I agree on Tragic Slips, but if I may, what do You need Garruk for? Tutoring? Chump blockers? Wouldn't Chandra, the Firebrand with her 1 damage or clone target spell ability be better?
Of course by adding Chandra instead of Garruk the number of Bonfires would have to change(you can't clone them), but all in all, she seems a better choice than Garruk
Garruk provides chump blockers with the best of them and even sometimes acts as a removal card. As long as you keep flyers off the table he is a beast. He also can tip the balance just by pooping out wolves. I played Chandra for a while, but her biggest problem was her utter lack of self defense. She dies so often...and I just felt that she was ultimately too cute for this deck. She does have some cool interactions with her copy effect, but she just provided 0 tempo solutions and her +1 left a lot to be desired. Ultimately, it is really hard to explain. I just recommend you try Garruk out for yourself. Maybe it is just me, but I think he just works better (for whatever reason) with what this deck is trying to achieve.
Also, you can copy a Bonfire (I assume you meant copy not clone). There was a time too when I thought you could not copy x spells as well, but apparently the rule either changed or somebody told me wrong when I was first learning.
So I did some playtesting last night with my deck... I spent the first 3 hours getting crushed by B/G zombies (mostly Dreg Mangler which made the sorcery speed removal awkward), and a Bant Midrange deck that is still being constructed by a friend. I then made some emergency changes +1 Tragic Slip -1 Pillar of Flame, +1 Abrupt Decay -1 Dreadbore, +1 Kessig Wolf Run -1 Mountain, +1 Olivia -1 swamp. Then the deck proceeded to crush both decks for the next 2 hours until I left. It is odd that such minor changes could lead to such dramatic changes in the results. I was particularly surprised that the deck preferred to play 23 lands instead of the 24 when we all have pretty much held that number as sacrosanct. So without further ado...My list:
Once the changes were made this deck became a well oiled machine of death and destruction. That extra Tragic Slip may have been the answer all along. It makes sense with all the chump blocking this deck does.
It works very well. The cost is admittedly problematic, though, so whenever I have time to do more testing I'm going to be running Underworld Connections in place of the Borderland Rangers. Compared to my most recently posted list, I think what I've changed has been:
-2 Borderland Ranger
-1 Staff of Nin
+2 Underworld Connections
+1 Olivia Voldaren (either her or a 3rd Thragtusk, haven't decided yet)..
Let me know how underworld connections works. I personally am still rolling with tried and true sign in bloods and am always interested in more ways to draw cards.
El Panda Rojo ive tried out your latest deck list it works really well the only thing im wondering is the Mizzium Mortars i know its good but i have bonfires so i dont know what one im going to play any suggestions?
You run Bonfire. He would if he had them I assure you.
As for El Panda Rojo. I have question for you. I have been testing a list that is comparable to yours. Why do you have Staff of Nin? I like the card draw aspect, but it feels underwhelming for the cost...
I'm curious, how's this style of control supposed to compete against traditional control? It's feels like u/w would eat it alive.
Maybe I am speaking too soon, but I really feel like the rest of the format really eats U/W alive. Honestly U/W is going to have to change if they want to keep up with some of the fast aggro decks (zombies) that will be around. They got some nice stuff, but nothing that compares favorably with how fast this format is going to become.
Honestly the card that is giving me pause right now is actually Sigarda... I have 3 cards (Bonfire) that deal with that lady not counting incidental Nighthawks. If somebody drops her on me I could see it being a very long day at the office.
I feel like you're looking at this card the wrong way. I'm considering the mana ability to be basically irrelevant, for all intents and purposes; it's his last 2 abilities that I think will be useful.
I don't see him being a turn-1 play, if that helps clarify. I think he's a fantastic pseudo-finisher; mid or late game, drop him and then just start taking things out of our opponent's graveyard (or our own, if necessary, since the abilities both say "a" graveyard) to either gain life, or deal damage to the face.
Deathrite Shaman shrugs at board wipes. If you draw it vs. control, for example, just keep it in hand and then play it after a Supreme Verdict or a Mutilate, and start poking at our opponent's head. Oh, you killed all my creatures? That's fine, now take 2 to the dome. Now 2 more. Yeah, that's right, take it! etc etc
Just one example of how I think he could be used. I don't see him as a hate card at all; I would use him as a midgame utility card.
I might go so far as saying that he is actually a sideboard card. I would probably board him in against zombies and control. I would also probably drop him turn 1 in those matches as he puts people on a clock.
