Last night I just added Humility to my cube for testing, so Archangel Elspeth couldn't have come at a better time for me. This plays well with Humility by having a +1 ability that generates tokens and giving things +1/+1 counters and flying. Like OG Elspeth, this being able to hit the board and potentially steal initiative or kill Minsc & Boo is huge in my environment, and is a big differentiator between this and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar.
Overall people will probably fall into two camps with this depending of their opinions of Elspeth, Knight-Errant. The more you like Knight-Errant, the more you'll probably like this, and vice versa. Archangel Elspeth's first and third ability are much better than Knight-Errant's, plays better defensively, but the difference between their second abilities is pretty big. Archaangel Avacyn has more risk / reward that can potentially lead to a blowout on either side, while Knight-Errant is pretty safe and generally has a higher damage output.
This feels essentially the same power level as OG Elspeth, which is nowadays a bubble card on power level for cubes (can't believe how far we've come). If you want that with a slightly different flavor, or want another version of that, this is perfect. However, if you don't want that, this card won't move you.
I think this is probably slightly worse when you're ahead (unless your opponent has no removal, where it's probably better), slightly better when you're behind, and with a cheaper and worse ultimate that I don't really care about (just like with OG Elspeth).
But like, this isn't gonna move the needle on what 4-drops I want to run. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is more powerful. I think the Wandering Emperor is more powerful (and infinitely more interesting as a design). It's not gonna bump any of my 4-drop creatures. I wish, given that this is apparently Eslpeth merged with Serra, they'd pushed the power up a bit more and maybe made it a 5-drop or a 6-drop, or had tried a completely different suite of abilities. It's kind of boring that it's so similar to the the first time we saw Elspeth.
I like Ally of Zendikar more as well and this would come as a close second.
The more I think about this, the more I think this is essentially a better Unburial Rites. You can setup the double entomb with Gifts Ungiven, but this doesn't have the problem of white mana in a reanimator deck and also allows double reanimate for grindy decks.
Yeah I've always said (in my head at least) that this basically everything I want Unburial Rites to do, but also steal from any graveyard and be an initiative enabler. This has been catching on to the rest of my play group recently, probably because 1.) initiative is just busted and 2.) being able to steal from any graveyard is more valuable than ever now with Flash / Atraxa running rampant.
I think this is still a massive sleeper. It was oershadowed by Minsc & Boo + the other initiative cards, not to mention it was in the Commander deck of the Commander set. I didn't even review it in my hot takes article at the time, although I may have skipped over reading it at the time. I distinctly remember reading this card on Twitter and was like "huh, I didn't even know that existed" well after the set was spoiled.
I've noticed that a lot of cards you pushed have been catching on recently .. I would love to play Tribal Flames / Evasive Action, but I don't have space.
How do you think it compare to Incarnation Technique?
They're two very different cards, as they fill different roles for me. Incarnation Technique is an explosive combo card for cheaty face decks, where From the Catacombs is more for grindy midrange / control decks. If I had to choose between the two, I'd probably go with Incarnation Technique since it offers more specific archetype support.
Liliana, Death's Majesty is probably the closest comparison to this. From the Catacombs has a higher ceiling and is recursive, but Liliana doesn't have to worry about getting initiative stolen or lacking targets in the graveyard to be useful.
The more I think about this, the more I think this is essentially a better Unburial Rites. You can setup the double entomb with Gifts Ungiven, but this doesn't have the problem of white mana in a reanimator deck and also allows double reanimate for grindy decks.
This one might not be worth it but I was surprised no one mentioned it so far. Are people still running Shadowmage Infiltrator and is this an upgrade or downgrade?
- BIG negative, no Fear. It's possible this comes in and is just a 1/3 waste of a card.
- You reveal the draw, giving your opponent some information.
+ The card you draw drains the opponent. Could be useful in a damage race as this seems to be more of a tempo deck critter.
+ Ninjitsu. This could potentially connect on turn 2, and maybe that low cost can help it get in for a couple early attacks before blockers are deployed. Ninjitsu also helps it connect later in the game (at least once). You can also rebuy the ninjitsu'd creature if it has an etb bonus vendilion clique, etc.
