All right all as probably the only Humans and Burn player on here that posts some what regularly. A couple of points to help y'all.
1. Burn wins with redundancy and consistent damage however whats even more key is the timing. Example, if you bring in Feed the Clan beware most people dont have more then 2 to 3 life gain Instants yet Burn runs 4 to 8 Skullcrack/Atarka's so timing when you gain that life is key cause lots of times Burn is waiting for it. 2 to 3 vs 4 to 8, odds favor Burn.
2. Skullcrack and Path has helped neutralize some what Kor and Auriok and can do to Burn.
3. Leyline is a good card when you can get it turn 0 to slow Burn a few turns but good luck if you have to hard cast it as Burn generally sides in Artifact/Enchantment answers.
4. Burn preys on decks like Humans cause it has a bunch of 2 for 1 cards that give it advantage like Searing Blaze and/or Searing Blood creature kill face damage, Smash to Smithereens/Destructive Revelry knock out a hate card and do damage, Skullcrack/Atarka's stop life gain and damage to face.
5. Multi color decks that take 4-6 damage the first 2 turns really help Burn. Heck 1 guy who knew I was playing Burn and still did 9 damage for me.......I know fetching basics isnt always an option but cards like Inspiring Vantage do help.
So how to beat Burn using the Human shell....
Option 1 out race using a midrange or 22-24 land build, not likely.
Option 2 side in life gain or anti Burn stuff, possible but got to time it right and heck just draw that card, 2 or 3 out of 60 when you need it, rough.
Option 3 accept the loss and just fold, no way Im a fighter
Consider your meta and how much you see Burn, is it worth it to waste spots on an already tough match cause ya cant side for everything.
When I run Humans and have to deal with Burn, game 1 if Burn goes first its almost always a loss unless they mana flood or just have 1 land until I own the board and attack quick. I run a 20 land speed/blitz style Humans and if I go first the match up isnt as bad as I can sometimes out race. In games 2 and 3 since I run 4 Leylines for Grixis and a few other decks I use them here but if I dont get it turn 0 it wont do much.
Now each situation is different and this is some general info/tips but not hard fast rules for those that run a midrange/22-24 land build.
1. Lets say Burn goes first and drops turn 2 Eidolon taping them out then on your turn 2 you drop land if you have Feed the Clan or Hereos' Reunion use it even if its an Instant and on your turn. That extra life can buy you and extra turn or 2 will help you stabilize the board and possibly get that 4 or 5 land out to do something big like your creatures are now out of Bolt range and you can over run Burn. Watch for Deflecting Palm if your in game 2 or
3. If in game 2 or 3 you and wanna cast lifegain and you see 2 or 3 open mana good chance you could be baited into Skullcrack. There are times its better to cast it their turn after their tapped out or in response to something that taps them out.
2. Burn has trouble with the redundancy of Merfolk and all those Lords pumping creatures out of Bolt range and the ability to lock out their White or Green mana source slowing down Burn since at least 1/3 of the deck needs that 2nd color land. How does this apply to Humans, Land destruction lands and stabilizing the board.
3. The majority of Burn players do not run sweepers like Anger, Flamebreak, Volcanic Fallout at this time but has done so in the past and will again in the future if needed. Other decks that are quick like Elves, Affinity, Speed Zoo can give Burn issues. What can a slower deck take from that, Burn is more worried about Tron, Shadow and big creatures so Path can help them there and Palm can be a game ender. Try to focus more on equal pumping with Thalia's to whatevers on the board rather then having Thalia get big and attacking with 1 big creature that can be hit with Palm.
Now please dont pull the "well if you do this I can do that" stuff cause we can go on all day with you counter my move then I counter your counter and so on. These are tips not the gospel. Good luck I hope some of this helps.
Very interesting read, and this is why I insist on managing humans as coco and non coco.
Speaking about the non coco...
Since they are mostly RW they usually pack hate in a more consistent way since they only have to worry about 2 colors.
I can see the on coco boros humans outracing red because of pumpable creatures AND burn. It wont be easy to decide for the RDW players to burn a 1/1 creature that will get bigger or the player.
Turn 0 leyline will be a nightmare for the burn player (Ive had a few scoop at this ) after G1 and allow you to somewhat freely gain life.
I also primarily run Boros.....I run PtE as a must because of some fo the big threats that we need moved that Burn spells cant help. I run Burn as my primarily for a long time and over on the Burn forum PtE has become a must at least in side because 3 damage just isnt enough then factor in possible cards that bring creatures back fast or card like Kitchen Finks that can combo off into infinite life or delay us enough for them to do other stuff. I understand your reasoning for running Burn stuff over PtE and from my experience running many different Zoo variants PtE has been more handy in the long run. That said if your finding the Burn cards more helpful more power to ya.