Sure white has it's issues, but I love it anyways. When I built my Mono-white Kemba deck I saw it as a challenge. I think it is arguable that as far as overall card quality goes it is probably the best color. It's spells are amazingly versatile, and its creatures are some of the best. Return to Dust being a great example of the first and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite being a great example of the latter. In fact, it is because of this overall card quality that white probably has so little in the way of efficient card draw. It balances the color.
Also, a cunning way I have found to get around Mono-white's card draw weaknesses is to not only run good artifacts and other obvious card draw effects like Sensei's Divining Top, Land Tax, Sword of Fire and Ice, Stoneforge Mystic, Mind's Eye, Ranger of Eos, Skull Clamp, etc....but also run cards that give you solid value when they hit play. Cards that produce a ton of tokens like Martial Coup, Decree of Justice, Elspeth Tirel, Captain of the Watch, and Spectral Procession all produce value. This is especially true with the Equipment I already run. As long as I have even a 1/1 it can still win the game if I am equiping a protection sword and an Argentum Armor to it. Even cards that provide passive value like Hero of Bladehold can be awesome. The name of the game with white is making people work for it. If they are going to out-draw you then you are just going to have to win with cards that give you more than just one of anything.
As far as Kemba. I pleased to say that I would take it up against even tier decks at a multi-player table. It may not win, but then again I do not care about winning... I care about making an impact on the game. Losing doesn't mean the deck stinks unless you sat there and did nothing for an entire game.
My OP list lacks the required sac outlet which is usually Mirror Entity in bant. Without the ability to sacrifice the creatures repeatedly you cannot create the loop.
This is true. I don't run Entity either. What I am saying is you don't need to go infinite to run out a combo. Regardless of what it is attempting to do Reveillark Body Double is still a combo. Just not an infinite combo. Even fetching up Lark/Double (without the Entity)/Guide or E-Wit is enough to win games. You gain extraordinary card advantage from your graveyard, and it is ready made to be tutored with Intuition. And if you already have one of those recursive creatures in hand then load up the graveyard EOT and go to "valuetown" the following turn.
I just thought I would drop one more little tidbit in here. I actually dont run larc combo. I have infinite turns as an option but I dont build around executing that so much as it happened to be an option that was available while I was running cards that fit what I wanted to be doing.
Hrm. Interesting. Yet the decklist at the front of the thread has lark combo in it. It is exactly like mine. In fact, I used to run Time Stretch untill I realized that I could easily get infinite turns myself. I susequently cut it and replaced it with Rite of Replication I have 0 infinite combos in my deck, but I do have the ability to recur many of my creatures from Lark, Body Double, and Karmic Guide. Simply fetching these three cards (at instant speed I might add) with a single Intuition means you lose nothing. It really is an imposible decision to make as all of the above simply will bring the combo online. Again, it is not my place to tell you what you should run, but it is a very solid card in my build and I strongly suggest you give it a try.
First, thanks for responding. I am interested in others Bant decks. Mine has been a work in progress for over 3.5 years now. The perspective truly helps.
Thanks for the question and thanks Blueram for covering them. My own responses are quite similar but I will throw in my own $0.02 as well just in case.
Jenara as a commander - Her mana cost and flexability are really big reasons as to why I would run her over Treva still. When you look at paying 6 mana, Jenara would be able to be played and still pump 1.5 times for that mana meaning that she comes in faster and if you want you can pump her. I just feel she is a lot more versatile in general than Treva. There are times where I will pump her but that tends to be when I have to race someone or have nothing better to do. She has a lot of different uses and even just playing her for 3 mana and hitting someone for 3 for the next 4 turns really adds up. In my mind, the more you play with her, the better you get at playing and pumping her appropriately. I have some games where I never cast her, and I have some games where she is the lynchpin to success. What I like the most is that she fills in the gaps a lot for me coming in cheap and scaling well into late game. Overall the reasons I would run her over treva is that she is just a lot cheaper and can still be as large or bigger. .
I can accept this. As I said I honestly don't really personally like any of the current generals available for Bant anyway. They are either overplayed or gimmicky.
Intuition it is a good card but it requires you to jump through a lot of hoops. I would run it if my primary goal was to combo out but currently I am more for just having the infinite turns combo and not exactly pushing it as my wincon. If your overall goal is to combo out though it is a good add but it requires a lot of dumping good creatures and a lot of setup to grab what you want.