I'd love the dream of going t1 black 1-drop, t2 ninjitsu this in for damage + draw, then leaving counter/removal mana up the rest of the game. I'd have to imagine the ACS is at least sneaking it in on one attack and/or rebuying an etb effect creature, so is that worth trying out?
Shadowmage is too slow + the damage is irrelevant. I've been pretty impressed with Yuriko in cEDH/ EDH and legacy and I would like to give her a try - The versatility is well understood and the ceiling is up there.
I don't know if I'm a fan of this in Reanimator but I'll be running it anyway.
I'm sure people will target it with Animate Deads and Necromancies and Recurring Nightmares and it'll be fine if confusing (and probably chumped by 1/1 spirits for days), but I'll be including it for Mass Polymorph and the Manifest -> Astral Slide/Drift deck I support. Both of those are already in blue for me anyway, and both run non-creature permanents that are sweet to copy:
This card and Astral Dragon are both on my watch list right now. Cool cards, to be sure.
Interestingly, I been thinking about the "reanimator storm" hybrid archetype for a while to help both be a bit more competitive, and I just realized Astral Dragon CAN be a Griselbrand/ Atraxa level reanimator target to copy LED/ Mana Doublers/ Grim Monolith etc.
I'll give it a test. My concern is with all the "JUDGE!", what happens if this copies a planeswalker/ LED etc.
I play legacy and I can tell you the Judge's favorite card is Dress Down
The new format, Phyrexian All will be one, is incredibly aggressive and my experience with a card like Evolving Adaptive is that getting to play something on turn 1 and can grow into a 3/3 or 4/4 in the mid game has been absolutely difficult for the opponent to come back from.
There are several cards I would recommend everyone to re-evaluate, regardless of power level. Green decks lack answers to combo/ planeswalkers and getting pressure early has been incredibly important in my experience. This is a bit unconventional, but I would recommend playing these green 1-drops inside any deck - ramp, lands, midrange, melira for their ability to put on pressure early (against slower decks/ combo), block aggressive creatures (against aggro) or just grown into a 3/3 (against midrange).
I would reconsider these cards:
- Ascendant Packleader - This is obviously strong in UG tempo with Force/ Cruise, but my experience is he's been fairly decent in almost any green deck. I've played him in a ramp deck/ bant-oko style decks where I was able to easily grow him to a 3/2 or 4/3.
- Teething Wurmlet - If you have 5 artifacts, you can consistent grow him to a 2/2 on turn 2, which I've found to be more or less a given in vintage cube anyways. My experience was Crucible of Worlds decks were often clunky and would get ran over by aggro. I had a game where I had him out turn 1 and grown him to a 4/4 deathtouch with Crucible/ Urza's Saga. I also had games where I've used a 1/1 to block for an early planeswalker.
- Elvish Reclaimer - Its very easy to grow him to a 3/4 as you can crop rotate for a fetch land to put another land into the graveyard while tutoring for a utility land.
I'm going to re-visit Shallow Grave / Coprse Dance. I've reached a good critical mass of non-creature discard outlets that makes Oath of Druids / Reanimator hybrids much easier to pull off these days, not to mention Unamrked Grave, the resurgence of Flash, and the new critical mass of super fatties as payoffs. These are also a great followup to Flash that makes for a good one-two punch.
I think they're good. My experience is Reanimator decks need to consistent reanimate a target on turns 3-4 in order to be competitive. However, Breach/ Shallow grave can be slotted into a midrange/ control deck as like a combo finish here the deck can play like 2 eldrazi/ 2 sneak attack/ shallow grave effects and can setup a late game combo finish.
I've found you cannot really do this with reanimate as the setup/ payoff isn't really worth it.
So I've been forcing reanimator / cheaty face a lot since early February, and its results have never been more consistent for me (thanks Flash / Atraxa!). Here's 6 decklists that were either pure reanimator decks or or some sort of Oath of Druids / Reanimator hybrid. Of the 6 decks, there's only 1 list where I wouldn't have run Unmarked Grave (the first one). Other than that list, I either would have run it, or it was already in the decklist. Again, I think the whole 'nonlegendary' being a dealbreaker of a drawback is extremely overblown.
