Since some people are curious about an Abbot/tempo build, I figured I shared my list.
Just to be clear: I don't think this approach is necessarily better than the "stock" list, it's more of a different take on the archetype. The goal is to be more aggressive and kill your opponent while he/she still has many cards in hand, as opposed the more midrange shell that is better at grinding. I just want to emphasize that this implies building the deck quite differently (and some card choices might seem "heretical" from the point of view of the stock list!). Again, not saying it's better, just different.
My current list (apologies I'm not familiar with the deck templating tool, but I'll fix this soon):
Creatures (18)
4 Delver of secretes
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Gurmag Angler
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Abbot of Keral Keep
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Spell Pierce
1 Negate
1 Dispel
2 Molten Rain
2 Dragon's Claw
1 Go for the throat
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kolaghan's command
Difference with the stock list:
- More creatures: I play no pyromancer, but instead added 6 Prowess guys. Swiftspear is at the core of the deck, there is now 8 one drops to guarantee a fast start. You can beat many fair decks but curving swiftspear into a flow of cantrips and removal. Abbot is good here, but not incredible, I don't really like more than 2. But prowess creatures combo with other prowess creatures, and I think he's much better in this deck than YP, as we're not interested in blocking and he is better in combat. Also, I don't think you should hesitate to play him turn 2 if you need a threat: think of the ETB ability as a bonus to mitigate flooding, or that makes him a fine topdeck in the late game. Also, running more creatures means that delver flips less often (but also you need him to flip slightly less).
- No counterspell: I currently play none but could see adding 2 (instead of 2 removal spell). The reason I don't run any at the moment, is that (given my meta) it's not clear to me what is the best among spell pierce, remand, mana leak, dispel, spell snare. But if you know which on you want, you should definitely run a couple. My current frontrunner is spell pierce (I actually like remand much less in this build). Playing a few Abbot is not a reason to not play a couple of those, the ETB interaction doesn't come too often. You don't want to play more than 2 counters MD though, as they are a nombo with prowess.
The general philosophy of deck building is to run more creatures and less counterspells. This combination is what makes the deck work: (i) when you have more threats, you don't need counters as much to protect; and (ii) prowess creatures are good with other prowess creatures, but not with counterspells. This is tempo deck: if you like to keep mana up, then this is not the deck for you Prowess is also a combo with delve and cantrips. It sounds trivial, but it's easy to forget how powerful prowess really is in a deck like where everything cost one mana: your guys are huge! And delve guys are the best follow up to an early wave of aggression.
- Mana base: this is close to a UR delver build with a black splash. You don't need black early, so you don't play swamp. You have fewer black cards, so that blood moon is actually quite bad about you. None of my opponents ever bring it in. I'm still working on the exact mix of non basics though.
- Removal package: Because black is a splash you play fewer terminates. Dismember can be cast for 1, which comes up relatively often. Vapor snag is quite good in a prowess deck. Forked bolt is even better than in the stock build. I think you want to play 6-8 removal, but the exact mix is up to you.
- No Kolaghan's command maindeck: the card is of course great, but it's too expensive for this build. You want to cast as many spells per turn and finish the game as soon as possible. Command is perfect in the sideboard though for the grindy matchups.
Sideboard: heavily dependent on your meta of course, but the idea that you have two options for game 2: (i) board out threats and side in counters and removal: essential you are back to the stock build G2 (ii) be a more punishing prowess deck by boarding in discard and other cheap interactions. The first approach is best against fast decks, the second better against combo. I think this flexibility is great and is one of the advantages relative to the stock build, but I think the cost is that you are slightly worse G1 deck on average. Post-board games often feel so good though (expect burn of course...)
Just a few notes on specific cards:
- Discard is great, and preferred to counterspell given prowess/delve. The mix of thoughtseize/IoK/duress is up to you
- GR Tron is bad G1, but very good post board. Molten rain is great in this deck and comes in often.
- Jund is fine, G2 you have a lot of threats and commands
- Burn is still quite hard
Final comment: playing more burn or discard MD are also interesting options, if that's what you are looking for.