All in all I really like you deck. As for splitting the discussion, the Company build has been the most talked about/uesd on here but other veraitions like mine have trickled in and out. I mentioned in another post the awesome versatility Human builds can be from 5 color to 1 color from quick/speed zoo to midrange or even a DnT/Control/denial type build. Options are a plenty. Whenever people popped into here with different builds I enjoy hearing their experiences and reasoning as also others do too. There is now specific 75 you have to use. We can all help each other, get different ideas and see whats work/no worked.
Remember that a bolted Kitchen Finks while Soul-scar mage is on the battlefield wont return.
I understand the worry about fatties, as there are several that are problematic however most of them require work to play or take some time to get in play, which means that you have some time to get the game close to be finished.
Personally im never sad to draw a Path, however I feel comfortable with it in the sb.
It looks like it would do well when you're drawing the right ratio of humans and spells, and have some explosive starts (a la Burn) that get under some decks that other slower Human builds have trouble with. But at 22 humans I worry about running into hands with more burn than creatures, where Champion and Lieutenant become suboptimal. How often does this come up?
3 copies of Always Watching seems a little clunky outside of its payoff with Initiate. With enough Prowess triggers would Seeker of the way become better than Initiate? If so, it might be worth trading Always Watching for something like 2 more spells (Boros Charm? Smuggler's Copter?) and another Human (Magus of the Moon? Grim Lavamancer?)
The deck can have its good and slow starting hands, still the flexibility of burn to work as removal is great and can often give enough time for the finishers to enter the battle field.
Also, the multiple life gaining sources support this plan. It isnt bad to crash an exerted Glory-Bound Initiate for it.
There are times that lategame Champions and Lieutenants are just bodies for blocking... while the burn clock keeps ticking
After reading all pages, I suggest that the humans topic should be split into CoCo (several color combinations) and non-CoCo (mostly RW)
Personally, im using a boros brew that takes advantage of several cards in Ammonkhet. And its good to have choices, while CoCo relies on beat down to win, mine can both beat down and burn. That flexibility is worth exploring more IMHO
The main difference is that I choosed to replace PtE with more burn, which thanks to Soul-Scar Mage's influence allows my humans to take down fatties in combat (if they appear) or just aim it to my opponent's face for faster games.
Im not that excited about Ramos, dragon engine, because its pretty vulnerable with the creature./ artifacts sub types. Ive used both Mirari's Wake and Mana reflection which have similar but less powerful effect with a much greater resilence by being enchantments, and ultimately removed them because if they manage to survive its very likely that you have an advantage.
On the other hand, after seeing the Ixalan leak, the Arcane adaptation enchantment looks highly playable, as its cheap (2U) and it basically turns your non sliver thralls in play or not in play into tutorable slivers. It looks that you can easily take advantage of it at least once easily or could fly under the radar if more threatening cards are active
I think that Paradox Engine is an extremely useful tool, as it has proven its worth in many of other decks.
Imma replace Amoeboid Changeling with Vizier of the Menagerie. The first one has limited utility because it requires to lower (or not have) your shields, and so, it rarely gets activated. The latter helps fixing mana for creatures (priority) and makes me not fold hard to Blood Moon effects.
what would you tutor with hull? Three 2 ccc mana slivers? 1 legendary and Galerider sliver?
By the time you get enough mana And get a sac outlet for him you would already have some board presence. For me its best to be advancing rather than just pull all your important slivers at once, that could leave you open for a Merciless Eviction
The Vizier of the Menagerie IS a very interesting card, that first, fixes your mana AND allows you to dig through your library. As a fan of Future sight I know how important is to dig. Last but not least, this is an answer to Blood Moon
On the other hand, I think that a full combo approach should get plenty of counterspells. If you are in a meta with Zurs, Scions, Arcums, Tazri, counterspells are a life saver. Dont forget that most of those mentioned are much faster than you
Heh well, a correction I need to make is that just a few slivers are worth 1 mana.
Just use the greaves if you want, but for me is a waste of space as they arent easily tutorable and add nothing new to the hive. The way you mention that can allow to combo doesnt need them because Basal Sliver already goes to infinite with Training grounds. In my oppinion, instead of pulling out all the slivers from the deck to kill with combat damage ( and risk a overloaded cyclonic rift staple) you should combo out and insta kill the opponents.
No slivers are worth 1 mana and I think that you would get better value with Sentinel Sliver if you attack and after combat tap the slivers for mana.
