I have a question for those of you who've been playing the deck for a while: Turn 1 you Faithless Looting, bin a Griselbrand and you have a Goryo's Vengeance in your hand. They go, do something irrelevant and then it's your turn.
Do you:
a) Play another land, Goryo's and combo off.
b) Play a land, pass the turn, Goryo's on their end step, and combo off in your next turn (so you have more mana available).
I find that I get this decision quite a bit. Sometimes it's with Through the Breach instead (which is even trickier because it often involves using a mana monkey, but waiting to their end step usually means taking more damage).
Thoughts?
It really depends on your opponent and the texture of your hand. It can be good to go for it while you know they won’t be able to interact. With full life, you will almost certainly get there or set yourself up to get there next turn. If you have a shoal or a Wurm in hand things get even better. But, if your opponent is on a deck without discard, counters or aggression (what terrible deck is this?) waiting to do it on their end step gets you more mana and virtually guarantees a win the followng turn. This same type of decision comes up all the time and gets more complicated as the game goes longer. Life totals dip, your opponent plays more cards and has more mana, etc etc. It’s usually right to go for it sooner rather than later, but definitely not always the case.
It’s more likely to be a good idea to wait until end step if you’re using ttb, especially early. To ttb on turn 2, you’re using 3 sources of fast mana, which doesn’t leave you much to finish them off. Without enough fast mana you won’t be able to get Borbo in play, which means you’re probably setting up for the next turn anyway.
Of course a breached Wurm on 2 is pretty great against any deck.
I’m very intrigued by this Fateful Showdown list, but am very hesitant to give up the shoal package and the splice. At least it has an instant speed win, though. I am unwilling to play most of the non-shoal versions because having to use the combat step is too much of a liability. I’m not sure this list is better, but it has some potential and I always want a new version to be unstoppable. You could even do a hybrid and put a Showdown in place of the cathartic or the second Borbo to give emergency removal or direct damage against thngs like shadow.
I have often wanted to play Children of Korlis, but splashing white never seemed worth it. And even if you do splash white, having it available on the combo turn seems difficult. In theory you could basically have the lifegain of the shoal package for half the cards. Of course you also lose the splice and ttb Wurm options. If I were splashing white anyway (as you are, Spooly) I would certainly give it a shot. Seems easy enough to keep up a white if you are winning after turn 2, or find room for some Manamorphose.
Maybe splashing for another color is more attractive if blood moon is no longer well-positioned and burn/hyper-aggro dies down. Blue has some powerful options.
I’ve alwsys hated cathartic in the shoal version. You almost never have two cards you want to pitch. Currently I have 1 axe, 1 brutality and a tormenting voice. I’ve been meaning to try insolent neonate. It would be nice to have a discard outlet waiting around until you know if you will ttb or Goryo. Also a blocker could be nice. I think I’ll give it a shot.
Im also curious about dampening sphere. If it gets played a lot, it will be very annoying. Thalia was already a concern and this will have a similar effect. We can an play more EE, shattering spree or even abrade if we need to (abrade may already be something we should consider.) My guess is that it won’t get as much play as people think for very long. The decks it’s good against are already prepared for artifact based hate, so it’s not lights out but rather a speed bump.
If Torgaar had evasion, I think that version would be good. But, I’m guessing as a ground pounder it will be too easy for it to be a very complicated burn spell.
Anyway, I love how this group is always looking st new ideas, but trying them and vetting them before blindly praising whatever the new thing is.
Vizier can be difficult, especially if the have scooze and/or rip. They can be similarly fast and have multiple hate pieces (snooze, rip, eidolon, etc) and chord to find them. They also have path for a breached Wurm.
That being said, it is not as bad a some matchups. I love lightning axe in the matchup as well as the sweepers. Most of their hate, as well as their wincons, are creature based. EE is also good on 2 if you’re running it.
Very intriguing. I think it’s not going to do enough, but this seems to be a natural fit with Goryo’s Vengeance. Even if it were an instant it might find a way to be playable, but sorcery plus 5cmc is probably too high a bar to clear.
I suppose gifts ungiven plus unburial rites is already just better
Yeah, I like dropping chalice for leyline in the current meta. I think. I'll have to try out grave Titan, sounds fun. I also was intrigued by the rabblemaster in the board of a recent 5:0 list. I think I still like Moon for control, Jund and all the greedy 4c nonsense people are trying now. I also still don't love csthsrtic and probably put a brutality main, but that's just my preference.
Grave Titan might be fun. Of course it isn't indestructible. You're right that people still leave in terminate and path and such, so a creature board doesn't catch people completely offguard.
