Indeed I didn't get where do you see the low power of manaelves, which i find of great value in all kind of decks, ramping in good stuffs very early.
I'd ask you to point out some unclear things too.
For sure it's the same as Sonic Burst, but I do think that you include some cards that I would categorize as underpowered and well performing only in a constructed. I make few random exemples:
Looking to your list I also have the feeling that you didn't bother of mana costs, since you do have a huge number of double specific spells. doesn't it lower down the power and the available archetypes? the first impression i got was that only aggro is supported, heavly, in all colors
I suppose this philosphy of highlander decks (which i really like) is the reason why you include many reprints and archetypes I'd never cube like the reanimator stuffs. We are talking about the tier1 cube, but isn't this another choice that strongly limitate the archetypes?
where do you find those top tier highlander decks that you are talking about?
- Regarding the manaelves. If you want to support Stompy, there is no room for manadudes. What do you want to support with them in the first place? Aggro? Then 3/3 for G is much better than 1/1. Control? Doesnt want them either. What do you want to ramp in anyway? The 2 drops are almost as good as the 3 drops and at 4 or 5 the curve ends. There are a bunch of 2drop manadudes, if you want to ramp 2 to 4.
Manaelves are awful topdecks.
- Steppe Lynx no fetches, worst topdeck ever. Fast aggro is deeper in red. Veteran Armorer close call, hes borderline. Does nothing on its own, though. WingcrafterDoes nothing on its own, too. Delver is the better guy. Forge DevilIsnt as flexible as Fanatic and hurts yourself, wtf. Wild Dogs What do you want? Aggro or Durdlemode? Dogs are way wose than ogre.
- I wouldnt recommend drafting to many double cost in 2 different colors. Well, somehow the cards had to be balanced after all. But its no problem to draft deeper into a specific color and splash the other. Since every card is playable. And the meta still slower than constructed environment.
-What is aggro, what is control? Control usually uses more spells and wins the attrition war. It still wants some meat. 40% of the cube are spells. Aggro wants to race with efficient creatures or burn. Draft it as you pleased
-Well there is no real nostalgic reason why to include certain cards. At first the cube started like this, but after A Lot! of internet crawling, evaluating, discussions and playtesting almost every card has its use in specific decks.
Dont forget, there is always a Meta inside the Cube, every Cube has its own Tier1 decks. Compare it to Block Constructed. But the cube offers a lot of different decks, and draft is very dynamic anyway.
My playgroup is playing 100card Pauper Highlander for a while now, so we know a lot of interactions and possible archetypes. After each draft we evaluate the meta and archetypes.
EDIT: Looking better to your list, I must admit I definitelly love how you avoid to include classical cards. There are almost no manaelves, looters or tappers, but not even pingers or bouncers.
Were talking about the real Tier1 Meta. Ever seen those in constructed play much? There is a reason why certain cards were played. You dont want that "kiddygamepattern" of wotc´s modern limited.
2/1 evasion guys that cant block are crap. Maybe theyre good in standard limited (~150 common pool), but you cant compare that to a cube-meta where you have over 5000 cards to chose from and build a meta with.
Same goes with Looters. If you have a bunch of filler cards you want to get rid off theyre good. In enhanced cube-decks? Not so much.
Next thing, the green curve. Why playing 7cc 5 power guys, when you can get 5 power for 4cc? Its absurd to include such high casting cost creatures, especially when they die to 1or2cc black removal. In other words, you want Juzám Djinn, not Craw Wurm
With such high cc-cards you need to play more lands, which decreases consistency which leads to more low-power stuff like the looters and manaelves. Which then leads to slower games, where other low-power cards gain value. Like the white tappers.
In my cube, most games are over before you even reach 7 lands. And if you flood, you want to use them as an alternative resource anyway (retrace, sacrifice etc.)
The multicolor allocation: Too bad WotC didnt print a balanced pool, but thats not my fault. By artificially spreading the meta-pool youll have to include "Tier2" cards or exclude Tier1 cards. And to be honest, youll never notice during the draft anyway, since its probably 10 cards. The alternative options wont fit the archetypes anyway. Simic for example is usually the hexproof/aura deck.