I've noticed that for the majority of your lists with unmarked, you only have 2-4 reanimation spells, which feels a bit too few IMO.
I liked Thrill when I tested it out. Being an instant provided more than just the ability to play it on your opponent's turn; it also made it a playable card in spells matters shells, and being another target for Snapcasters and JVPs was important in those decks. Plus, I do think being an instant is important for graveyard builds. Telegraphing your reanimation setup can be a big deal. Binning your target at your opponent's EOT can save a lot of mishaps. Just my $0.02.
Thrill was legal in several retail drafts and my firm conclusion is its not playable in any deck outside of dedicated reanimator (including spells matters, storm etc). However, I've found the haste to be incredibly strong, even for fair archetypes. During Brother's War, if the opponent has a Bitter Reunion out, I was at a virtually lower life.
I realized one thing is your opponent often does not have perfect information about your hand/ deck. This will often lead to your opponent over-evaluated the Dreadhorde as you can "buff" you can grow it next turn or you can double plow etc.
My experience with a card like this is you need to play both sides of this matchup to fully understand how strong a card is - There are times for example where I had 3+ counters on thing in the Ice and I passed with 4+ mana. My opponent deosn't know if my hand is lands or Fact or Fiction into two burn spells and I've seen them play much more passively.
I want to second Wtwlf's sentiment about Teething Wurmlet and I will try to sell this for anyone that's a skeptic. What I've learned during Phyrexia All will be one draft is a card like Evolving Adaptive / Exuberant Fuseling are incredibly strong in midrange decks that can incidentally make these creatures 3/x or 4/x if they're played on turn 1. Midrange decks often lack good early plays and having "delver" style cards can be incredibly strong.
- If you have 5 artifacts in your deck, you have a 70% chance on the play of making this a 2/2. This number improves ROUGHLY by 5% for every additional artifact/ card draw (increase in sample size), which are very strong odds.
- If you have 9 artifacts in your deck, you have roughly 50% chance of making it deathtouch by turn 3-4 (mid-game). This number improves by roughly 4% for every additional artifact/ card draw. (This doesn't take into account of cards that can produce multiple such as Tireless Tracker/ Oko, Retrofitter)
My experience with Wurmlet is its 70-80% "naturally" playable in Green-x aggressive decks (I would like 80% consistency on turn 2 to grow it into a 2/2) but it shines can shine in a lot of green decks such as Lands/ GX Smokestack (also an artifact!)/ Melira Combo/ ramp, which 50-70% of the time have the appropriate artifact density to naturally turn it into a 4/4 deathtouch in the mid-game. These decks often lack good turn 1 plays and having an early creature that can grow while gaining life/ block/ pressure planeswalkers has been invaluable for me.
I've been fairly impressed with Evolving Adaptive in draft - just getting to have a creature grow potentially to 4+ power for 1 CMC investment has been INSANE.
I be interested to hear how Humility plays out.
I like Ally of Zendikar more as well and this would come as a close second.
I've noticed that a lot of cards you pushed have been catching on recently .. I would love to play Tribal Flames / Evasive Action, but I don't have space.
The more I think about this, the more I think this is essentially a better Unburial Rites. You can setup the double entomb with Gifts Ungiven, but this doesn't have the problem of white mana in a reanimator deck and also allows double reanimate for grindy decks.
Shadowmage is too slow + the damage is irrelevant. I've been pretty impressed with Yuriko in cEDH/ EDH and legacy and I would like to give her a try - The versatility is well understood and the ceiling is up there.
This is my concern lol. Every single card is a nightmare to explain
Interestingly, I been thinking about the "reanimator storm" hybrid archetype for a while to help both be a bit more competitive, and I just realized Astral Dragon CAN be a Griselbrand/ Atraxa level reanimator target to copy LED/ Mana Doublers/ Grim Monolith etc.
I'll give it a test. My concern is with all the "JUDGE!", what happens if this copies a planeswalker/ LED etc.