Thanks for the discussion, this board is great. Let me know if you have any questions/criticism.
My prediction (copied pasted from the source), we'll see how it pans out:
My prediction is that (i) sneak and show will replace omnitell, (ii) RUG/BUG delver will replace grixis delver; (iii) miracles will be a larger share of the winner's metagame.
I can also death & taxes and lands being better positioned now. Maybe Elves too, I'm not sure: they suffer against miracles.
Overally, I think this is good news for merfolk I'd say!
I have to think a bit about how to change my sideboard a bit (for instance, maybe spell pierce will make a come back)
I will go to four phantasmal image too, now that there are more sneak and show and less fork bolt. I think 3 relic is a must in the SB now that BUG/RUG is back.
I think Needle is a clean answer to Sword of Fire and Ice, but I don't think Stoneblade would run that. I'm always on the fence with regards to needle, sometimes it's the best draw, sometimes it's the worst.
I would definitely keep lords and cursecatcher. I think image and harbinger are cleary worse in this matchups.
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
3 Harbinger of the Tides
3 Phantasmal Image
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Force of Will
Sideboard:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Flusterstorm
3 Swan Song
3 Wasteland
2 Dismember
I like how pretty the mainboard is The sideboard is still way up in the air.
Just an update, I played 5-6 fresh new games vs Jeskai Stoneblade today. The match was way closer, I was not steamrolled at all or I ground out wins. The sample is super small of course but I'll explain the strategy:
I sided out all the artifacts this time around:
-4 Chalice of the Void (probably okay but removing all artifacts made his artifact removal dead in his deck)
-4 Aether Vial (just dead in this attrition match up)
-2 Umezawa's Jitte (Hard to get online when he's killing each creature one at a time. Also mana intensive)
In:
+2 Relic of Progenitus (you can crack in response to removal)
+2 Dismember
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Swan Song
+3 Wastelands (The most unexpected game changer. Either he plays duals, which in unavoidable sometimes, or he fetches basics. The Basics made my opponent's entire game plan way less flexible. For example U,U,W,R cannot even cast Supreme Verdict but he'll want double blue for Dig Through Time or casting multiple cantrips in the same turn. Wastelanding lands helped prevent him from hard casting Batterskull or Supreme Verdict. The threat of being Wastelanded slowed my opponent's game plan to our speed.)
I could be wrong about removing Chalice as he's still playing Pyroblast, Swords to Plowshares, Brainstorm, Ponder, and Bolt. It just felt so bad when he had an answer to it every game, or could Dig Through Time for one. Therefore I preferred to leave my opponent with dead cards in the deck.
Just throwing it out there for critique. Plus maybe people can give me some better sideboard ideas. My sideboard for example might not be balanced overall for the Legacy metagame for all I know. I'm also coming around to trying out Echoing Truth but it needs to be a 2x or I'm not going to bother with it
Glad to see you're getting more involved in Legacy
Some comments on your sideboard:
- with sneak and show gone, flusterstorm is much better than swan song. Easy swap IMO.
- given how the metagame evolved in the past year, I would also replace 1 cage by the 3rd relic. Relic is great agains DRS/goyf and Lands and better against Storm, and you want to draw as many copies as possible. Cage is only better against Elves and Dredge, and I feel that has become too narrow.
- i have to agree with fanattic, I don't think all these wasteland are worth it in the SB. I think the effect is powerful enough to deserve a couple of slots in the MD, but it's really just a tool to beat some cards, not an alternative plan. If you play 4 vial main, you can afford to play 2 wastelands out of your 21 lands (hmm, actually if you play that many harbinger, maybe you can afford to play only one...)
Given you build, I'd play 4 Cavern, 4 mutavault, 1 wasteland and 12 islands. And 4 vials please with all these harbingers :)!
I personally really like to fit 2 cliques in the 75: it's great against stoneforge, it's greats against show and tell, and it's great against miracles. This card is just so much better in Legacy than in Modern.