I know you (~15) guys here agreed, that emulating current standard limited enviroments is the way to go, but thats not Tier1 in the end.
My take is building 40-60 card "highlander" pauper archetype decks and hide them in the cube. Im sure if you´d play my cube, you´d notice the much higher powerlevel. The archetypes are pretty balanced so far and balancing is the reason why I did include Sonic Burst over Searing Spear for example, since you have to get rid off an early Nivix Cyclops asap. (midgame it turns a land into an extra damage or activates hellbent. 4dmg>3dmg for cc2 - Id call that more powerful.
Voltaic Key and Titania are very different kinds. If you want to support a tribal/XY matters theme you should really devote a lot of cards to it. (Id say 10% at least)
Imho its no problem to have cards, that need another to work with. Its the drafters choice/skill to pick them and you need filler anyway.
Im running 13 artifacts only in my cube. I dont think its such a big loss, if you give colorspecific alternatives. But auras are worse, thats for sure.
Is ir was this card played in constructed? (legacy, modern, extended, pauper, standard)
Was it a centerpiece of former decks?
Was it a limited bomb?
Is it outstanding in its manacost to powerlevel?
Has it synergies with cards already added?
Does it fit in an archetype?
How is the overall value?
Has it special cube abilities?
Yeah, to bad goldcards arent balanced in pauperenvironment. But there arent any better. Honestly white is pretty weak too.
Ok thats some solid arguments. Since Im going to get all your higher rated cards anyway to put them into the T1 or a Tier2 cube, Ill test a configuration with all your cubables at one point.
Well Bounce and the Drake has its downside, yeah. But if the Drake got bounced you can get multiple CIP effects from the removed creature. So it evens out.
But the point about aggressive decks mediocre to midrange or control is in my theory only a problem, when you put a high curve into the cube. Since 2/3 are 1 and 2 drops, fast decks really work.
In our last drafts, Boros was very successful and utilized the white 1 drops real good.
Also MonoG Stompy eats all the slower midrange decks, exept when they can live to the midgame. This is where cards like Black Cat etc help to stabilze. Correctly drafted and build, you only need 9 lands to run it + Land Grant. RG might be the even more powerful version.
UR Tempo is also sick and quick.
Slower decks just get burned away, after getting hit a few times by lowdrops
A higher creature count isnt my taste either. The slots are really crammed, and I dont want to cut strong spells for borderline creatures. Especially in red and blue. And a decent control deck, can run a very low creature count, when it has enough removal.
Also I aim for aggrodecks like Canadian, which runs low on creatures and uses it spells to protect them or disturb the opp
What curve do you suggest? Right now:
My attempt here is to have constructed like decks and curves, where at CC4 the finisher are cast.
Im running more creatures than spells
As helpful as I find your evaluation to find interesting cards, I didnt know, I must say, I dont agree with a lot of ratings you did there. As I said before.
For example almost all 2 drops in black you rate cubable are awful in my view. Wretched Anurid for example, or Basilica Screecher. Yet you rate solid control creatures like Black Cat and Ravenous Rats as bad.
Also the question is, if you want/need every color to theoretically work as monocolored aggro. I dont think thats needed.
Also its not that easy to rate cards in a vacuum, since synergies can increase or decrease cardvalue a lot. Like the Borderpost and Drake. Or my attempt to make the MonoG Stompy deck playable. (Jungle Lion and Wild Dogs I find awful, too)
I absolutely dont say this version of the cube is the final list, many more evenings we need to draft and test cards, but I think Im on a good way. And this thread helps me to re-evaluate cards, even if im not going to cut them asap
Tron is in testing mode. And its fun to have it in, because of the gamble to pick them. But the risk vs reward is ok I think. Once you assemble it, Buyback becomes insane.
Boggle is really good in the hexproof/shroud/aura deck, so it stays. The Zeppelid could be added, but Im not sold when you can get 3/4 Flying for 3 and Trample is useless. Evasive Power should/can be equal to the CC.
Yearling vs Legionaire is debatable. You think the Gob is that much better?
