I personally think this color hosing cycle should be all added into the cube:
White - Celestial Purge - Hoses Red and Black
Blue - Aether Gust - Hoses Red and Green (seems weak, but as a blue player, I would like this effect)
Green - Veil of Summer - Hoses Blue and Black
I'm still waiting for a good playable Red card that removes Blue- White and a good Black card that removes Green - White. (If this cycle was complete, this was be an auto include in my cube)
EDIT:
Black - Noxious Grasp - Hoses Green -White
Red - Fry - Hoses Blue- White (I don't think this is a terrific card, but the number of white planeswalkers in my cube is problematic)
But back to Veil of Summer. I think this is more of a meta game/ draft group call. I've personally played larger cube drafts where I was on a Gx ramp deck where I frustrating could not beat a Ux control deck. I think cubes are lacking efficient answers to problematic cards. I do like the efficient of color hosing cards, especially how effective these card can be against problematic planeswalkers/ spells and the number of good back and forth between games.
The other consideration is what percentage of your decks are tri color or four color. Cards such as Ancient Grudge/ Disenchant could easily played in the mainboard given the number of artifacts/ enchantments in the environment. Suppose you drafted green as a non-splash color and this card is "correct" to play mainboard 60-70% of the time, then I think this card would be okay.
(Mod - I went a bit off topic with discussing the enemy color hosers, but I feel this is should be more of a cycle discussion rather than SCD)
I currently own a powered cube and here is a somewhat unconventional opinion I have about lands in cube:
Disclaimer:
- It is already a forgone conclusion that Fetch - Dual - Shock are the best cycles of lands. I'm not arguing in any way these lands are not good and should not be an auto include
1. Temple i.e. Temple of Deceit should be an auto include in every color pair - Even if the color pair, such as Boros is a heavily aggro color because cube aggro decks often curve into FTK, Armageddon, Chandra Torch of Defiance in the top end etc. Cube aggro decks don't curve out as smoothly as something like Mono red in other formats and its very common to lose because of not hitting right colors, not hitting right lands, flooding etc. I have found the scry to be extremely useful
Irrigated Farmland is likely the consideration at the moment as the cut if I wanted to go down the 7 lands.
I've found manlands to be incredibly slow and I have almost never attacked with a colonade before - The only one time I recall I needed to attack with a Colonade was because my hand was destroyed by a Mind Twist. I have almost never lost a game because I ran out resources/ threats. I found the turns into a creature aspects to be almost useless and the land has only been drafted because its a UW land. I'm not too thrilled about the cycle land either, but I figured it might be better for more unstable combo decks that have fewer "playables" and wanted to played 1-2 more lands and anticipate drawing into their combo.
3. Whenever I read a forum/ advice about what the number of lands I should play in a 40 card deck (i.e. 17, 18 etc) I always play one more. I find that you lose too many games because of not hitting land drops/ proper mana rather than flooding out. (The only exception to this is if i'm playing a spells matter deck and I need my cantrips/ burn spells).
4. I would add 1-2 more cycles of lands into any cube than most cube designers. - I find people are drafting 3 or 4 color decks most of the time because they want to play with all these synergistic cards. I found a land is more likely to be good in any deck than a random card. I have played a temples or canopy lands where only one of the colors matched the two color pair I was playing because I valued the cycle/ scry alot. Its common to play Fetch/ Mirage fetch i.e. Arid Mesa in a Red-Green deck where you have a stomping ground.
I've also prioritized drafting lands over playables as I've often noticed people end up with 4-5 more playables and need to cut while their mana bases are very bad.
I found the artifact archetype outside of Tinker/ Ramp to be very parasitic in nature and are heavily saturated in blue (which is already a very overstacked color). Do you feel this is the nature? I've been extremely reluctant to add cards like Urza, Emry etc.
Feels like an extremely bad mechanic for a powered cube. This effect could either be a win-con. I.e. your opponent has one creature on board, you cast a Palace Jailer, you essentially just swung the advantage even more in your favor. On the other hand, if you're already incredibly behind, your essentially giving your opponent an extra draw every turn (you prob wouldn't have casted the Jailer).
I feel this isn't really a problem in more powerful formats this is legal i.e. legacy/vintage which very few games are decided by late game grinds between two fairs decks. Or in commander which has 3 other players whom can team up on you if you have the monarch crown.
Suppose I have Parallax Tide on the field with 5 counters. Could I do this:
A - Remove a counter from Parallax Tide, remove target Land from the game.
