go.dec
I definitely run 25 Land, that should be the absolute minimum.
Well let me state why I think you can get away with 24. The single biggest reason is that every color has a fixer that sets you into either ramping or making more mana drops. be it think twice emmisary or ravings. all on two. This allows us to get greedy. Too many times when I played the original JVL list I was flooding like crazy. Ridiculous floods that shouldn't happen. This was a habitual problem before adding emmisary.
I've personally leaned away from 8 counters. Mana leak is relatively poor right now, and anytime you draw 2 dissipates against an aggro deck, ramp style deck, you end up doing nothing for a very long time. Either that or your forced to be too aggressive with either a loose call or sub-par maindeck options, IE running mayor and the like.
I feel like slagstorm snapcaster is the reason to play this deck. Being able to use your wrath as a burn spell late, or simply blowing your opponent out with an eot beast into wipe their board seems profitable to me. While slag is losing value because of the other red x decks, it still wins games, and it's still worth playing. slag also happens to have excellent synergy with emmisary, which is exactly where you want to be. On top of getting the basic that you want, or just a land to keep your duals coming in untapped.
Tree is fine. It's a stalemate against aggressive strategies, that survives your own wraths, and blocks infinitely. Its also one of the sure fire ways to beat rdw by giving you enough time to stabilize.
Baterskull is great. But if your considering running it en mass, consider that your threat costs 5 against decks that curve out at 4. Also consider that your basically giving in to cards like manic vandal and ancient grudge. These are cards that are supposed to be practically dead against us. Running one skull seems fine. It gives you that oops factor, and forces them to either do something about it post board, or take the chance of getting blown out.
Ratchet bomb is fine. Its an instant speed wrath against the token decks, which is what we need to compete with them right now. Slagstorm is in an akward phase where because one of the tier decks is playing it and placing, we get the backdoor of all that hate. IE cards like phyrexian crusader etc. also if your living the dream of equipping a batterskull to a thrun, then you've probably won the game anyways against rdw. you mine as well have played a wurmcoil, as it would have been cheaper in the long run, and doesn't get spanked in the same way tapping out for batterskull does.
grudge is really good right now. I agree. I devote 2 maindeck slots to it in agreement with the original list and one in the board. I feel like 4 is alittle excessive and a waste of a slot.
I do not understand why alot of you are trying to play aggressive rug. It makes literally no sense to me. Not only do you get raped in the butt by the same removal spells your casting against your opponent, but its a waste of time to play a deck with an already ridiculously greedy mana base; and then expect to curve out in the same way the other 2 color decks are doing.
I think we should come to an agreement on a standardized core of cards that we all think should be in a rug list.
I would say the following is not up for debate
24-25 lands
4 think twice
3 desperate ravings
3-4 mana leak
3-4 dissipate
2-3 thrun
4 viridian emmisary
3 snapcaster
2-3 beast within
4 slagstorm
outside of that I think its safe to assume there are lots of disagreements.
Im also looking at board issues at this point. As solar flare is practicly dead, the other control decks are more interesting to me at the present moment. this is what im currently looking like for a board.
sb
2 negate
2 jace
2 ghost quarter
2 primeval titan
1 ancient grudge
3 ratchet bomb
2 tree of redemption
let me know what your thoughts are. I read this thread at work Dont ruin my night hehe
I played at Michigan States with the following list
25 Lands (Identicle to the Lunan List)
4 mana leak
3 Dissipate
4 Think Twice
3 Desperate Ravings
4 Slagstorm
2 Ghiestflame
1 Incinerate
1 Devils Play
3 Thrun
3 Snapcaster
2 Frost Titan
1 Batterskull
3 Beast Within
1 ancient grudge
Sb:
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Noxious Revival
4 Tree
1 Blue Sun's Zenith (Should have been Jace, but couldnt aquire one.)
2 Negate
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Galvonic Blast
1 Incinerate
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Overall I didn't do too bad, but I could have managed better if I had just played a bit better. I am certainly capable of high level play.
Notes:
Ancient grudge is a 2/1 split main/board. No question. It was absolutely a mistake to cut one from the original list.
wurmcoil in the board in place of a titan or adding to titan count felt good.