I am not sure what hoops you are referring to here. The card is like Gifts Ungiven I primarily use it to get Lark/Guide/Body Double/E-Wit. The goal not necessarily being to get a combo out, but to bring the deck recursion engine online. Litterally you lose 0 resources using this card. When I built this deck the first thing I wanted to do was for me to be able to obtain the ultimate form of card advantage (use my graveyard as well as I can use my hand). That instead of my graveyard being a different zone of play it was more like my personal tool box that I could pull cards out of at any point to answer any threat. I don't go infinite, and don't really "combo out" in the traditional sense. I just gain incredible card advantage. Also I will note that Survival of the Fittest requires "dumping a lot of good creatures", but you don't seem to have any problem running that? You should try it out. Honestly, I think it is better than you are giving it credit for.
Knight of the Reliquary I ran him for a while but in the end decided that his land fixing wasn't all that needed in this deck. He can be a big beater but didn't fit the theme of the deck and I had several times where he would hit play and just die before doing anything. He is a decent beater with some nice utility but overall I just felt he was slow in this deck. I would use him again though if there were a certain land that I felt I really needed in play early on. Overall though most of my utility lands still hit play off of primetime at some point in the game. I got to the point that I felt he was mostly in the deck to try to be a cheap beater which in the end I felt wasn't really needed for this deck.
I can agree with this. I however just added Avenger of Zendikar to my build and figure that he might be cute in triggering the landfall. Perhaps your build is less suited, but he still comes up huge at my games.
Venser, Shaper Savant I played him before and honestly I do like him but I had some problems at times with how temporary his bounce can be. Overall though I would like to find a spot to get him back in the list. Sometimes cuts can be rough though but I do like him.
Your preaching to the choir here. I just cut (gasp) Life From the Loam and Genesis from my build. But I needed to get away from some of my graveyard theme in an attempt to deal with all the grave hate that is getting printed (and used).
Aura Shards - it depends on what sort of value you can expect from it to be honest. When I would play it in the early game I would say 60-70% of the time it would just die immediately. If you can stick it reliably then I think it is nice but I had a hard time getting value from it quickly and sticking it overall. I really love this in a deck that can get fast and cheap tokens such as Ghave but I had a hard time getting value from it in here.
Again, this may be a matter of what your trying to accomplish vs. what I am trying to accomplish. We both run similar cards, but it sounds like your less likely to go for the Reveillark combo in your build than I am. I also run many ways to blink,kill,or bounce said lark and I am almost always removing every artifact and enchantment before my opponent has had time to pick his jaw up off the floor. Again, Sun Titan gives this card added value in here. Just a thought.
Akroma - part of the appeal is that she plays great offense and defense at the same time. Her haste gives you quick results and overall she isnt a value target that tends to draw down quality spot removal. She can be really solid when the board is getting a little crazy but you dont want to wrath. While in play she usually turns most everything away from you so she plays really nice board control. I have considered cutting her a few times but in all reality she does play some solid offense / defense at the same time. People dont worry too much about taking 6 dmg and she doesnt tend to draw removal from players who arent getting hit by her.
She is solid, I will give you that, but I feel like Avenger actually does something when it enters the battlefield. This is an ETB deck afterall. Also, people who play against you must never have seen her in the day... As my group almost always kills her immediately. Lol, even I may clone an enemy's Akroma just to remove the lady from the field. She is really good, but she would probably get me 1 swing max before she was taken from me or killed. 6 damage sadly just doesn't seem worth it when there are so many creatures that give you added value in a deck like this. But I will give you props for running her. I am an Angel collector afterall!
I ran Jenara a few years ago... I switched to Treva. My problem with Jenara is that she is overly aggressive in this type of deck (which to me wants to be control). You are correct to say that Treva is a weak general, but this deck wants to play with its other 99 IMO, and I just do not think Jenara lets you do that. I mean, have you ever run into the situation where it is either I sit here and continue to pump Jenara or do I attempt to develop my board position? Lol, I mean I would say a good 75-85% of the time I do not even bother playing my general anway. The card quality in these colors is strong enough to where it just is not necessary, and until we get a Bant general that legit flickers something upon ETB I really doubt any of the current options are all that great.
Intution is probably the highest on my list of cards I am wondering about and Venser is probably second. Knight has been crazy for me as it garuntees I can get obvious powerhouses like High Market in play to protect my stuff. Venser is just a great and I would probably never remove him from my list. Intuition is just busted in half in this deck. Nothing really beats it and I see no reason not to run it if you have so much recursion.
I disagree with your assesment of Aura Shards. It is a must play card in these colors. Any deck that has Body-Lark in it really has no excuse IMO. And your resoning for value generation is a bit flawed when Sun Titan exists and it is clearly recurable.
Just my thoughts on your deck. I personally have never considered Scavenging Ooz or Gilded Drake in my deck. Both seem like potentially nice additions. I particularly think drake is a more interesting option over my current Sower of Temptation.