Holding Priority
B - Remove a counter from Parallax Tide, remove target Land from the game.
Holding Priority
C - Remove a counter from Parallax Tide, remove target Land from the game.
Holding Priority
Disenchant Targeting Parallax Tide
4 Triggers are put onto the stack with Disenchant at the very top. Disenchant would resolve first and Parallax Tide would leave play. Its own trigger would activate and return all lands it exiled back to play (no lands were exiled)
C, B then A would trigger removing the land forever because Parallax Tide is gone.
This is really minor but I noticed that Tormenting Voice isn't in your cube. The card seems pretty good in a lot of combo based archetypes. Is it just a bit too weak to make it into the cube?
Thrill of Possibility is a strictly better version of that card, and I don't run that one either...
This is really minor but I noticed that Tormenting Voice isn't in your cube. The card seems pretty good in a lot of combo based archetypes. Is it just a bit too weak to make it into the cube?
But I been finding Visera Seer, Carrion Feeder and the Sac Alters relatively unimpressive. I frequently find the "aristocrats" decks I draft are often smokestack/ braid/ opposition decks that leverage creatures for game advantages rather than a 3 card Combo kill with Persist/ Sac Outlet and Melrira/ +1/+1 guy.
How are people generally finding persist combos in their cube, are you able to pull it off?
How are people finding this card? When I first saw this card, I compared him to FTK which and thought this card was absolutely insane. The drawback seems to be that the 2 damage is a "you must" not a you may which might be forcing this creature to target itself.
I think it might be a good drop to play with Goblin Rabble master and variants.
My other question is have you tried pushing a more zombie tribal theme similar to humans?
On the other hand, I think I understand the reanimator deck alot better now:
You need 3-4 Discard Outlets, 3-4 Reanimation spells, 3-4 Fatties and preferably some tutors to help find the combo pieces. I'm going to actually proxy up this list in particular (https://www.cubetutor.com/cubedeck/1182931)
Part 1) No, I haven't. Reanimator is still extremely competitive and is both deep and consistent. I will not be removing it from the cube, nor do I have even the slightest desire to do so. And I disagree about the pieces not being good in other archetypes. If anything, the opposite is true. Reanimation spells are playable in random goodstuff decks. Discard outlets are good in a variety of shells. Reanimator's monsters are valuable in ramp and control (and even as midrange curve toppers) much more frequently than the super titans are. I think it's the fatty cheating deck that uses the more polarizing and parasitic cards.
Part 2) I don't want to remove any of those cards. I can have my cake and eat it too. The Braids/Yawgmoth deck is fantastic. Big red decks are very successful. I have no desire to remove support for my aggro decks to make other archetypes that are already successful better.
It sounds like it's something you want for your cube. If that's the case, go for it. But it's not something I want or need in the slightest.
That makes sense. I think its more that I been struggling drafting reanimator.
Do you have cube drafts with good reanimator lists?
Have you considered cutting reanimator as an archetype out of your cube?
What I been noticing with the reanimator archetype is the traditional fatty cheat archetype has been a lot stronger when the creatures hit the table and require alot fewer cards (i.e. Eldrazi, progenitus)
- Natural Order -> Progenitus
- Sneak Attack/ Through the breach (Show and tell is kinda bad but it does the job)
- Arcane Artisan, QuickSilver Amulet
- Tinker, Eureka, ShellDock Isle, Dream Halls,
- Flash (if you're interested in the etb trigger like Sundering Titan or a one shot effect like Grishelbrand)
- Similarly, hard ramping/ accelerating into these creatures with Hide Tide Combo, Channel, Irencrag Feat, Seathing Song or Heart beat etc from traditional storm cards ramping into fatty cheats have been easier.
- This can also be setup using Mind's Desire into an Eldrazi which happens frequently.
Similarly, I noticed the reanimator archetype requires three distinct pieces to setup and drafting all three pieces is difficult (not to mention alot of these cards do not work well in other archetypes)
Part 2:
I been considering restructuring my cube based on your template to move back off the reanimator archetype and more towards a recursion/ zombie archetype that could work well with Braids, Smokestack, Yawgmoth or potentially with Green to become more of a Black-Green Delirium/ graveyard recursion archetype (Cutting several reanimator support cards).
- Removing some green aggro cards (as black will be more aggressive) and trying to support a black-green graveyard theme deck with Threshold, Grave recursion etc.
- Removing some red aggro element one drops (black will have alot more zombies one drops) to support Big Red/ Mud Archetypes?