Frost titan is bananas in this deck, and im suprised to have not seen it more. I won more games off the back of titan or devil's play then anything else.
Now originally when I picked this deck up I felt that the position you wanted to play against the other control decks was the draw go burn them to death roll, but when actual playtesting happened it turned out to be much more of a tempo style role, where you assume the advantage with desperates and thinks, and then ride the thrun burn train or titan train home.
Batterskull is still nuts. It's exactly what you want, and its fine against control.
Noxious revival in theory is nuts. I actually wanted to play one in the main. Its really good in general, and it seems insane in the solar flare matchup.
If I had to remake my list again it would probobly look like the following
4 think
3 desperate
4 leak
3 dissipate
4 slag
2 gheist
1 devils play
3 thrun
3 snap
2 frost
1 batterskull
2 Beast
2 grudge
1 noxious
board
2 surgical
4 tree
1 grudge
1 wurmcoil
2 negate
2 jace
1 galvonic blast
1 incinerate (or blast number 2. I prefered this because it kills flipped mayors as well as random beast within tokens, and is just honestly the better burn spell.)
1 Extra slot
Clearly the wolf run matchup is pretty bad, but there are ways to make it better. This is what we should be leaning towards. RDW is clearly not a big winner from this weekend, and solar flare had its weekend as well. Wolf run seems to be the hot trend. As well as that spicy infect deck that kicks the snot out of wolf run.
With greater gargadon suspended and a melira in play you cast or zenith a kitchen finks into play. Sacrifice the finks to (GG) puting the time counter that removes on the stack with persist ahead, resolve persist, gain 2, repreat process any number of times. Once you resolve the stack greater gargadon will unsuspend and cast, giving you a 9/7 hasty gargadon of doom. If your having trouble killing your opponent for whatever reasons theres 2 long term game plans.
1. Grove punishing fire them out.
2. Make them draw their deck. Primal command allows you to continually shuffle, and coincidentally it also bounces ruins if they are on that plan as well.
Dryad arbor smooths out spell heavy draws. It's a necessary component for this deck. Sometimes it's not as good, but more often then not you'd rather have access to it, then not have it at all.
As for adding additional shocks, it really isn't necessary. The mana is fine. 2 temples is more then enough on 8 fetches 4 birds, 4 cobra. you only ever need 1 white source for a turn usually, so it could probobly go down, but 4 shocks isnt greedy.
The other cards your refering to are slow and clunky. Part of the reason this deck is so unique is that it can compete with other combo decks in speed, while also being fast enough to break aggro decks like domain zoo etc.
Im thoroughly confused at what your last statement is saying. Mind clarifying? If your talking about seijirri its primarily there to sneak in damage or protect your melira while your comboing off.
For records, here is a league trial I played in. didn't get to play in the finals, but judging I'm not sure I would have done well without the current board in place.
The idea of this deck was to ramp on 3 to 5 mana, cast a plow, t4 witness it back, t5 rinse repeat. With the speed of the current format it's not possible to really equate this strategy as I soon found out.
In testing various other old standard decks (5c Lark) a light hit my head. Melira combo is completely tutorable, fast, and fits into a mono green shell. This is what I ended up comming up with.
The scryb ranger is a flex slot that I havent figured out yet. I like the idea that you can block any size threat without protection or trample, bounce your dryad back to your hand, and go. The board it pretty solid as well. The real untested slot is great sable stag. I'm not sure if its worth playing or not. Maybe oversoul is the better option?
Anyways let me know what your thoughts are. this deck is a blast to play.
// Spells
[B] 2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor[/B]
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
[B]1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant[/B]
[B] 2 [SC] Decree of Justice[/B]
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [LG] Moat
1 [TE] Humility
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [B] Wrath of God
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [MM] Counterspell
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MBS] White Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [SHM] Fracturing Gust
SB: 2 [MOR] Negate
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [NPH] Beast Within
SB: 1 [OD] Ray of Distortion
SB: 2 [WL] Peacekeeper
Clearly if your not choosing to play decree then your not as good under standstill as you could/ may need to be, and this needs to be a consideration when people make statements period.
