I have a problem with black as a colour in my 360 unpowered cube. This is my current cube list on cubecobra, not updated to MH2 yet and also still missing some cards that were too expensive for me to buy all at once: https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/17yd
I struggle to get black an identity other than just the typical Reanimator and being an ok secondary colour if open. I hear that I'm not the only one who ever faced this problem. The current iteration of my cube has some cards fore grinding like Braids, Cabal Minion, Bitterblossom, and Recurring Nightmare. Also I tried to go with a discard theme and added stuff like Raven's Crime, Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage, Smallpox and Gerrard's Verdict. While I wasn't able to test this much, when I did, it felt a little underpowered to me. Has anyone had experience with a discard strategy in cube and has some tips? Should I include cards like Tinybones, Trinket Thief, Waste Not and Tourach, Dread Cantor to make it more viable or would that be too gimmicky to work?
Why did you, wtwlf123, choose to have black have an aggressive role on your cube? Does it work well as monoblack? And if so, what makes it good in particular?
If you don't mind, I can chime in.
I've personally tried a Black discard theme where I've played all the 2 mana black discard spells (no 1 drop aggressive creatures) with the intention of the discard cards helping in decks like Black-Red Disruptive Aggro, Black-Green midrange etc. I found the experiment play out decently well, especially in a combo heavy environment. The problem with a full on discard/ loam archetype is it is very difficult for black to keep up with the card advantage (ETB/ graveyard recursion/ card draw, especially draw 7) from the opponent. It provides a nice disruption for your powerful 2-4 drops such as Hazoret, Gideon etc. but I would not try to Liliana/ Pox them out.
The second consideration is Thoughtseize / Smokestack are both very strong cards, but after this point, the quality starts to drop off. The problem I had was Agonizing Remorse, Lost Hours aren't bad cards - but their 2 CMC really conflicted with the Cycle of talisman, Counter spells, 2 drops etc.
Personally, my black section helps to support Aristocrats/ Reanimator/ Inverter Combo/ Control and storm.
I kind of get what you mean. Stoneforge is a card that requires you have something to fetch and play. It's like Show and Tell without a payoff or Reanimate without a target. Still a great card, but you do need something.
I personally think cubes need cards like this to be interesting. Something you can do a little building around. A deck with 23 lightning bolts and 17 mountains is nice, but uninteresting.
The thing is though that it doesn't require much building around at all. Storm requires nearly your entire deck to be built around it for it to work. Stoneforge only needs one target.
I remember thinking Mission Briefing was barely good enough for powered cubes. It was worse than snapcaster, but not way worse.
The analogy isn't perfect because UU vs 1U is a big difference, but I certainly underestimated how big the body part of snapcaster contributed to it's value. Mission briefing was a flop in every format.
Eternal witness is a way better card than regrowth and it costs an entire G mana more.
Yes spellseeker is more often seen in decks without way to abuse the ETB (tension between spell count and creatures), but the creature value still adds up.
Thanks for your responses!
I'm pretty sold right now that Trinket Mage's 2/2 body. I guess most of the time you're searching for a moxen/ Crypt/ sol/ lotus anyways. 2 power is relevant to pressure planeswalkers/ life total. I could definitely see how Trinket mage is probably stronger than Fabricate
For Spellseekr, I could see how the 1/1 body is pretty relevant against the aggressive decks, especially with the 1 toughness creatures. If it was a 2/2 (with similar stats to shardless) or 3 CMC or less, I probably would be more excited about it.
But I feel its more that "Ancestral, Channel, Time Walk, Mana Drain, Mind Twist are good ..." and I just want to cast those cards. I feels like Merchant Scroll would probably do a serviceable job as it can fetch Flash, Frantic Search, Sunder, Gifts Ungiven as well.
I really need to think about/ test it before I comment. Right now, I feel I'm more in the market for a card like Merchant Scroll or Solve the Equation to help tutor up my blue combo instants.
It crews copter, picks up a Sword, trades for an opponent's 2/1, can be flickered or picked up and recast for another trigger, flipped in and out of play with Nightmare ...the body still does stuff, you know? I wish it was a 2/2 like Trinket Mage is, but it's still a valuable thing to have around.
Spellseeker felt like a card I want in a powered 360 or in a 720+ card cube that's loaded with the scaleable Xcc spells that get added in at bigger sizes. It never really shone for me in medium-sized cubes.
Trinket Mage is always a card I'm looking to re-add to my cube. I love it, but cuts in blue are so agonizing.
I'll have to think about it. But not being able to fetch sweepers or high end payoffs for combo decks feels problematic. Do you have a sample list by any chance?