This is just something I been thinking about alot recently.
Suppose I cast Intuition or Gifts Ungiven (for completeness sake, the creatures are griselbrand, Elesh Norn, Iona, Shield of Emeria and Wurmcoil Engine) and two cards are hitting the graveyard.
Then I cast Shallow Grave. How do we decide which creature is the top creature in the graveyard?
1) Who decides what is the top creature in the graveyard for Gifts Ungiven or Intuition.
2) If my hand of Griselbrand, Elesh Norn, Iona, Shield of Emeria and Wurmcoil Engine were discarded by a mass discard like Wheel of Fortune. Do I decide which order I stack these creatures in the graveyard?
White - Celestial Purge - Hoses Red and Black
Blue - Aether Gust - Hoses Red and Green (seems weak, but as a blue player, I would like this effect)
Green - Veil of Summer - Hoses Blue and Black
I'm still waiting for a good playable Red card that removes Blue- White and a good Black card that removes Green - White. (If this cycle was complete, this was be an auto include in my cube)
EDIT:
Black - Noxious Grasp - Hoses Green -White
Red - Fry - Hoses Blue- White (I don't think this is a terrific card, but the number of white planeswalkers in my cube is problematic)
But back to Veil of Summer. I think this is more of a meta game/ draft group call. I've personally played larger cube drafts where I was on a Gx ramp deck where I frustrating could not beat a Ux control deck. I think cubes are lacking efficient answers to problematic cards. I do like the efficient of color hosing cards, especially how effective these card can be against problematic planeswalkers/ spells and the number of good back and forth between games.
The other consideration is what percentage of your decks are tri color or four color. Cards such as Ancient Grudge/ Disenchant could easily played in the mainboard given the number of artifacts/ enchantments in the environment. Suppose you drafted green as a non-splash color and this card is "correct" to play mainboard 60-70% of the time, then I think this card would be okay.
(Mod - I went a bit off topic with discussing the enemy color hosers, but I feel this is should be more of a cycle discussion rather than SCD)
Disclaimer:
- It is already a forgone conclusion that Fetch - Dual - Shock are the best cycles of lands. I'm not arguing in any way these lands are not good and should not be an auto include
1. Temple i.e. Temple of Deceit should be an auto include in every color pair - Even if the color pair, such as Boros is a heavily aggro color because cube aggro decks often curve into FTK, Armageddon, Chandra Torch of Defiance in the top end etc. Cube aggro decks don't curve out as smoothly as something like Mono red in other formats and its very common to lose because of not hitting right colors, not hitting right lands, flooding etc. I have found the scry to be extremely useful
2. Manlands are incredibly bad. I've actually cut Celestial Colonade from my UW section - I'm on 8 lands with
Adarkar Wastes
Flood Plain
Flooded Strand
Hallowed Fountain
Irrigated Farmland
Seachrome Coast
Temple of Enlightenment
Tundra
Irrigated Farmland is likely the consideration at the moment as the cut if I wanted to go down the 7 lands.
I've found manlands to be incredibly slow and I have almost never attacked with a colonade before - The only one time I recall I needed to attack with a Colonade was because my hand was destroyed by a Mind Twist. I have almost never lost a game because I ran out resources/ threats. I found the turns into a creature aspects to be almost useless and the land has only been drafted because its a UW land. I'm not too thrilled about the cycle land either, but I figured it might be better for more unstable combo decks that have fewer "playables" and wanted to played 1-2 more lands and anticipate drawing into their combo.
3. Whenever I read a forum/ advice about what the number of lands I should play in a 40 card deck (i.e. 17, 18 etc) I always play one more. I find that you lose too many games because of not hitting land drops/ proper mana rather than flooding out. (The only exception to this is if i'm playing a spells matter deck and I need my cantrips/ burn spells).
4. I would add 1-2 more cycles of lands into any cube than most cube designers. - I find people are drafting 3 or 4 color decks most of the time because they want to play with all these synergistic cards. I found a land is more likely to be good in any deck than a random card. I have played a temples or canopy lands where only one of the colors matched the two color pair I was playing because I valued the cycle/ scry alot. Its common to play Fetch/ Mirage fetch i.e. Arid Mesa in a Red-Green deck where you have a stomping ground.
I've also prioritized drafting lands over playables as I've often noticed people end up with 4-5 more playables and need to cut while their mana bases are very bad.
What do people think?