I don't really understand the sudden aversion away from elspeth. Elspeth is nuts in both aggro and control match ups. While jace creates new ways to not interact with the opponent, elspeth denies gameplans, takes down opposing jaces "very important" and ends games where you might not be able to hold control forever.
Alright, I think you need to calm down man. You are the one flaming now, so just cool it...we are here to discuss the deck not attack each other if we disagree.
I didn't feel like I was attacking anyone. Just dismissing someone who basicly told me in three posts that I didn't know what I was doing, and backing it up with poor statistical analysis.
But MM lets you get to the late game, it helps you control the early game which is what we were lacking. Even with MM we still have enough bombs to destroy people once we get to the late game. Im playing 3 MM and I still have 7 "bombs".
The same argument can be made for counterspell. Your simply reaching for anything that will give you a "I can do this at a time I normally couldn't, which makes this interaction good; and thus worth playing." But if the interaction isn't actually all that valuable, then your just stuck with an awkward card in your hand.
Good luck with getting anyone to test with you after your showing on this thread.
I didn't have a "showing." I made a point, some people reacted with "well if its not good then why did it do well at the starcity?" My response was simple.
1. It's not difficult STILL to do well at the starcity events, I would know; i've done pretty well.
2. These are two of the best players on the circuit, they could be playing belcher and they'd still have a 50% or more win ratio against the field.
3. Anyone who's questioning my reasoning should actually answer if they'd run 4 repeal in they're landstill list like Gerry T ran in his. That question still hasn't been answered, and it's been asked like three times. I'm very anxious to hear a response from any of you mental mistep advocates.
Well look at you, Mr. Pro.
Come on now, I was literally just saying it's easy to do well. No reason to get sarcastic.
All I can say is MM has been good in my experience, it was very good at the open and in testing. It helps you control the early game to reach the late game, it helps set up a good Standstill, and helps fight some of the top cards we worry about.
What is a "good" standstill? The only card your consistently worried about out of the list of three cards i've seen so far is vial. The others get plowed. Top isn't a threat to landstill, unless the mirror is playing it. So wheres the necessity in making landstilll weaker, while giving yourself a possible counter to 1 card? Have you actually done that much testing? If so, can you identify with us where mental mistep's weakness are in your experience? Everyone is treating this card as if it's better then swords, when in reality is quite obviously strictly worse.
I definitely run 25 Land, that should be the absolute minimum.
Well let me state why I think you can get away with 24. The single biggest reason is that every color has a fixer that sets you into either ramping or making more mana drops. be it think twice emmisary or ravings. all on two. This allows us to get greedy. Too many times when I played the original JVL list I was flooding like crazy. Ridiculous floods that shouldn't happen. This was a habitual problem before adding emmisary.
I've personally leaned away from 8 counters. Mana leak is relatively poor right now, and anytime you draw 2 dissipates against an aggro deck, ramp style deck, you end up doing nothing for a very long time. Either that or your forced to be too aggressive with either a loose call or sub-par maindeck options, IE running mayor and the like.
I feel like slagstorm snapcaster is the reason to play this deck. Being able to use your wrath as a burn spell late, or simply blowing your opponent out with an eot beast into wipe their board seems profitable to me. While slag is losing value because of the other red x decks, it still wins games, and it's still worth playing. slag also happens to have excellent synergy with emmisary, which is exactly where you want to be. On top of getting the basic that you want, or just a land to keep your duals coming in untapped.
Tree is fine. It's a stalemate against aggressive strategies, that survives your own wraths, and blocks infinitely. Its also one of the sure fire ways to beat rdw by giving you enough time to stabilize.
Baterskull is great. But if your considering running it en mass, consider that your threat costs 5 against decks that curve out at 4. Also consider that your basically giving in to cards like manic vandal and ancient grudge. These are cards that are supposed to be practically dead against us. Running one skull seems fine. It gives you that oops factor, and forces them to either do something about it post board, or take the chance of getting blown out.