Lol, one more thing... Why is everybody so in love with Akroma in this deck? I get it she is good...but isn't there something more in theme with this deck? It just seems like she is way to easy to deal with IMO.
Honestly, I have always told my friends that they should pretend there is an imaginary line. If they cross it then they should know full well that they are only doing so because they apparently lack the play-skill to beat me in a fair match. I mean, anybody can build a combo deck that wins by turn 4-7 in EDH, it really does not require all that much skill. I personally prefer to win through interaction and think it shows far more knowledge of the game. That however is just my opinion.
Really? Karakas is what people want? pssh... Yay for sideboard Legacy answers I guess. I would much rather have something maindeckable like a Maze of Ith or a wasteland as the value card. That's just me I guess. Here is hoping for an Academy Ruins.
Woah, been here since '07 myself and this is out of nowhere! I certainly hope we can continue in some form... I have come to rely on this site as my main MTG website. Also I am still curious about why? Magic was still doing pretty well by all measures. Suggesting they could not justify the expense implies that the site itself was not doing well despite the popularity of the game writ large. That is something considering this website is one of the bigger sites for non-retailer related magic content.
Lol, I just replaced Prime-Time with the next most busted card in my Bant Deck... Deadeye Navigator.
Not sure how this gets replaced in Mono Green elves though...
Garruk provides chump blockers with the best of them and even sometimes acts as a removal card. As long as you keep flyers off the table he is a beast. He also can tip the balance just by pooping out wolves. I played Chandra for a while, but her biggest problem was her utter lack of self defense. She dies so often...and I just felt that she was ultimately too cute for this deck. She does have some cool interactions with her copy effect, but she just provided 0 tempo solutions and her +1 left a lot to be desired. Ultimately, it is really hard to explain. I just recommend you try Garruk out for yourself. Maybe it is just me, but I think he just works better (for whatever reason) with what this deck is trying to achieve.
Also, you can copy a Bonfire (I assume you meant copy not clone). There was a time too when I thought you could not copy x spells as well, but apparently the rule either changed or somebody told me wrong when I was first learning.
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Huntmaster of the Fells
3x Thragtusk
2x Olivia Voldaren
Spells
4x Farseek
3x Sign in Blood
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Tragic Slip
3x Dreadbore
3x Pillar of Flame
3x Bonfire of the Damned
2x Garruk Relentless
Lands
4x Blood Crypt
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Dragonskull Summit
4x Woodland Cemetery
2x Rootbound Crag
2x Kessig Wolf Run
2x Forest
1x Swamp
Once the changes were made this deck became a well oiled machine of death and destruction. That extra Tragic Slip may have been the answer all along. It makes sense with all the chump blocking this deck does.
Let me know how underworld connections works. I personally am still rolling with tried and true sign in bloods and am always interested in more ways to draw cards.
You run Bonfire. He would if he had them I assure you.
As for El Panda Rojo. I have question for you. I have been testing a list that is comparable to yours. Why do you have Staff of Nin? I like the card draw aspect, but it feels underwhelming for the cost...
Maybe I am speaking too soon, but I really feel like the rest of the format really eats U/W alive. Honestly U/W is going to have to change if they want to keep up with some of the fast aggro decks (zombies) that will be around. They got some nice stuff, but nothing that compares favorably with how fast this format is going to become.
Honestly the card that is giving me pause right now is actually Sigarda... I have 3 cards (Bonfire) that deal with that lady not counting incidental Nighthawks. If somebody drops her on me I could see it being a very long day at the office.
I might go so far as saying that he is actually a sideboard card. I would probably board him in against zombies and control. I would also probably drop him turn 1 in those matches as he puts people on a clock.
Also, a cunning way I have found to get around Mono-white's card draw weaknesses is to not only run good artifacts and other obvious card draw effects like Sensei's Divining Top, Land Tax, Sword of Fire and Ice, Stoneforge Mystic, Mind's Eye, Ranger of Eos, Skull Clamp, etc....but also run cards that give you solid value when they hit play. Cards that produce a ton of tokens like Martial Coup, Decree of Justice, Elspeth Tirel, Captain of the Watch, and Spectral Procession all produce value. This is especially true with the Equipment I already run. As long as I have even a 1/1 it can still win the game if I am equiping a protection sword and an Argentum Armor to it. Even cards that provide passive value like Hero of Bladehold can be awesome. The name of the game with white is making people work for it. If they are going to out-draw you then you are just going to have to win with cards that give you more than just one of anything.