My two cents on how to SB vs stoneblade:
- I think you are over-boarding. I would keep all four chalice, I like it much better than swan song or flusterstorm. I would board out 1 image, 1 force for 2 dismember, and 1 jitte for 1 relic (maybe a second, but 3 feels like to much for me with chalice). Good sideboard cards in this matchup are cliques and venser: threats + distruption is exactly what they don't want to see.
Also, in Legacy, you want to keep Vial much more often post board than in Modern (I sometimes board out 1, max 2 in extreme circumstances - boarding out all of them is completely out of the question). It's because, relative to other decks, our deck is SO MUCH MORE clunky in this format. Even against control decks like stoneblade, we need vial to keep up with their flurry of one mana spells. Vial is our chance to play more than 1 spell per turn. Again, play four in the maindeck...
thank you!
by the way, just to be clear that hand G2 was definitely a keep! I just wanted to say that it would have been better if one of the chalice or the Fow was a cursecatcher/image instead
And I definitely agree that fighting over terminus during the game is often correct (as you said in particular to protect TNN), I was commenting about the post-board strategy ex-ante: that, on average, I'd rather have a threat than a force in hand. But hard casting FOW on a terminus is amazing!
Thanks L0rdAceX for the videos! It's great to see some matches, I think it's very useful and entertaining for all us
I hope you don't mind getting some "negative" comments such as "I would have done X/Y instead", etc. You play pretty well, and it's a great way to debate opinions, plays and card choice. I think we can all learn a lot from your videos!
Some comments on the Miracles match:
1. First, I thought the same as fanattic: I would have Forced the turn 1 top. It's just so hard to loose a game when they don't have top in play... I'm generally not in favor in keeping all Fow post-board (more on this below), but if I do it's for Turn 1 Top, or hard cast it later on Mentor or Terminus. Nevertheless, forcing the first mentor was key so your play probably was better in that game.
2. I don't think you want to take the pyroclasm if you're going to chalice for 2 on the next turn, you're giving him a card for free...
3. I have a different opinion on sideboarding in this matchup. I don't claim it's necessary superior, but this is what I would have done in your case: In: +1 Relic, +1 Needle, +1 Venser, +2 Dismember; Out: -2 Fow, -1 Jitte, -1 Echoing truth, -1 Island. My reasoning: He's playing Bonanni miraclss, so he probably has 4 mentor, 2 snap, 2 DTT and zero entreat. Relic is fine, but 1 is probably enough with only a pair of snapcaster. Dismember is very good, as it makes it hard to race with mentor. Venser is great as it can remand terminus, save a guy from swords, etc. I think it's much better than echoing truth when they don't play entreat. Needle is a fine answer to top. In terms of what to take out, I'm a big proponent of keeping the threat density very high. Clunky hands with a lot of reactive cards is the main way to loose. For instance your hand G2 wasn't great, and fortunately you drew out of it! This is why I don't board out any creatures and just swap some reactive cards for the more efficient answers we're bringing in. I think 3 chalice is enough, it's very good but the second one is quite bad, and the first one is not always better than a threat. I generally think that fighting over terminus is unnecessary: just play two guys at a time and they'll eventually run out of sweepers. I would keep the island on the play however.
Since some people are curious about an Abbot/tempo build, I figured I shared my list.
Just to be clear: I don't think this approach is necessarily better than the "stock" list, it's more of a different take on the archetype. The goal is to be more aggressive and kill your opponent while he/she still has many cards in hand, as opposed the more midrange shell that is better at grinding. I just want to emphasize that this implies building the deck quite differently (and some card choices might seem "heretical" from the point of view of the stock list!). Again, not saying it's better, just different.