I feel without Batterskull, Skullclamp or Kaldra Compleat (I don't run it though) in my deck, she's not really worth it.
I think Stoneforge Mystic is easily one of the best white cards in cube (assuming you're not holding back on equipment). A 2 for 1 for that cheats things into play is busted at 1W.
Not running Batterskull / Clamp does lower its power level a bit, but I'd still cube it if I were cubing Jitte / critical mass of swords / etc.
Sorry that statement was very badly worded.
Correction:
- I run Batterskull / Clamp but not Kaldra Compleat.
- I was saying I feel stoneforge is not very good if the deck I'm running doesn't have Batterskull/ Clamp.
I like both of the body modes more than the spell equivalents, but Trinket Mage in particular is a lot better than Fabricate because the 2/2 body is worth a full card in addition to the tutoring value it provides. I don't run any of those cards, but I'm infinitely closer to adding the creatures back in than I'd ever be adding in a limited target 3-mana tutor that's just card parity.
Thanks for the response.
I could definitely see how Trinket mage is stronger than Fabricate. But for Spellseeker vs Solve the Equation, I think i'm still firmly on the Solve the Equation side given that Solve the equation could fetch sweepers/ WildFire/ Mind's Desire etc.
The only reason I could see why Spellseeker's body is relevant is with cards like Bone Shards or Culling the weak
Despite being a punisher card, Oona's Prowler has been absolutely insane for me. 2 mana 3/1 flyer is incredibly strong in a black aggressive/ reanimator style archetype. I would argue its slightly stronger in table top than MTGO since you're less likely to face the mirror, where your opponent could also benefit from Prowler.
I haven't test Cabal myself, but 2 mana 2/1 without evasion really doesn't cut it for me. I've found threshold to be fairly challenging to turn on and a 2 mana 3/3 really doesn't cut it these days.
I've been testing Bone Shards as a discard outlet recently - I think its worth a consideration, especially given how its 1 CMC.
It seems the reception for Spellseeker/ Trinket Mage is (or was in 2018?) fairly high, but the reception for their more versatile blue 3 CMC tutor is a lot lower. Why is that?
The body on Imperial Recruiter has been a bit more relevant, since it is played more with Pod/ Aristocrats/ Kiki etc. But I don't see too many cases of Spellseeker played inside blink or anything - its more or less played as a 3 CMC Demonic Tutor for Instant/ Sorcery.
Similarly, Trinket mage has been fairly good for its ability to grab moxen, lotus, etc but cannot grab artifact combo pieces such as Basalt Monolith, Time Vault or any of the high end payoffs.
I guess what I'm asking is "how good is the 2/2 body or 1/1 body?"
I've been thinking about these cards to help provide some much needed redundancy for my storm decks in 720 while not being parasitic.
Dust Bowl > Field of Ruin ~ Tectonic Edge > Ghost Quarter
Cheers,
rant
Can you sell me on Dust Bowl? I've found the cost to be too prohibitive, especially for the Crucible/ Loam deck. Is it playable as a bad Rishadon port out of an aggressive deck once it curves into 4 lands?
Does anyone have any experience with Tectonic Edge? Is it good enough as a bad Rishadon port for aggressive decks and servicable Crucible/ Loam target?
I'm not too excited about Ghost Quarter myself, I'm in the market for another wasteland style effect for my crucible deck.
I think the main issue with this card is that 3 vanilla 4/4's for 7 mana isn't even that good of a cube card, even at instant speed, and that's an above average scenario for the card. Like, I'd certainly play a 7 mana instant that made 3 4/4's, but it wouldn't be a top 10 green card or anything.
This is a card I'm starting to get less and less excited about - It seems way too slow to be effective and with more efficient planeswalker removal effects in black, it seems to get a lot worse.
If you don't mind, I can chime in.
I've personally tried a Black discard theme where I've played all the 2 mana black discard spells (no 1 drop aggressive creatures) with the intention of the discard cards helping in decks like Black-Red Disruptive Aggro, Black-Green midrange etc. I found the experiment play out decently well, especially in a combo heavy environment. The problem with a full on discard/ loam archetype is it is very difficult for black to keep up with the card advantage (ETB/ graveyard recursion/ card draw, especially draw 7) from the opponent. It provides a nice disruption for your powerful 2-4 drops such as Hazoret, Gideon etc. but I would not try to Liliana/ Pox them out.
The second consideration is Thoughtseize / Smokestack are both very strong cards, but after this point, the quality starts to drop off. The problem I had was Agonizing Remorse, Lost Hours aren't bad cards - but their 2 CMC really conflicted with the Cycle of talisman, Counter spells, 2 drops etc.