As far as Kemba. I pleased to say that I would take it up against even tier decks at a multi-player table. It may not win, but then again I do not care about winning... I care about making an impact on the game. Losing doesn't mean the deck stinks unless you sat there and did nothing for an entire game.
You know... It just dawned on me. Lol that must be the Gruul letter!
This is true. I don't run Entity either. What I am saying is you don't need to go infinite to run out a combo. Regardless of what it is attempting to do Reveillark Body Double is still a combo. Just not an infinite combo. Even fetching up Lark/Double (without the Entity)/Guide or E-Wit is enough to win games. You gain extraordinary card advantage from your graveyard, and it is ready made to be tutored with Intuition. And if you already have one of those recursive creatures in hand then load up the graveyard EOT and go to "valuetown" the following turn.
Hrm. Interesting. Yet the decklist at the front of the thread has lark combo in it. It is exactly like mine. In fact, I used to run Time Stretch untill I realized that I could easily get infinite turns myself. I susequently cut it and replaced it with Rite of Replication I have 0 infinite combos in my deck, but I do have the ability to recur many of my creatures from Lark, Body Double, and Karmic Guide. Simply fetching these three cards (at instant speed I might add) with a single Intuition means you lose nothing. It really is an imposible decision to make as all of the above simply will bring the combo online. Again, it is not my place to tell you what you should run, but it is a very solid card in my build and I strongly suggest you give it a try.
I can accept this. As I said I honestly don't really personally like any of the current generals available for Bant anyway. They are either overplayed or gimmicky.
I am not sure what hoops you are referring to here. The card is like Gifts Ungiven I primarily use it to get Lark/Guide/Body Double/E-Wit. The goal not necessarily being to get a combo out, but to bring the deck recursion engine online. Litterally you lose 0 resources using this card. When I built this deck the first thing I wanted to do was for me to be able to obtain the ultimate form of card advantage (use my graveyard as well as I can use my hand). That instead of my graveyard being a different zone of play it was more like my personal tool box that I could pull cards out of at any point to answer any threat. I don't go infinite, and don't really "combo out" in the traditional sense. I just gain incredible card advantage. Also I will note that Survival of the Fittest requires "dumping a lot of good creatures", but you don't seem to have any problem running that? You should try it out. Honestly, I think it is better than you are giving it credit for.
I can agree with this. I however just added Avenger of Zendikar to my build and figure that he might be cute in triggering the landfall. Perhaps your build is less suited, but he still comes up huge at my games.
Your preaching to the choir here. I just cut (gasp) Life From the Loam and Genesis from my build. But I needed to get away from some of my graveyard theme in an attempt to deal with all the grave hate that is getting printed (and used).
Again, this may be a matter of what your trying to accomplish vs. what I am trying to accomplish. We both run similar cards, but it sounds like your less likely to go for the Reveillark combo in your build than I am. I also run many ways to blink,kill,or bounce said lark and I am almost always removing every artifact and enchantment before my opponent has had time to pick his jaw up off the floor. Again, Sun Titan gives this card added value in here. Just a thought.
She is solid, I will give you that, but I feel like Avenger actually does something when it enters the battlefield. This is an ETB deck afterall. Also, people who play against you must never have seen her in the day... As my group almost always kills her immediately. Lol, even I may clone an enemy's Akroma just to remove the lady from the field. She is really good, but she would probably get me 1 swing max before she was taken from me or killed. 6 damage sadly just doesn't seem worth it when there are so many creatures that give you added value in a deck like this. But I will give you props for running her. I am an Angel collector afterall!
Also I would like to know your reasons for not including cards like:
Intuition
Knight of the Reliquary
Venser, Shaper Savant
Intution is probably the highest on my list of cards I am wondering about and Venser is probably second. Knight has been crazy for me as it garuntees I can get obvious powerhouses like High Market in play to protect my stuff. Venser is just a great and I would probably never remove him from my list. Intuition is just busted in half in this deck. Nothing really beats it and I see no reason not to run it if you have so much recursion.
I disagree with your assesment of Aura Shards. It is a must play card in these colors. Any deck that has Body-Lark in it really has no excuse IMO. And your resoning for value generation is a bit flawed when Sun Titan exists and it is clearly recurable.
Just my thoughts on your deck. I personally have never considered Scavenging Ooz or Gilded Drake in my deck. Both seem like potentially nice additions. I particularly think drake is a more interesting option over my current Sower of Temptation.
Lol, one more thing... Why is everybody so in love with Akroma in this deck? I get it she is good...but isn't there something more in theme with this deck? It just seems like she is way to easy to deal with IMO.