My current list (apologies I'm not familiar with the deck templating tool, but I'll fix this soon):
Creatures (18)
4 Delver of secretes
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Gurmag Angler
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Abbot of Keral Keep
Spells (24)
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
1 Terminate
1 Dismember
4 Vapor Snag
Lands (18)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
1 Mountain
Sideboard (15)
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Spell Pierce
1 Negate
1 Dispel
2 Molten Rain
2 Dragon's Claw
1 Go for the throat
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kolaghan's command
Difference with the stock list:
- More creatures: I play no pyromancer, but instead added 6 Prowess guys. Swiftspear is at the core of the deck, there is now 8 one drops to guarantee a fast start. You can beat many fair decks but curving swiftspear into a flow of cantrips and removal. Abbot is good here, but not incredible, I don't really like more than 2. But prowess creatures combo with other prowess creatures, and I think he's much better in this deck than YP, as we're not interested in blocking and he is better in combat. Also, I don't think you should hesitate to play him turn 2 if you need a threat: think of the ETB ability as a bonus to mitigate flooding, or that makes him a fine topdeck in the late game. Also, running more creatures means that delver flips less often (but also you need him to flip slightly less).
- No counterspell: I currently play none but could see adding 2 (instead of 2 removal spell). The reason I don't run any at the moment, is that (given my meta) it's not clear to me what is the best among spell pierce, remand, mana leak, dispel, spell snare. But if you know which on you want, you should definitely run a couple. My current frontrunner is spell pierce (I actually like remand much less in this build). Playing a few Abbot is not a reason to not play a couple of those, the ETB interaction doesn't come too often. You don't want to play more than 2 counters MD though, as they are a nombo with prowess.
The general philosophy of deck building is to run more creatures and less counterspells. This combination is what makes the deck work: (i) when you have more threats, you don't need counters as much to protect; and (ii) prowess creatures are good with other prowess creatures, but not with counterspells. This is tempo deck: if you like to keep mana up, then this is not the deck for you
- Mana base: this is close to a UR delver build with a black splash. You don't need black early, so you don't play swamp. You have fewer black cards, so that blood moon is actually quite bad about you. None of my opponents ever bring it in. I'm still working on the exact mix of non basics though.
- Removal package: Because black is a splash you play fewer terminates. Dismember can be cast for 1, which comes up relatively often. Vapor snag is quite good in a prowess deck. Forked bolt is even better than in the stock build. I think you want to play 6-8 removal, but the exact mix is up to you.
- No Kolaghan's command maindeck: the card is of course great, but it's too expensive for this build. You want to cast as many spells per turn and finish the game as soon as possible. Command is perfect in the sideboard though for the grindy matchups.
Sideboard: heavily dependent on your meta of course, but the idea that you have two options for game 2: (i) board out threats and side in counters and removal: essential you are back to the stock build G2 (ii) be a more punishing prowess deck by boarding in discard and other cheap interactions. The first approach is best against fast decks, the second better against combo. I think this flexibility is great and is one of the advantages relative to the stock build, but I think the cost is that you are slightly worse G1 deck on average. Post-board games often feel so good though (expect burn of course...)
Just a few notes on specific cards:
- Discard is great, and preferred to counterspell given prowess/delve. The mix of thoughtseize/IoK/duress is up to you
- GR Tron is bad G1, but very good post board. Molten rain is great in this deck and comes in often.
- Jund is fine, G2 you have a lot of threats and commands
- Burn is still quite hard
Final comment: playing more burn or discard MD are also interesting options, if that's what you are looking for.
Thanks for the discussion, this board is great. Let me know if you have any questions/criticism.
Cheers!
My prediction is that (i) sneak and show will replace omnitell, (ii) RUG/BUG delver will replace grixis delver; (iii) miracles will be a larger share of the winner's metagame.
I can also death & taxes and lands being better positioned now. Maybe Elves too, I'm not sure: they suffer against miracles.
Overally, I think this is good news for merfolk I'd say!
I have to think a bit about how to change my sideboard a bit (for instance, maybe spell pierce will make a come back)
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8158-Deck-Merfolk/page384
I will go to four phantasmal image too, now that there are more sneak and show and less fork bolt. I think 3 relic is a must in the SB now that BUG/RUG is back.
I would definitely keep lords and cursecatcher. I think image and harbinger are cleary worse in this matchups.
Glad to see you're getting more involved in Legacy
Some comments on your sideboard:
- with sneak and show gone, flusterstorm is much better than swan song. Easy swap IMO.
