crop Rotation toolbox instead of some pump - Soaring Seacliff, Sejiri Steppe, Teetering Peaks, etc. That would possibly allow you to interact a little more or squeeze through some damage.
How is Virulent Sliver working out? I can't imagine it being better than Blight Mamba.
Huuumm...I think you are posting on the wrong thread. Those suggestions are a bit suspect (already done, already explained, or not available in pauper)
A little disappointing for mono green pauper infect, but Rot Wolf seems like a nice replacement for current placeholder Cystbearer. The card advantage should easily make up for the vulnerability to Disfigure. The 3 toughness of Cyst is great for surviving chump blocks, but constant chump blocking is exactly what the opponent wanted...until now.
I've updated the list for the first time in a while so I'll post it here. I've realized that Trample is a must-have so I've maxed out on the best pump+trample enablers. Also cut a Sejiri to make room for a Forest. I don't like the sideboard. Thermokarst feels way too slow for Storm, but it works when you can draw it and lands to play it & is also useful against 8post control decks. Gelid Shackles is too hard to play consistently against Goblins, so I'm just gonna max out on the Hornet Sting's and hope and pray until something better comes up.
Oops you're right about Grapeshot. The copies aren't "cast" so only the first spell is forced to target the flagbearer. Still, if you are sideboarding Standard Bearer for the stompy matchup, you can bring it in along with the unicorn against Storm and hope they concede due to not knowing the rules.
Best sideboard options that come to mind are:
-Seismic Shudder Instant speed goblin token kill. Can be Duress'ed, but not likely. Non-instant sweeps lose to Bushwhacker.
-Echoing Decay and Echoing Truth More instant speed goblin sweep.
-Standard Bearer Grapeshot is useless now. Also destroys Stompy (nulls their pump spells)
-Benevolent Unicorn Another grapeshot trump, but only sometimes good against Storm deck. Standard Bearer is better.
Those are your cheap single card solutions. Mulligan until one of these is in your opener or prepare to lose bad. Even with one, you may still lose if their draw gives them the option to go off with empty or grapeshot.
In terms of deck design:
-Discard heavy draws are also useful, but they can fight through discard if you let up. Same is true for land destruction. These resource-reducing tactics often cause them to go for the token kill since they only need 4 spells in addition to Empty the Warrens and bushwhacker to attack for 22.
-Counterspells are good also. Going after card draw or obvious mana screw is best. More effective against bounce storm than regular storm. More effective when their resources are lacking.
-Be faster. This is basically impossible, but Familiar Storm can go off turn 3 and the Mono green infect can win turn 2/3 as well (less consistent however)
-Accelerated LD. Turn 1 elf, turn 2 LD, turn 3 LD is tough for both Storm decks to fight through.
Using these parameters, you can start to see how the other existing tier 1 decks beat Storm. Basically, if your deck can accomplish at least two of the above sideboard cards and/or deck designs, you can compete against Storm.
Yes it restricts deck design in Pauper, but you just have to be creative with whats available. It a shame that so many archetypes have no chance because of Storm though.
I'm one of those casual spike players though. I love playing and winning with a deck that's under the radar. I basically spend all my time trying to come up with new archetypes that can compete with the already established top decks.
You're right though, with every new set the existing archetypes get a boost. It's good to revive those 'dead' decks to see if they can compete again.
Unfortunately, I don't see the Infect deck getting any better than it is. It's still really fast and resilient, only Traditional Storm can compete with its speed, but until the new MBS set is available online, I'm gonna put this one on the shelf.
For everyone that has tried the deck out, don't forget about it! It's only gonna get better, with each of these MBS sets. And if they print a G or B 1/1 infect creature...it's over. The Infect deck would be top tier guaranteed.
And on a side note, I also had no idea Invigorate was so expensive now. I've unloaded my costly Masques cards in prep for the online release (whenever that is), but I can't let go of Invigorate or I'll have nothing to play. As soon as that release date is set, will selling Invigorate be a good idea? How much do these type of cards drop in price when they are no longer just available in the duel decks?
You should try Crop Rotation definitely. I like Apostle's Blessing, but I don't see the deck having room to play cards that don't pump your creatures. But besides pumping, it does everything else that Crop Rotation does. I'd suggest adding Tranquil Thicket, maybe even 4 of them. Once you have 3 Forests, any additional land will be dead for you and Thicket can help prevent those mana floods.
You were right about the Groundswells, I've had issues with getting max value out of them before, but they do give you more explosive draws. The change back to Cystbearer seems right as well, for the exact reasons you mentioned. It's also better against mono-B, which is giving me the most trouble right now.
Additions to decklist:
+4x Glistener Elf
+4x Llanowar Augur
+2x Groundswell
+2x Mutagenic Growth
+2x Tranquil Thicket
Removed from previous list:
-4 Predator Strike
-4 Lotus Petal
Sideboard Changes:
+2x Groundswell
+2x Sandstorm
-4x Thermokarst
Glistener Elf speeds up the deck a turn without the self 2-for-1 called Lotus Petal. Also good as a turn 2 play with protection card against Mountain or Swamp. Predator Strike was the worst card and two mana for +3/+3 just isn't good enough. Llanowar Augur has been working real good in testing, providing the Trample lost from Predator Strike and giving some defense against fast beats. Tranquil Thicket just gives you more options to prevent mana floods. Mutagenic Growth is Invigorate 5 and 6 but the small pump prevents me from playing more than 2x. Groundswell is back in the deck because of the increased speed of the deck. Also its back because of the new sideboard philosophy I'm using against combo and control. This deck can outrace or match any other combo deck and Groundswell makes it faster. Turn 3 land kill just won't cut it. 4x Hornet Sting is still a concession to Sparksmith and Flagbearers which totally shut down the deck. And Sandstorm provides protection against the one deck that is consistently as fast as this deck, U/R Storm, which gains more consistency from Gitaxian Probe.