Personally, my black section helps to support Aristocrats/ Reanimator/ Inverter Combo/ Control and storm.
I do have an aristocrats theme in my cube.
This is on the top of my standby list in black to replace if one of 2-4 drops under performs, he replaces them.
That I can agree with 100%.
Thanks for your responses!
I'm pretty sold right now that Trinket Mage's 2/2 body. I guess most of the time you're searching for a moxen/ Crypt/ sol/ lotus anyways. 2 power is relevant to pressure planeswalkers/ life total. I could definitely see how Trinket mage is probably stronger than Fabricate
For Spellseekr, I could see how the 1/1 body is pretty relevant against the aggressive decks, especially with the 1 toughness creatures. If it was a 2/2 (with similar stats to shardless) or 3 CMC or less, I probably would be more excited about it.
But I feel its more that "Ancestral, Channel, Time Walk, Mana Drain, Mind Twist are good ..." and I just want to cast those cards. I feels like Merchant Scroll would probably do a serviceable job as it can fetch Flash, Frantic Search, Sunder, Gifts Ungiven as well.
I really need to think about/ test it before I comment. Right now, I feel I'm more in the market for a card like Merchant Scroll or Solve the Equation to help tutor up my blue combo instants.
I'll have to think about it. But not being able to fetch sweepers or high end payoffs for combo decks feels problematic. Do you have a sample list by any chance?
Sorry that statement was very badly worded.
Correction:
- I run Batterskull / Clamp but not Kaldra Compleat.
- I was saying I feel stoneforge is not very good if the deck I'm running doesn't have Batterskull/ Clamp.
I realized this was very badly worded.
- Merchant Scroll, Solve the Equation, Spellseeker - (High Tide, Frantic Search, Dark Ritual etc.)
- Fabricate, Trinket Mage (Fetch LED, Lotus, Mana Crypt etc.)
- Impulse, Windfall (General Draw spells)
Thanks for the response.
I could definitely see how Trinket mage is stronger than Fabricate. But for Spellseeker vs Solve the Equation, I think i'm still firmly on the Solve the Equation side given that Solve the equation could fetch sweepers/ WildFire/ Mind's Desire etc.
The only reason I could see why Spellseeker's body is relevant is with cards like Bone Shards or Culling the weak
Despite being a punisher card, Oona's Prowler has been absolutely insane for me. 2 mana 3/1 flyer is incredibly strong in a black aggressive/ reanimator style archetype. I would argue its slightly stronger in table top than MTGO since you're less likely to face the mirror, where your opponent could also benefit from Prowler.
I haven't test Cabal myself, but 2 mana 2/1 without evasion really doesn't cut it for me. I've found threshold to be fairly challenging to turn on and a 2 mana 3/3 really doesn't cut it these days.
I've been testing Bone Shards as a discard outlet recently - I think its worth a consideration, especially given how its 1 CMC.
Solve the Equation vs Spellseeker and
Trinket Mage vs Fabricate
It seems the reception for Spellseeker/ Trinket Mage is (or was in 2018?) fairly high, but the reception for their more versatile blue 3 CMC tutor is a lot lower. Why is that?
The body on Imperial Recruiter has been a bit more relevant, since it is played more with Pod/ Aristocrats/ Kiki etc. But I don't see too many cases of Spellseeker played inside blink or anything - its more or less played as a 3 CMC Demonic Tutor for Instant/ Sorcery.
Similarly, Trinket mage has been fairly good for its ability to grab moxen, lotus, etc but cannot grab artifact combo pieces such as Basalt Monolith, Time Vault or any of the high end payoffs.
I guess what I'm asking is "how good is the 2/2 body or 1/1 body?"
I've been thinking about these cards to help provide some much needed redundancy for my storm decks in 720 while not being parasitic.
Can you sell me on Dust Bowl? I've found the cost to be too prohibitive, especially for the Crucible/ Loam deck. Is it playable as a bad Rishadon port out of an aggressive deck once it curves into 4 lands?
Does anyone have any experience with Tectonic Edge? Is it good enough as a bad Rishadon port for aggressive decks and servicable Crucible/ Loam target?
I'm not too excited about Ghost Quarter myself, I'm in the market for another wasteland style effect for my crucible deck.
Thats really interesting. Could you explain why you first picked Karn and what the deck was?
That's a fair point.
I feel without Batterskull, Skullclamp or Kaldra Compleat (I don't run it though) in my deck, she's not really worth it.
Does anyone else feel this about Karn?