- given how the metagame evolved in the past year, I would also replace 1 cage by the 3rd relic. Relic is great agains DRS/goyf and Lands and better against Storm, and you want to draw as many copies as possible. Cage is only better against Elves and Dredge, and I feel that has become too narrow.
- i have to agree with fanattic, I don't think all these wasteland are worth it in the SB. I think the effect is powerful enough to deserve a couple of slots in the MD, but it's really just a tool to beat some cards, not an alternative plan. If you play 4 vial main, you can afford to play 2 wastelands out of your 21 lands (hmm, actually if you play that many harbinger, maybe you can afford to play only one...)
Given you build, I'd play 4 Cavern, 4 mutavault, 1 wasteland and 12 islands. And 4 vials please with all these harbingers :)!
I personally really like to fit 2 cliques in the 75: it's great against stoneforge, it's greats against show and tell, and it's great against miracles. This card is just so much better in Legacy than in Modern.
My two cents on how to SB vs stoneblade:
- I think you are over-boarding. I would keep all four chalice, I like it much better than swan song or flusterstorm. I would board out 1 image, 1 force for 2 dismember, and 1 jitte for 1 relic (maybe a second, but 3 feels like to much for me with chalice). Good sideboard cards in this matchup are cliques and venser: threats + distruption is exactly what they don't want to see.
Also, in Legacy, you want to keep Vial much more often post board than in Modern (I sometimes board out 1, max 2 in extreme circumstances - boarding out all of them is completely out of the question). It's because, relative to other decks, our deck is SO MUCH MORE clunky in this format. Even against control decks like stoneblade, we need vial to keep up with their flurry of one mana spells. Vial is our chance to play more than 1 spell per turn. Again, play four in the maindeck...
by the way, just to be clear that hand G2 was definitely a keep! I just wanted to say that it would have been better if one of the chalice or the Fow was a cursecatcher/image instead
And I definitely agree that fighting over terminus during the game is often correct (as you said in particular to protect TNN), I was commenting about the post-board strategy ex-ante: that, on average, I'd rather have a threat than a force in hand. But hard casting FOW on a terminus is amazing!
I hope you don't mind getting some "negative" comments such as "I would have done X/Y instead", etc. You play pretty well, and it's a great way to debate opinions, plays and card choice. I think we can all learn a lot from your videos!
Some comments on the Miracles match:
1. First, I thought the same as fanattic: I would have Forced the turn 1 top. It's just so hard to loose a game when they don't have top in play... I'm generally not in favor in keeping all Fow post-board (more on this below), but if I do it's for Turn 1 Top, or hard cast it later on Mentor or Terminus. Nevertheless, forcing the first mentor was key so your play probably was better in that game.
2. I don't think you want to take the pyroclasm if you're going to chalice for 2 on the next turn, you're giving him a card for free...
3. I have a different opinion on sideboarding in this matchup. I don't claim it's necessary superior, but this is what I would have done in your case: In: +1 Relic, +1 Needle, +1 Venser, +2 Dismember; Out: -2 Fow, -1 Jitte, -1 Echoing truth, -1 Island. My reasoning: He's playing Bonanni miraclss, so he probably has 4 mentor, 2 snap, 2 DTT and zero entreat. Relic is fine, but 1 is probably enough with only a pair of snapcaster. Dismember is very good, as it makes it hard to race with mentor. Venser is great as it can remand terminus, save a guy from swords, etc. I think it's much better than echoing truth when they don't play entreat. Needle is a fine answer to top. In terms of what to take out, I'm a big proponent of keeping the threat density very high. Clunky hands with a lot of reactive cards is the main way to loose. For instance your hand G2 wasn't great, and fortunately you drew out of it! This is why I don't board out any creatures and just swap some reactive cards for the more efficient answers we're bringing in. I think 3 chalice is enough, it's very good but the second one is quite bad, and the first one is not always better than a threat. I generally think that fighting over terminus is unnecessary: just play two guys at a time and they'll eventually run out of sweepers. I would keep the island on the play however.
thanks again for sharing!