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  • posted a message on [[Peasant]] The Peasant Cube Discussion Thread (C/U/)
    London mulligan all the way. Even more so since you just play for fun when you play cube. It's the first mulligan that truly works for a casual format from my pov, all the mulligans before led to frustration occassionally. It's definitely way better than the Vancouver mulligan.
    Posted in: Pauper & Peasant Discussion
  • posted a message on [[Peasant]] The Peasant Cube Discussion Thread (C/U/)
    I'm with Purplemurasaki, the whole reason why cards like Warhammer, Skullclamp, Curses and some other cards are considered op is that you can not deal with them without removing them completely. Loxodon Warhammer is not Armadillo Cloak. Sacrificing your own resources just to delay the inevitable is a losing battle. Sure, they're not unbeatable and sometimes disabling these cards for a turn or two is enough to win, but after that you're bound to lose.
    Posted in: Pauper & Peasant Discussion
  • posted a message on [[Peasant]] The Peasant Cube Discussion Thread (C/U/)
    I never felt that graveyard strategies are oppressive in peasant, if at all the opposite is the case.

    Reanimator is a fragile deck that is hard to draft and the fatties we have are hardly unbeatable. Any half-decent aggro deck will run over your reanimator deck before you even have a chance to attack with your cool turn three 7/7 Plated Crusher more than twice.

    The typcial graveyard value deck isn't better. It's very slow and grindy, the game needs to go on long enough to give you an actual benefit from casting slow cards like Baloth Null or Grizzly Fate.

    Random graveyard value cards like Gryff's Boon, Deep Analysis or Firebolt would become completely unplayable if every second deck could easily remove them from the yard.

    I'm happy when I get cards like Striped Riverwinder or Mother Bear to get more support for graveyard strategies, I certainly won't add cards that make these strategies even less viable than they are.

    For a while I really tried to add enough artifact hate to make a card like Loxodon Warhammer playable in my cube, but ultimately this can't work out. Some colors like blue and especially black don't have any artifact hate at all, other colors, like red, mostly have sideboard only cards. Even if you add all the narrow red cards it won't ever be enough, all you do is clutter your red section with cards that never get played in game 1.

    Of course there is nothing wrong with playing Loxodon Warhammer, but if you believe you can add enough cards to give every player a fair chance to remove it when it gets played you deceive yourself. And the same is true for graveyard strategies. If you really believe that graveyard cards are too op you should remove the cards in question, but adding enough graveyard hate to give every player a fair chance to remove problematic cards just isn't possible.
    Posted in: Pauper & Peasant Discussion
  • posted a message on [[Peasant]] The Peasant Cube Discussion Thread (C/U/)
    Graveyard hate is a big no for me unless it comes as a side effect. Unless I'm mistaken Nezumi Graverobber is the only card in my cube that has such an effect. There are no super broken cards like in powered cubes that win the game on turn 2 or 3 without graveyard hate, so it isn't needed either. A card like Relic of Progenitus is pure sideboard material and it won't see play at all in more than 1 out of 10 games (if at all) unless your cube has a heavy graveyard theme.

    For a while I ran cards like Disenchant and Naturalize, but ultimately hardly anyone ever maindecked them (and rightly so). Even Reclamation Sage and friends aren't the most picked cards, but at least you can maindeck them. I think it's easier to simply not run any op artifacts (or enchantments) like Loxodon Warhammer or Skullclamp than trying to force a critical amount of artifact or enchantment hate into the cube, which will never work out well.

    I still don't mind artifact removal if it is maindeckable, and red got two cool new toys lately with Goblin Cratermaker and Abrade, which are CU/be staples from my pov.
    Posted in: Pauper & Peasant Discussion
  • posted a message on [[Peasant]] The Peasant Cube Discussion Thread (C/U/)

    When a Magic player opens a pack with Kjeldoran Skycaptain and One with Nothing and a bunch of pushed Arcane cards, it's like sprinkling holy water on a vampire.


    Because such a pack screams 'hey, I'm uninteractive and unfun'. If you pick an arcane card you have to mindlessly pick more arcane cards for the rest of the draft as splice onto arcane is one of the most parasitic mechanics ever invented for Magic, can't get more linear and boring than that.

    Oh, wait, apparently it can since if you want to make use of One with Nothing you have to pick exactly the cards the cube designer wanted you to pick (whatever these are...) when he put the card in or else it will be more than completely useless. If you don't draft the whole cube you may even end up with a steaming pile of garbage and can't build a working deck with your cards at all, but who cares.