I might try hazoret sometime. I like it being indestructible and wins through a bridge and leyline of sanctity, but you're right that we don't want to be empty handed most of the time, so attacking is not as likely as I'd like it to be. I'll try it out one of these day just to see.
What do you guys think of Hazoret as a slow enabler and altnerste wincon for the grindy matchups? There's a lot of decks that can't beat that card, or only beat it with Liliana, which most people cut against us because making us discard is dangerous.
I might be getting too cute, but if eel like it might have promise if it's not too slow.
So, wow, bbe and Jace? Crazy!
Anyone see thee meta changing in a way that changes what we do? I still don't think we want to splash blue for Jace or anything, although, those grixis and esper Goryos lists might be fun with Jace. So far too early to tell what people are going to do, but more pact of negation and maybe leyline over Chalice might make sense if everyone is gonna play discard and Jace.
I was gonna work on a sb guide, up never finished it. It's hard since so many people has different boards. Final nub had a quick guide a few pages back.
Personally I don't like hugs at all. I like tormenting voice better. I should try sign in blood. The worry is with how much life you lose.
So if you had to make the mana base without fetches how would you do it?
I'd probably start by maxing blood crypts and maybe another basic or two. I guess it depends what your starting point is. I'd probably do something like:
4 temple
4 crypt
3 blackcleave
5 swamp
2 mountain
1 Geier reach
Or maybe drop a blackcleave and crypt/Geier for one of each basic depending if you like Geier reach in the deck. It also depends if you're playing bloodmoon since the fetches help you get basic swamp. You could also use other black fetches and just take more damage when you have to shock a crypt more often.
Overreact and destroy one of the best metagames they ever had? No. If something shows as "to dominant" at the PT they either will do nothing at the BR update or make an unban, which could harm that "dominant" deck.
Greetings,
Kathal
I completely agree that is what they should do, but think gds has had enough ban talk in the past that a dominant performance could easily provoke an over-reaction by wizards. The wording in their b&r was scary to me and they have been known to make stupid decisions.
I'd agree. It's probably at its lowest chance of being banned in awhile. No other decks are oppressively abusing ssg and Grishoalbrand hasn't done anything high profile in awhile.
I'm a bit worried about the wording of the b&r announcement referencing modern today, but Grishoalbrand is low on my list of worries. Unless they make a huge change to the format and ban all fast mana or something, I think Gris is relatively safe for now. I think gds, storm, Tron or mox opal are a lot more likely to get a ban. Or also decently likely that something gets unbanned.
To be honest, they can only increase the power level of Modern by big changes, cause otherwise they will lose the playbase (they would need to ban so many cards, from Mox Opal to SSG, from Death's Shadow to Valakut, from Urza Tron to Lantern of Insight, from Cranial Plating to Grapeshot,...). Hence, I'm not worried at all regarding this ^^
Greetings,
Kathal
I hope you're right. But if any of those are too dominant at the pt, im afraid they might overreact.
Honestly, I would rather have looting than chalice currently. I suppose gds is seeing a rise in popularity but still, I don't really like dropping looting for chalice. I also don't really like going 3 color for a version that doesn't guarantee a win when you get a fatty in play. If you have good success, or want to tell me why I'm wrong, I'd be happy to listen.
The deck in general has always a risk of getting banned, due to the nature of it. However, currently it doesn't violate any terms which would lead to a ban, so there is basically "no" risk there.
Greetings,
Kathal
I'd agree. It's probably at its lowest chance of being banned in awhile. No other decks are oppressively abusing ssg and Grishoalbrand hasn't done anything high profile in awhile.
I'm a bit worried about the wording of the b&r announcement referencing modern today, but Grishoalbrand is low on my list of worries. Unless they make a huge change to the format and ban all fast mana or something, I think Gris is relatively safe for now. I think gds, storm, Tron or mox opal are a lot more likely to get a ban. Or also decently likely that something gets unbanned.
It really depends on your opponent and the texture of your hand. It can be good to go for it while you know they won’t be able to interact. With full life, you will almost certainly get there or set yourself up to get there next turn. If you have a shoal or a Wurm in hand things get even better. But, if your opponent is on a deck without discard, counters or aggression (what terrible deck is this?) waiting to do it on their end step gets you more mana and virtually guarantees a win the followng turn. This same type of decision comes up all the time and gets more complicated as the game goes longer. Life totals dip, your opponent plays more cards and has more mana, etc etc. It’s usually right to go for it sooner rather than later, but definitely not always the case.