Only card Id use from Theros is Read the Bones, but I prefer U draw and B discard actually. Dont know what to cut btw. The Eidolon is out, Ill update this the next days. Mondays is our draftday.
ok AL, ive read your stuff and you did a really good job there. I dont agree to all your rankings, though. For example you rate the black control creatures to low.
But well yeah, I guess 300 of 360 are "staples" in most cubes and the rest is personal flavor.
- Regarding the manaelves. If you want to support Stompy, there is no room for manadudes. What do you want to support with them in the first place? Aggro? Then 3/3 for G is much better than 1/1. Control? Doesnt want them either. What do you want to ramp in anyway? The 2 drops are almost as good as the 3 drops and at 4 or 5 the curve ends. There are a bunch of 2drop manadudes, if you want to ramp 2 to 4.
Manaelves are awful topdecks.
- Steppe Lynx no fetches, worst topdeck ever. Fast aggro is deeper in red.
Veteran Armorer close call, hes borderline. Does nothing on its own, though.
WingcrafterDoes nothing on its own, too. Delver is the better guy.
Forge DevilIsnt as flexible as Fanatic and hurts yourself, wtf.
Wild Dogs What do you want? Aggro or Durdlemode? Dogs are way wose than ogre.
- Benevolent Bodyguard counters revomal, makes creatures unblockable Are you really asking?
Benevolent Unicorn does something on its own, counters FlameJab, eats removal
Delver of SecretsIts Delver.. UR Tempo is heavily supported
Mogg Fanatic Flexible guy.
Ghazban Ogre Way better than Dogs
- I wouldnt recommend drafting to many double cost in 2 different colors. Well, somehow the cards had to be balanced after all. But its no problem to draft deeper into a specific color and splash the other. Since every card is playable. And the meta still slower than constructed environment.
-What is aggro, what is control? Control usually uses more spells and wins the attrition war. It still wants some meat. 40% of the cube are spells. Aggro wants to race with efficient creatures or burn. Draft it as you pleased
-Well there is no real nostalgic reason why to include certain cards. At first the cube started like this, but after A Lot! of internet crawling, evaluating, discussions and playtesting almost every card has its use in specific decks.
Dont forget, there is always a Meta inside the Cube, every Cube has its own Tier1 decks. Compare it to Block Constructed. But the cube offers a lot of different decks, and draft is very dynamic anyway.
My playgroup is playing 100card Pauper Highlander for a while now, so we know a lot of interactions and possible archetypes. After each draft we evaluate the meta and archetypes.
Were talking about the real Tier1 Meta. Ever seen those in constructed play much? There is a reason why certain cards were played. You dont want that "kiddygamepattern" of wotc´s modern limited.
2/1 evasion guys that cant block are crap. Maybe theyre good in standard limited (~150 common pool), but you cant compare that to a cube-meta where you have over 5000 cards to chose from and build a meta with.
Same goes with Looters. If you have a bunch of filler cards you want to get rid off theyre good. In enhanced cube-decks? Not so much.
Next thing, the green curve. Why playing 7cc 5 power guys, when you can get 5 power for 4cc? Its absurd to include such high casting cost creatures, especially when they die to 1or2cc black removal. In other words, you want Juzám Djinn, not Craw Wurm
With such high cc-cards you need to play more lands, which decreases consistency which leads to more low-power stuff like the looters and manaelves. Which then leads to slower games, where other low-power cards gain value. Like the white tappers.
In my cube, most games are over before you even reach 7 lands. And if you flood, you want to use them as an alternative resource anyway (retrace, sacrifice etc.)
The multicolor allocation: Too bad WotC didnt print a balanced pool, but thats not my fault. By artificially spreading the meta-pool youll have to include "Tier2" cards or exclude Tier1 cards. And to be honest, youll never notice during the draft anyway, since its probably 10 cards. The alternative options wont fit the archetypes anyway. Simic for example is usually the hexproof/aura deck.
I know you (~15) guys here agreed, that emulating current standard limited enviroments is the way to go, but thats not Tier1 in the end.