    Last, but not least you could pick Kjeldoran Skycaptain. In that case you can only hope that the power level of the rest of the cube is just as low, in which case it would be the only decent card in the pack and the only one that allows you to actually pick a card of your own choice in the next pack.

    The last time I played my cube, I Winston drafted with a friend I haven't seen in a while. I drafted a deck with an Arcane Dampen Thought sub-theme. The board was at parity a few turns in, and I played my first spliced Dampen Thought and milled a Bridge From Below into my opponent's graveyard and gave my opponent 4 zombies. I tried to hold on by splicing Candle's Glow a bunch of times but I couldn't.


    Your gameplay example is about as exciting as rolling dice, but it has nothing to do with an intelligent and challenging game of Magic. You randomly mill Bridge from Below into your opponent's yard, a card that is completely impossible to set up in a cube environment, and he is lucky enough that you apparently don't run any creatures, most likely because you play the ultra linear arcane mechanic deck that was shuffled into the cube, and there is no place for creatures in that deck. At which point did you or your opponent actually do something meaningful? Maybe you think it's funny that you helped him win by accident, but...it just happened.

    Cool and surprising synergies you never really thought of happen in regular CU/bes as well, but usually they don't come out of nowhere, instead it's a mixture of skill, drafting the right cards and a bit of luck.

    Fun is purely subjective, but most of the evil Magic players who don't know what is good for the game simply want Magic games where you win by building a good, synergistic deck after picking the right cards for it out of many possible options during the draft and then playing a smart and strategical game of Magic. And not because of some weird, totally random crap that happens with cards that can only ever work as intended in constructed combo decks. That may be fun for the giggles if you are drunk, but it gets old really fast for most people.

    When you talk about the mono black cube it sounds as if you think people have problems with cubes that are different from the typcial run-off-the-mill cube (be it rare, peasant or pauper), which is absolutely not the case. There are millions of fun ways to build a cube as long as the cube is well designed. But simply shuffling a pile of random cards together because they're 'cool' doesn't cut it, at least not for the average Magic player who doesn't know what is good for the game (tm).
    Posted in: Pauper & Peasant Discussion
  • posted a message on [[Peasant]] The Peasant Cube Discussion Thread (C/U/)

    It's also not obvious or inherently true that Exhume only works in blue black reanimator. You only know that because you have experience with it. It seems strange to me that it would be unplayable in other color combinations if reanimator is viable in those colors. That seems like something that's specific to the cube environment.


    We are talking about a typical cube here, one that is at least similar to the average list of forum members or the average lists on cubetutor. In a specific cube environment everything can work, if 50% of the cards in your cube are enchantments you would play Mesa Enchantress without even thinking about it.

    I already mentioned that Exhume is fringe playable in GB graveyard value decks, but neither red nor green have the discard outlets for a full-blown reanimator deck. Red has exactly one great card for that (Faithless Looting), the rest is either mediocre at best and slightly parasitic by itself (like Tormenting Voice and friends) or not a very good outlet to begin with (like Burning-Fist Minotaur or Bloodrage Brawler) or even both.

    For green it's the same, but a green self-mill midrange value deck usually has some good 5-6 cmc creatures that are worth exhuming. I would still take any other reanimation spell here over Exhume and reanimation spells aren't even needed for this kind of deck. But it can end up in such a deck in some rare cases.

    But without nitpicking you can say that Exhume is only playable in UB reanimator in a typical peasant cube. Pretty sure I've never seen it getting used anywhere else either during an actual game, at least not by an experienced player.

    What I like about Exhume and the reason why I run it is that it's actually the best of the few playable reanimation spells there is for a true reanimator deck while it's (more or less, see above) unplayable anywhere else. That's how I like my parasitic cards, Exhume is invaluable if you want to support reanimator and it's just one card that does so much for the archetype without affecting your overall cube design.

    On a sidenote, Thriving Grubs is a decent card. Nothing to write home about, but it's not worse than pretty much any of the other playable red 3/2s. I had it in my cube for a short while and I know that some people with larger cubes still run it.
    Posted in: Pauper & Peasant Discussion
  • posted a message on [[Peasant]] The Peasant Cube Discussion Thread (C/U/)
    Quote from OptBoy »

    By that definition, I think it's not fun at all to build a cube without parasitic cards. Parasitic cards are harder to evaluate, since you'll have to take into consideration what synergies you have and are hoping to pick up later in the draft, more so with cards that are just good regardless. I don't want my drafts turning into 'pick the best cards and win'.