I play legacy and I can tell you the Judge's favorite card is Dress Down
There are several cards I would recommend everyone to re-evaluate, regardless of power level. Green decks lack answers to combo/ planeswalkers and getting pressure early has been incredibly important in my experience. This is a bit unconventional, but I would recommend playing these green 1-drops inside any deck - ramp, lands, midrange, melira for their ability to put on pressure early (against slower decks/ combo), block aggressive creatures (against aggro) or just grown into a 3/3 (against midrange).
I would reconsider these cards:
- Ascendant Packleader - This is obviously strong in UG tempo with Force/ Cruise, but my experience is he's been fairly decent in almost any green deck. I've played him in a ramp deck/ bant-oko style decks where I was able to easily grow him to a 3/2 or 4/3.
- Teething Wurmlet - If you have 5 artifacts, you can consistent grow him to a 2/2 on turn 2, which I've found to be more or less a given in vintage cube anyways. My experience was Crucible of Worlds decks were often clunky and would get ran over by aggro. I had a game where I had him out turn 1 and grown him to a 4/4 deathtouch with Crucible/ Urza's Saga. I also had games where I've used a 1/1 to block for an early planeswalker.
- Elvish Reclaimer - Its very easy to grow him to a 3/4 as you can crop rotate for a fetch land to put another land into the graveyard while tutoring for a utility land.
I think they're good. My experience is Reanimator decks need to consistent reanimate a target on turns 3-4 in order to be competitive. However, Breach/ Shallow grave can be slotted into a midrange/ control deck as like a combo finish here the deck can play like 2 eldrazi/ 2 sneak attack/ shallow grave effects and can setup a late game combo finish.
I've found you cannot really do this with reanimate as the setup/ payoff isn't really worth it.
I've noticed that for the majority of your lists with unmarked, you only have 2-4 reanimation spells, which feels a bit too few IMO.
Even in reanimator decks, I would prefer to run cards like Bone Shards / Collective Brutality / Jace, Vryn's Prodigy that can help play a control game.
I would only go into reanimator if I open something like Sneak Attack/ Oath of Druids early on and reanimator is my backup.
Thrill was legal in several retail drafts and my firm conclusion is its not playable in any deck outside of dedicated reanimator (including spells matters, storm etc). However, I've found the haste to be incredibly strong, even for fair archetypes. During Brother's War, if the opponent has a Bitter Reunion out, I was at a virtually lower life.
I think its worth a test.
My experience with a card like this is you need to play both sides of this matchup to fully understand how strong a card is - There are times for example where I had 3+ counters on thing in the Ice and I passed with 4+ mana. My opponent deosn't know if my hand is lands or Fact or Fiction into two burn spells and I've seen them play much more passively.
- If you have 5 artifacts in your deck, you have a 70% chance on the play of making this a 2/2. This number improves ROUGHLY by 5% for every additional artifact/ card draw (increase in sample size), which are very strong odds.
- If you have 9 artifacts in your deck, you have roughly 50% chance of making it deathtouch by turn 3-4 (mid-game). This number improves by roughly 4% for every additional artifact/ card draw. (This doesn't take into account of cards that can produce multiple such as Tireless Tracker/ Oko, Retrofitter)
My experience with Wurmlet is its 70-80% "naturally" playable in Green-x aggressive decks (I would like 80% consistency on turn 2 to grow it into a 2/2) but it shines can shine in a lot of green decks such as Lands/ GX Smokestack (also an artifact!)/ Melira Combo/ ramp, which 50-70% of the time have the appropriate artifact density to naturally turn it into a 4/4 deathtouch in the mid-game. These decks often lack good turn 1 plays and having an early creature that can grow while gaining life/ block/ pressure planeswalkers has been invaluable for me.
- Wild Nacatl
- Elvish Reclaimer
- Evolving Adaptive
- Experimental One
- Hexdrinker
- Pelt Collector
- Ascendant Packleader
I've been fairly impressed with Evolving Adaptive in draft - just getting to have a creature grow potentially to 4+ power for 1 CMC investment has been INSANE.