Ratchet bomb is fine. Its an instant speed wrath against the token decks, which is what we need to compete with them right now. Slagstorm is in an akward phase where because one of the tier decks is playing it and placing, we get the backdoor of all that hate. IE cards like phyrexian crusader etc. also if your living the dream of equipping a batterskull to a thrun, then you've probably won the game anyways against rdw. you mine as well have played a wurmcoil, as it would have been cheaper in the long run, and doesn't get spanked in the same way tapping out for batterskull does.
grudge is really good right now. I agree. I devote 2 maindeck slots to it in agreement with the original list and one in the board. I feel like 4 is alittle excessive and a waste of a slot.
ill post more later.
I think we should come to an agreement on a standardized core of cards that we all think should be in a rug list.
I would say the following is not up for debate
24-25 lands
4 think twice
3 desperate ravings
3-4 mana leak
3-4 dissipate
2-3 thrun
4 viridian emmisary
3 snapcaster
2-3 beast within
4 slagstorm
outside of that I think its safe to assume there are lots of disagreements.
Im also looking at board issues at this point. As solar flare is practicly dead, the other control decks are more interesting to me at the present moment. this is what im currently looking like for a board.
sb
2 negate
2 jace
2 ghost quarter
2 primeval titan
1 ancient grudge
3 ratchet bomb
2 tree of redemption
let me know what your thoughts are. I read this thread at work
24 land (cutt a forest and a copperline for a wolf run in van lunan's list)
4 emmisary.
4 think twice
3 desperate
3 mana leak
3 dissipate
2 thrun
2 frost titan
3 snapcaster mage
2 ancient grudge
2 gheistflame
1 devils play
4 slagstorm
1 batterskull
2 beast within
the board looks like this
2 negate
2 jace
3 tree
1 beast
1 gheist
1 ancient
2 primeval titan
3 ghost quarter
25 Lands (Identicle to the Lunan List)
4 mana leak
3 Dissipate
4 Think Twice
3 Desperate Ravings
4 Slagstorm
2 Ghiestflame
1 Incinerate
1 Devils Play
3 Thrun
3 Snapcaster
2 Frost Titan
1 Batterskull
3 Beast Within
1 ancient grudge
Sb:
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Noxious Revival
4 Tree
1 Blue Sun's Zenith (Should have been Jace, but couldnt aquire one.)
2 Negate
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Galvonic Blast
1 Incinerate
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Overall I didn't do too bad, but I could have managed better if I had just played a bit better. I am certainly capable of high level play.
Notes:
Ancient grudge is a 2/1 split main/board. No question. It was absolutely a mistake to cut one from the original list.
wurmcoil in the board in place of a titan or adding to titan count felt good.
Frost titan is bananas in this deck, and im suprised to have not seen it more. I won more games off the back of titan or devil's play then anything else.
Now originally when I picked this deck up I felt that the position you wanted to play against the other control decks was the draw go burn them to death roll, but when actual playtesting happened it turned out to be much more of a tempo style role, where you assume the advantage with desperates and thinks, and then ride the thrun burn train or titan train home.
Batterskull is still nuts. It's exactly what you want, and its fine against control.
Noxious revival in theory is nuts. I actually wanted to play one in the main. Its really good in general, and it seems insane in the solar flare matchup.
If I had to remake my list again it would probobly look like the following
4 think
3 desperate
4 leak
3 dissipate
4 slag
2 gheist
1 devils play
3 thrun
3 snap
2 frost
1 batterskull
2 Beast
2 grudge
1 noxious
board
2 surgical
4 tree
1 grudge
1 wurmcoil
2 negate
2 jace
1 galvonic blast
1 incinerate (or blast number 2. I prefered this because it kills flipped mayors as well as random beast within tokens, and is just honestly the better burn spell.)
1 Extra slot
Clearly the wolf run matchup is pretty bad, but there are ways to make it better. This is what we should be leaning towards. RDW is clearly not a big winner from this weekend, and solar flare had its weekend as well. Wolf run seems to be the hot trend. As well as that spicy infect deck that kicks the snot out of wolf run.
kitchen finks-Melira-Greater gargadon. Infinate life, and you get a 9/7 out of the deal.
The combo works like this.