It’s more likely to be a good idea to wait until end step if you’re using ttb, especially early. To ttb on turn 2, you’re using 3 sources of fast mana, which doesn’t leave you much to finish them off. Without enough fast mana you won’t be able to get Borbo in play, which means you’re probably setting up for the next turn anyway.
Of course a breached Wurm on 2 is pretty great against any deck.
I’m very intrigued by this Fateful Showdown list, but am very hesitant to give up the shoal package and the splice. At least it has an instant speed win, though. I am unwilling to play most of the non-shoal versions because having to use the combat step is too much of a liability. I’m not sure this list is better, but it has some potential and I always want a new version to be unstoppable. You could even do a hybrid and put a Showdown in place of the cathartic or the second Borbo to give emergency removal or direct damage against thngs like shadow.
I have often wanted to play Children of Korlis, but splashing white never seemed worth it. And even if you do splash white, having it available on the combo turn seems difficult. In theory you could basically have the lifegain of the shoal package for half the cards. Of course you also lose the splice and ttb Wurm options. If I were splashing white anyway (as you are, Spooly) I would certainly give it a shot. Seems easy enough to keep up a white if you are winning after turn 2, or find room for some Manamorphose.
Maybe splashing for another color is more attractive if blood moon is no longer well-positioned and burn/hyper-aggro dies down. Blue has some powerful options.
I’ve alwsys hated cathartic in the shoal version. You almost never have two cards you want to pitch. Currently I have 1 axe, 1 brutality and a tormenting voice. I’ve been meaning to try insolent neonate. It would be nice to have a discard outlet waiting around until you know if you will ttb or Goryo. Also a blocker could be nice. I think I’ll give it a shot.
Im also curious about dampening sphere. If it gets played a lot, it will be very annoying. Thalia was already a concern and this will have a similar effect. We can an play more EE, shattering spree or even abrade if we need to (abrade may already be something we should consider.) My guess is that it won’t get as much play as people think for very long. The decks it’s good against are already prepared for artifact based hate, so it’s not lights out but rather a speed bump.
If Torgaar had evasion, I think that version would be good. But, I’m guessing as a ground pounder it will be too easy for it to be a very complicated burn spell.
Anyway, I love how this group is always looking st new ideas, but trying them and vetting them before blindly praising whatever the new thing is.
That being said, it is not as bad a some matchups. I love lightning axe in the matchup as well as the sweepers. Most of their hate, as well as their wincons, are creature based. EE is also good on 2 if you’re running it.
Very intriguing. I think it’s not going to do enough, but this seems to be a natural fit with Goryo’s Vengeance. Even if it were an instant it might find a way to be playable, but sorcery plus 5cmc is probably too high a bar to clear.
I suppose gifts ungiven plus unburial rites is already just better
I might try hazoret sometime. I like it being indestructible and wins through a bridge and leyline of sanctity, but you're right that we don't want to be empty handed most of the time, so attacking is not as likely as I'd like it to be. I'll try it out one of these day just to see.
I might be getting too cute, but if eel like it might have promise if it's not too slow.
Anyone see thee meta changing in a way that changes what we do? I still don't think we want to splash blue for Jace or anything, although, those grixis and esper Goryos lists might be fun with Jace. So far too early to tell what people are going to do, but more pact of negation and maybe leyline over Chalice might make sense if everyone is gonna play discard and Jace.
Personally I don't like hugs at all. I like tormenting voice better. I should try sign in blood. The worry is with how much life you lose.
I'd probably start by maxing blood crypts and maybe another basic or two. I guess it depends what your starting point is. I'd probably do something like:
4 temple
4 crypt
3 blackcleave
5 swamp
2 mountain
1 Geier reach
Or maybe drop a blackcleave and crypt/Geier for one of each basic depending if you like Geier reach in the deck. It also depends if you're playing bloodmoon since the fetches help you get basic swamp. You could also use other black fetches and just take more damage when you have to shock a crypt more often.
I completely agree that is what they should do, but think gds has had enough ban talk in the past that a dominant performance could easily provoke an over-reaction by wizards. The wording in their b&r was scary to me and they have been known to make stupid decisions.
I hope you're right. But if any of those are too dominant at the pt, im afraid they might overreact.
I'd agree. It's probably at its lowest chance of being banned in awhile. No other decks are oppressively abusing ssg and Grishoalbrand hasn't done anything high profile in awhile.
I'm a bit worried about the wording of the b&r announcement referencing modern today, but Grishoalbrand is low on my list of worries. Unless they make a huge change to the format and ban all fast mana or something, I think Gris is relatively safe for now. I think gds, storm, Tron or mox opal are a lot more likely to get a ban. Or also decently likely that something gets unbanned.