My take is building 40-60 card "highlander" pauper archetype decks and hide them in the cube. Im sure if you´d play my cube, you´d notice the much higher powerlevel. The archetypes are pretty balanced so far and balancing is the reason why I did include Sonic Burst over Searing Spear for example, since you have to get rid off an early Nivix Cyclops asap. (midgame it turns a land into an extra damage or activates hellbent. 4dmg>3dmg for cc2 - Id call that more powerful.
Multicolor section cant be balanced though.
I want to include Reckless Charge, what to cut in red? Can be a creature (not Flailing Soldier ;))
Imho its no problem to have cards, that need another to work with. Its the drafters choice/skill to pick them and you need filler anyway.
all Retrace Spells
persist
2/2
common
Is ir was this card played in constructed? (legacy, modern, extended, pauper, standard)
Was it a centerpiece of former decks?
Was it a limited bomb?
Is it outstanding in its manacost to powerlevel?
Has it synergies with cards already added?
Does it fit in an archetype?
How is the overall value?
Has it special cube abilities?
Yeah, to bad goldcards arent balanced in pauperenvironment. But there arent any better. Honestly white is pretty weak too.
Sample decks:
I changed some other cards already too. Here is the actual list:
http://cubetutor.com/home/4632
Well Bounce and the Drake has its downside, yeah. But if the Drake got bounced you can get multiple CIP effects from the removed creature. So it evens out.
But the point about aggressive decks mediocre to midrange or control is in my theory only a problem, when you put a high curve into the cube. Since 2/3 are 1 and 2 drops, fast decks really work.
In our last drafts, Boros was very successful and utilized the white 1 drops real good.
Also MonoG Stompy eats all the slower midrange decks, exept when they can live to the midgame. This is where cards like Black Cat etc help to stabilze. Correctly drafted and build, you only need 9 lands to run it + Land Grant. RG might be the even more powerful version.
UR Tempo is also sick and quick.
Slower decks just get burned away, after getting hit a few times by lowdrops
A higher creature count isnt my taste either. The slots are really crammed, and I dont want to cut strong spells for borderline creatures. Especially in red and blue. And a decent control deck, can run a very low creature count, when it has enough removal.
Also I aim for aggrodecks like Canadian, which runs low on creatures and uses it spells to protect them or disturb the opp
My attempt here is to have constructed like decks and curves, where at CC4 the finisher are cast.
Im running more creatures than spells
As helpful as I find your evaluation to find interesting cards, I didnt know, I must say, I dont agree with a lot of ratings you did there. As I said before.
For example almost all 2 drops in black you rate cubable are awful in my view. Wretched Anurid for example, or Basilica Screecher. Yet you rate solid control creatures like Black Cat and Ravenous Rats as bad.
Also the question is, if you want/need every color to theoretically work as monocolored aggro. I dont think thats needed.
Also its not that easy to rate cards in a vacuum, since synergies can increase or decrease cardvalue a lot. Like the Borderpost and Drake. Or my attempt to make the MonoG Stompy deck playable. (Jungle Lion and Wild Dogs I find awful, too)
I absolutely dont say this version of the cube is the final list, many more evenings we need to draft and test cards, but I think Im on a good way. And this thread helps me to re-evaluate cards, even if im not going to cut them asap
True, Borderpost work like the Gates on the early turns, but can also ramp if you want it and have nice synergies with Rebound
Yeah, I was thinking about the Guildgates, but in Aggrodecks I really dont like them. The Panoramas at least dont come into play tapped.
I tried Drake, but it wasnt good, since I run good amount of bounce in blue. Wormfang Drake is the only one that stays.
I did cut Gobhobbler Rats for Legionnaire now. I dont mind some imbalance on the multicolors and I think Yearling is better than the Rats.
Boggle is really good in the hexproof/shroud/aura deck, so it stays. The Zeppelid could be added, but Im not sold when you can get 3/4 Flying for 3 and Trample is useless. Evasive Power should/can be equal to the CC.
Yearling vs Legionaire is debatable. You think the Gob is that much better?
Only card Id use from Theros is Read the Bones, but I prefer U draw and B discard actually. Dont know what to cut btw. The Eidolon is out, Ill update this the next days. Mondays is our draftday.
But well yeah, I guess 300 of 360 are "staples" in most cubes and the rest is personal flavor.