    EDIT: I dislike the term 'parasitic' for these cards. Can we call them 'archetype cards' or 'archetype-specific cards'. Parasitic is a word used to discribe things like the Energy mechanic from Kaladesh, not for individual cards.


    It's a term commonly used in Magic for cards of the type described. It refers to mechanics, and cards that use these mechanics. It doesn't matter anyway how you call it, doesn't it? Does an umbrella become something else if you call it portable roof?

    No one said you can't/shouldn't have parasitic cards in your cube, but the more you add, the more linear and boring the drafting/deck building experience will naturally become. If you add too many parasitic cards it's like shuffling 10 constructed decks together and making a cube out of it. The decks that come out of that may look very smart and will have a lot of strong synergies, but in the end they always look the same and you don't really have a choice what to pick after the first 2 picks.

    Cards that are 'good regardless' actually require more and not less thinking when you draft them than parasitic/archetype cards. If you pick Exhume you will only look for UB reanimator cards afterwards and many packs will only have one card that makes sense. If you pick Incinerate instead you can still go into any direction you want with your deck and you will see a lot of cards that make sense in each pack.

    Apart from that the whole discussion was about whether parasitic cards like Exhume are playable outside of their archetypes, which they are not. That's basically the definition of parasitic, though there are of course varying degrees of parasitic. A card like Lightning Bolt is universally playable, a card like Carnophage only makes sense in a specific, but broad strategy and a card like Exhume only makes sense in a very specific deck.
    Posted in: Pauper & Peasant Discussion
  • posted a message on Is ___________ good in Peasant?
    How do you guys feel about Skywise Teachings and Goblinslide?

    Has anyone tried Flood? That card has been very good in my main cube. It's a lot better than Thassa's Ire.

    What about Jeweled Amulet?

    I just cut Killer Bees, and I'm sad to do it. Anybody had luck with that card?


    The small chance that you'll get more than Talrand's Invocation or Hordeling Outburst out of these enchantments isn't nearly worth the (high) risk that they'll be completely useless either because you can't afford to cast a 3/4 mana do nothing enchantment or because you are in top deck mode with no cards in hand. There are far more reliable cards as payoff for spells matter decks or as control finishers and both cards are too slow for aggressive decks.

    Flood is situational and very colored mana hungry. If you have 4-6 blue mana and your opponent has no fliers it can be backbreaking, but cards like Icy Manipulator, Tumble Magnet or Pacification Array will almost always be better (and are colorless on top of that). If you want a finisher for aggressive decks play Sleep instead.

    I think there are about twenty mana rocks that are better than Jeweled Amulet, so if you ever want more than that it may be a playable option.

    Killer Bees isn't even very playable in old school, in cube it's just unbelievably bad. White has Aerial Responder, black has Vampire Nighthawk and green has...Killer Bees?

    Posted in: Pauper & Peasant Discussion
  • posted a message on [[Peasant]] The Peasant Cube Discussion Thread (C/U/)
    Cards that don't end up in any deck outside of the specific deck they are meant for are parasitic. Exhume is clearly such a card and Radiant, Archangel is also such a card, though to a slightly lesser degree as it at least has a small chance to end up in a random midrange and/or token deck as card #23.

    You can only have so much removal. If you play cards that are worse just to make Mesa Enchantress work you already start to change your cube design just to make that one card work. And even if you do that replacing Swords and Path with Pacifism effects won't nearly be enough, you're bound to run a lot more enchantments than a typical cube would to make a card like Enchantress work.

    Ethereal Armor without other enchantments is not good enough, not even close. The problem is not that it would be unplayable garbage if it ended up in a deck, the problem is that in a typical cube it simply would never end up in a deck because without proper support it's way worse than at least 23 other cards a drafter could pick from a typical cube draft.

    This generally seems to be the problem with your approach. Of course you can lower your whole cube power level so much that Ethereal Armor on its own would be a very decent card that ends up in a deck, but I don't think that's what we talk about here. You can only have 23 nonland cards in your deck and you draft 45 cards, so the quality of a card is determined by the quality of the other cards in the cube.

    If a card always ends up on spot #24+ when you build your deck it doesn't matter that it's not 'unplayable garbage'. All that matters is that it's useless in the context of that specific cube as it simply never gets played.



    Posted in: Pauper & Peasant Discussion
  • posted a message on [[Peasant]] The Peasant Cube Discussion Thread (C/U/)


    Exhume and Radiant Archangel aren't parasitic cards, they're just good/decent cards in any deck with the potential to get nuts with specific cards.