One last note: This version of the deck that uses non-basics and Crop Rotation is better than the mono green version, easily. You gain a small amount of consistency in your land draws but you lose Crop Rotation and all the reach gained from the lands. The lands provide you outs against every scenario except numerous fog effects, which is handled after sideboard.
And yes, I've been trying Llanowar Augur and it is definitely better than Virulent Sliver. I was siding out Virulent in every matchup. But Glistener Elf removes both from the discussion so that doesn't matter to much anymore.
Here's the great thing though. Glistener Elf along with Lotus Petal (if there's still room for Lotus) gives you consistent turn 1 infect creatures. Meaning, less chances of losing simply because you don't draw any infect creatures, and less chances of getting blown out by Sparksmith, Serrated Arrows, Crypt Rats, and other slow answers that worked before due to the previous low threat density problem.
And speaking of matchups, the increased speed of the deck makes the tough Storm matchups much much better. I rarely lost games where I landed a turn 1 infect against Grapeshot or Familiar storm. It forces them to try and go off turn 2 which works sometimes for regular storm but is impossible for familiar storm.
Mono black is still tough, because they will just run more Disfigures, but we have Mutagenic to counter that now. I promise you, every matchup is now better and no other top tier decks have gained as much as the Infect deck.
Everything in Legacy is degenerate. Auto 4-of in most decks, degenerate or not. Non-degenerate decks will still struggle.
Growth definitely has a place in the deck. There's not alot of room tho. Maybe split 2-2 with Predator Strike to test. Trample is still real important tho, people are wising up and chumping everything now.
Our prayers have been answered. I teared up when I saw this in the NPH spoilers:
Glistener Elf
Creature - Elf Warrior (C)
Infect
1/1
Time to take Infect deck to Classic Pauper Tier 1. Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaahhhh
Huuumm...I think you are posting on the wrong thread. Those suggestions are a bit suspect (already done, already explained, or not available in pauper)
I've updated the list for the first time in a while so I'll post it here. I've realized that Trample is a must-have so I've maxed out on the best pump+trample enablers. Also cut a Sejiri to make room for a Forest. I don't like the sideboard. Thermokarst feels way too slow for Storm, but it works when you can draw it and lands to play it & is also useful against 8post control decks. Gelid Shackles is too hard to play consistently against Goblins, so I'm just gonna max out on the Hornet Sting's and hope and pray until something better comes up.
Current List:
4x Blight Mamba
4x Ichorclaw Myr
4x Virulent Sliver
4x Rot Wolf
Spells
4x Invigorate
4x Vines of Vastwood
4x Crop Rotation
4x Predator's Strike
4x Rancor
2x Bonesplitter
4x Lotus Petal
15x Forest
2x Sejiri Steppe
2x Teetering Peaks
1x Soaring Seacliff
3x Nature's Claim
1x Ancient Grudge
4x Thermokarst
3x Flaring Pain
4x Hornet Sting
-Seismic Shudder Instant speed goblin token kill. Can be Duress'ed, but not likely. Non-instant sweeps lose to Bushwhacker.
-Echoing Decay and Echoing Truth More instant speed goblin sweep.
-Standard Bearer Grapeshot is useless now. Also destroys Stompy (nulls their pump spells)
-Benevolent Unicorn Another grapeshot trump, but only sometimes good against Storm deck. Standard Bearer is better.
Those are your cheap single card solutions. Mulligan until one of these is in your opener or prepare to lose bad. Even with one, you may still lose if their draw gives them the option to go off with empty or grapeshot.
In terms of deck design:
-Discard heavy draws are also useful, but they can fight through discard if you let up. Same is true for land destruction. These resource-reducing tactics often cause them to go for the token kill since they only need 4 spells in addition to Empty the Warrens and bushwhacker to attack for 22.
-Counterspells are good also. Going after card draw or obvious mana screw is best. More effective against bounce storm than regular storm. More effective when their resources are lacking.
-Be faster. This is basically impossible, but Familiar Storm can go off turn 3 and the Mono green infect can win turn 2/3 as well (less consistent however)
-Accelerated LD. Turn 1 elf, turn 2 LD, turn 3 LD is tough for both Storm decks to fight through.
Using these parameters, you can start to see how the other existing tier 1 decks beat Storm. Basically, if your deck can accomplish at least two of the above sideboard cards and/or deck designs, you can compete against Storm.
Yes it restricts deck design in Pauper, but you just have to be creative with whats available. It a shame that so many archetypes have no chance because of Storm though.
You're right though, with every new set the existing archetypes get a boost. It's good to revive those 'dead' decks to see if they can compete again.
Unfortunately, I don't see the Infect deck getting any better than it is. It's still really fast and resilient, only Traditional Storm can compete with its speed, but until the new MBS set is available online, I'm gonna put this one on the shelf.
For everyone that has tried the deck out, don't forget about it! It's only gonna get better, with each of these MBS sets. And if they print a G or B 1/1 infect creature...it's over. The Infect deck would be top tier guaranteed.