With greater gargadon suspended and a melira in play you cast or zenith a kitchen finks into play. Sacrifice the finks to (GG) puting the time counter that removes on the stack with persist ahead, resolve persist, gain 2, repreat process any number of times. Once you resolve the stack greater gargadon will unsuspend and cast, giving you a 9/7 hasty gargadon of doom. If your having trouble killing your opponent for whatever reasons theres 2 long term game plans.
1. Grove punishing fire them out.
2. Make them draw their deck. Primal command allows you to continually shuffle, and coincidentally it also bounces ruins if they are on that plan as well.
As for adding additional shocks, it really isn't necessary. The mana is fine. 2 temples is more then enough on 8 fetches 4 birds, 4 cobra. you only ever need 1 white source for a turn usually, so it could probobly go down, but 4 shocks isnt greedy.
The other cards your refering to are slow and clunky. Part of the reason this deck is so unique is that it can compete with other combo decks in speed, while also being fast enough to break aggro decks like domain zoo etc.
Im thoroughly confused at what your last statement is saying. Mind clarifying? If your talking about seijirri its primarily there to sneak in damage or protect your melira while your comboing off.
for reference
The idea of this deck was to ramp on 3 to 5 mana, cast a plow, t4 witness it back, t5 rinse repeat. With the speed of the current format it's not possible to really equate this strategy as I soon found out.
In testing various other old standard decks (5c Lark) a light hit my head. Melira combo is completely tutorable, fast, and fits into a mono green shell. This is what I ended up comming up with.
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
2 [GP] Stomping Ground
2 [RAV] Temple Garden
1 [WWK] Sejiri Steppe
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
5 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
// Creatures
3 [NPH] Melira, Sylvok Outcast
4 [B] Birds of Paradise
4 [ZEN] Lotus Cobra
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [TSP] Greater Gargadon
1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [LRW] Primal Command
3 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
3 [NPH] Mental Misstep
The scryb ranger is a flex slot that I havent figured out yet. I like the idea that you can block any size threat without protection or trample, bounce your dryad back to your hand, and go. The board it pretty solid as well. The real untested slot is great sable stag. I'm not sure if its worth playing or not. Maybe oversoul is the better option?
Anyways let me know what your thoughts are. this deck is a blast to play.
Clearly if your not choosing to play decree then your not as good under standstill as you could/ may need to be, and this needs to be a consideration when people make statements period.
I don't really understand the sudden aversion away from elspeth. Elspeth is nuts in both aggro and control match ups. While jace creates new ways to not interact with the opponent, elspeth denies gameplans, takes down opposing jaces "very important" and ends games where you might not be able to hold control forever.
I didn't feel like I was attacking anyone. Just dismissing someone who basicly told me in three posts that I didn't know what I was doing, and backing it up with poor statistical analysis.
The same argument can be made for counterspell. Your simply reaching for anything that will give you a "I can do this at a time I normally couldn't, which makes this interaction good; and thus worth playing." But if the interaction isn't actually all that valuable, then your just stuck with an awkward card in your hand.
I didn't have a "showing." I made a point, some people reacted with "well if its not good then why did it do well at the starcity?" My response was simple.
1. It's not difficult STILL to do well at the starcity events, I would know; i've done pretty well.
2. These are two of the best players on the circuit, they could be playing belcher and they'd still have a 50% or more win ratio against the field.
3. Anyone who's questioning my reasoning should actually answer if they'd run 4 repeal in they're landstill list like Gerry T ran in his. That question still hasn't been answered, and it's been asked like three times. I'm very anxious to hear a response from any of you mental mistep advocates.
Come on now, I was literally just saying it's easy to do well. No reason to get sarcastic.
What is a "good" standstill? The only card your consistently worried about out of the list of three cards i've seen so far is vial. The others get plowed. Top isn't a threat to landstill, unless the mirror is playing it. So wheres the necessity in making landstilll weaker, while giving yourself a possible counter to 1 card? Have you actually done that much testing? If so, can you identify with us where mental mistep's weakness are in your experience? Everyone is treating this card as if it's better then swords, when in reality is quite obviously strictly worse.