The monarchy mechanic in this case, I'll refer to:
Custodi Lich
Palace Jailer
Regal Behemoth
Feels like an extremely bad mechanic for a powered cube. This effect could either be a win-con. I.e. your opponent has one creature on board, you cast a Palace Jailer, you essentially just swung the advantage even more in your favor. On the other hand, if you're already incredibly behind, your essentially giving your opponent an extra draw every turn (you prob wouldn't have casted the Jailer).
I feel this isn't really a problem in more powerful formats this is legal i.e. legacy/vintage which very few games are decided by late game grinds between two fairs decks. Or in commander which has 3 other players whom can team up on you if you have the monarch crown.
Suppose I have Parallax Tide on the field with 5 counters. Could I do this:
A - Remove a counter from Parallax Tide, remove target Land from the game.
Holding Priority
B - Remove a counter from Parallax Tide, remove target Land from the game.
Holding Priority
C - Remove a counter from Parallax Tide, remove target Land from the game.
Holding Priority
Disenchant Targeting Parallax Tide
4 Triggers are put onto the stack with Disenchant at the very top. Disenchant would resolve first and Parallax Tide would leave play. Its own trigger would activate and return all lands it exiled back to play (no lands were exiled)
C, B then A would trigger removing the land forever because Parallax Tide is gone.
Is there a reason?
I been incredibly impressed about:
Yawgmoth, Thran Physician
SkullClamp (Obviously)
Braids, Cabal Minion/ SmokeStack
Judith, the Scourge Diva
Goblin Bombardment
But I been finding Visera Seer, Carrion Feeder and the Sac Alters relatively unimpressive. I frequently find the "aristocrats" decks I draft are often smokestack/ braid/ opposition decks that leverage creatures for game advantages rather than a 3 card Combo kill with Persist/ Sac Outlet and Melrira/ +1/+1 guy.
How are people generally finding persist combos in their cube, are you able to pull it off?
How are people finding this card? When I first saw this card, I compared him to FTK which and thought this card was absolutely insane. The drawback seems to be that the 2 damage is a "you must" not a you may which might be forcing this creature to target itself.
I think it might be a good drop to play with Goblin Rabble master and variants.
On the other hand, I think I understand the reanimator deck alot better now:
You need 3-4 Discard Outlets, 3-4 Reanimation spells, 3-4 Fatties and preferably some tutors to help find the combo pieces. I'm going to actually proxy up this list in particular (https://www.cubetutor.com/cubedeck/1182931)
That makes sense. I think its more that I been struggling drafting reanimator.
Do you have cube drafts with good reanimator lists?
Have you considered cutting reanimator as an archetype out of your cube?
What I been noticing with the reanimator archetype is the traditional fatty cheat archetype has been a lot stronger when the creatures hit the table and require alot fewer cards (i.e. Eldrazi, progenitus)
- Natural Order -> Progenitus
- Sneak Attack/ Through the breach (Show and tell is kinda bad but it does the job)
- Arcane Artisan, QuickSilver Amulet
- Tinker, Eureka, ShellDock Isle, Dream Halls,
- Flash (if you're interested in the etb trigger like Sundering Titan or a one shot effect like Grishelbrand)
- Similarly, hard ramping/ accelerating into these creatures with Hide Tide Combo, Channel, Irencrag Feat, Seathing Song or Heart beat etc from traditional storm cards ramping into fatty cheats have been easier.
- This can also be setup using Mind's Desire into an Eldrazi which happens frequently.
Similarly, I noticed the reanimator archetype requires three distinct pieces to setup and drafting all three pieces is difficult (not to mention alot of these cards do not work well in other archetypes)
Part 2:
I been considering restructuring my cube based on your template to move back off the reanimator archetype and more towards a recursion/ zombie archetype that could work well with Braids, Smokestack, Yawgmoth or potentially with Green to become more of a Black-Green Delirium/ graveyard recursion archetype (Cutting several reanimator support cards).
- Removing some green aggro cards (as black will be more aggressive) and trying to support a black-green graveyard theme deck with Threshold, Grave recursion etc.
- Removing some red aggro element one drops (black will have alot more zombies one drops) to support Big Red/ Mud Archetypes?
This is just something I been thinking about alot recently.
Then I cast Shallow Grave. How do we decide which creature is the top creature in the graveyard?
1) Who decides what is the top creature in the graveyard for Gifts Ungiven or Intuition.
2) If my hand of Griselbrand, Elesh Norn, Iona, Shield of Emeria and Wurmcoil Engine were discarded by a mass discard like Wheel of Fortune. Do I decide which order I stack these creatures in the graveyard?