    Pacifisms and auras like Ethereal Armor or Hyena Umbra are always good. You can pile those into white and green and there you go.


    Exhume is pretty much exclusively playable in ub reanimator and maybe somtimes in gb graveyard. In any other deck the chance that it does nothing or is even actively bad for you is far too high.

    Radiant, Archangel is slightly less parasitic, but in Peasant it's simply not good enough outside of a dedicated uw skies deck. Serra Angel is mediocre at best in peasant so no one right in their mind would draft Radiant over other cards in a deck with just 4-5 other fliers unless he was absolutely desperate for card #23, which doesn't really happen very often in cube.

    If you start to put in all kind of pacifisms effects over other, better removal spells and auras (that are parasitic on their own, like Ethereal Armor) in numbers that simply aren't needed for non-enchantment decks then you do exactly what I say. You add cards that are normally not good enough and that have no/hardly any place outside of the enchantment deck just to make that one parasitic card more playable.
    Posted in: Pauper & Peasant Discussion
  • posted a message on [[Peasant]] The Peasant Cube Discussion Thread (C/U/)
    The problem with a card like Mesa Enchantress is not that it's parasitic, it's that you need other parasitic cards to support it. How many enchantments in white does the typical cube have? My 420 cube has 11 (out of 66 total white cards). And that's by far the largest amount out of all colors. Now imagine that most of these enchantments are universally playable (and thus get drafted by almost anyone drafting white), what do you end up with if you draft an enchantment deck?

    Mesa Enchantress is decent if you draw 2 cards from it and it's only good if you draw 3+ cards. How many enchantments do you need in your deck to do that (again, reliably)? That's not going to happen unless you deliberately add enchantment cards that aren't good enough outside of enchantment.dec.

    I don't mind a few cards that are parasitic if they work well enough in a deck you can reasonably draft with cards that work in many different decks (such as Exhume, Favorable Winds or Radiant, Archangel), but Mesa Enchantress is certainly not one of them.
    Posted in: Pauper & Peasant Discussion
  • posted a message on c19 - aka what kind of busted treats are we getting this time?
    If Dauntless Bodyguard was a 1/2 he would be unplayable from my pov. While Cliffside Rescuer has a bit more upside he's similar in that regard. If I want that effect in my deck I would draft a card like Shelter or Flickering Ward instead of a bad creature version of it. I'm not saying it's unplayable, but there are more than enough 2 cmc creatures in white to choose from and this is only a mediocre option at best.

    'Hate Mirage' looks like a decent card. If you can copy creatures with decent etb effects this can be brutal. Just not sure what to cut for it.
    Posted in: Pauper & Peasant Discussion
  • posted a message on [[Peasant]] Peasant Charity Thread
    This thread is pretty old, but I remembered it and now I need it!

    I want to add a 2/3 Corpse Knight misprint to my cube, but apparently the misprint was only produced in the US and in the Asia/Pacific region. Here in Europe none have appeared even two weeks after the prerelease. In the US however they seem to be very common. So...does anyone have a misprint he/she would like to donate?

    I will gladly donate Peasant cards as well, I have a lot of stuff I don't need that is playable in CU/be. Nothing super expensive, but if you need something just send me a list. Of course I will donate even without getting a Corpse Knight in return!
    Posted in: Pauper & Peasant Discussion
  • posted a message on Why Pauper/Peasant?
    You can absolutely create a cube that plays like a peasant or even pauper cube while using rares and mythics. But it would be much harder to balance since almost no one has a cube like that and you'd have to test all the cards yourself. And you have no one to talk to and discuss with. To me that's part of the fun.

    Personally I have one rare per color in my peasant cube to fill holes I can't fill with uncommons or commons and I break the singleton rules for lands because color fixing just sucks in peasant and pauper. This still allows me to discuss new (and old) cards with other peasant cubers and I could build my initial cube from a well tested list without knowing much about CU/be.

    If you can play multiple times a week, if your cube is something you want to put a lot of work into and if you don't care much about discussing cards with other people then making a low power level (as in far from the typical powered or unpowered rare cubes) cube out of all rarities may even be better than just building a pauper or peasant cube. But for most people it's way easier and more fun to play/build in a specific already tested environment.
    Posted in: Pauper & Peasant Discussion
  • posted a message on [[Peasant]] The Peasant Cube Discussion Thread (C/U/)
    I did the original list and thus the thread, but all my posts were deleted when the ownership changed. I still have the 2017 versions of the lists on cubetutor if anyone wants to add them to a new thread.
    Posted in: Pauper & Peasant Discussion
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