Im not saying that the greaves are bad, they are a staple in commander for a reason, but I think that slivers by themselves have more value and that slot could be used with something else.
On the other hand Mind's eye vs Rhystic study. Study wins as enchantment removal is rarer than artifact removal, besides that YOU dont need to pay extra mana, your opponents have to if they dont want to give you extra cards. Again if your meta allows you such things by all means go for it, however I dont have the luxury of time in many of my matches, and you probably wont if you earn the title of archenemy with your sliver deck
Since humans are slowly being powered up, I tried brewing a human tribal deck for modern.
But was dissapointed as humans showed as a synergistic tribe, but there werent just enough pieces to create a consistently aggro deck.
Enter Amonkhet.
After some proxy testing with the spoilers I have found that this set brings key pieces to finally make this a feasible and powerful deck.
White is the main human color, so it was a matter of choosing the best parter color for them. Green brings protection and some powerful keycards. However with the new expansion Red brings tools to not only help, but synergize for the common known boros archetype.
"Red/white decks run out of steam".
says hello.
"Red decks are all about direct damage". Powerful staples are here to keep the clock ticking.
"White is all about wheenies". The humans synergize with each other.
Before continuing speaking about this deck Im going to give you the list:
The result is that there is double synergy in this deck.
1.- Humans buff each other when they come in to play
2.- Thanks to a good number of burn spells, its feasible to buff the humans that have prowress, so they deal more damage.
3.- Hazoret the Fervent is the perfect finisher as he is indestructible (to all of those Fatal Pushes being cast around, turns land flood into non direct burn And is a relevant 5/4 hasty creature.
4.- Even that humans start as weenies, fatties are not a problem anymore with the Soul-Scar Mage's help, as all burn spells can shrink them (*cough* Tarmogoyf *cough*)
5.- Always Watching helps buff your humans, but more important is that it comboes with Glory-Bound Initiate. A turn 3, 5/5 Vigilance Life linker on curve is important.
6.- Flex Slots. For now Im including Mana Tithe because no one plays around it and also with so many 1-2 drops, its possible to cast a 2 drop on turn 3 and have mana left for a tithe on your opponents next turn.
7.- Last but not least, white's incredibly strong hate cards make for a good sideboard, and dont forget that we have flex slots.
Matchups.
So far Im satisfied with the results I got and I will mention them in a while, just remember that Amonkhet hasnt been released yet and so, this deck is still a WIP.
Tron: Positive. Fairly easy to get the humans out of Pyroclasm range
Red deck wins. Positive, we got life gain and a slighty less powerfull direct damage arsenal with lots of creatures for back up.
Jeskai: Medium. Slighty better chance postboard to counter all of that removal.
Eldrazi and taxes: Medium - Slighty positive after board.
Jund: Positive. Nothing feels better than shrinking an enemy's goyf
8 Rack: Positive.
Merfolk: Slighty unfavorable. That Aether vial can mess up stuff
Thanks for reading!
Looking forward to build this deck when Amonkhet gets released finally
I think that the Bow of Nylea or Venom sliver being better depends on which deck you are using them. I can see th sliver being better in an aggro version, where getting a wall of first strike death touch blockers is feasible, however, that isnt the case with the control/combo route where its likely that slivers got cut out for counterspells amd such.
For that type of deck the bow is better.
- take down a Kaalia from the vast? Check
- recover cards from the graveyard? Check
- recover some life because you hace taken hits instead of sliver combo pieces you want to protect? Check
- Buff a creature so it can avoid -x/-x effects? check
- Your opponent is dangerously low on life? Just attack and destroy his defenses. Check
The utility of the bow far exceeds the bonus from the sliver, but as I said before, it depends on the deck archetype.
The greaves are a staple of voltron commander decks, and although the Overlord can go voltron I find the greaves lack luster because they arent easily tutorable and Crystalline Sliver not only is tutorable, but also gives protection to itself and all the other slivers. You could argue that it gives redundancy, but I would prefer to tutor for alternate protection (should crystalline being killed) like Hibernation Sliver which even that cost more mana (and life) protects the slivers from board wipes, sacrifices, etc. things regular shroud cant protect from.
TLDR version: Greaves are lackluster to what slivers already provide, save the spot for another answer or threat.
Last but not least.
Slivers are *not* nice, I guess that the easiest you could go would be aggro in a multiplayer meta.
But I would definitely prefer to change decks in casual meta.
Can I sac Breya, etherium shaper to her abilities, trigger Pia's revolution and if the opponent decides to take the 3 damage, move Breya to the command zone instead of leaving her in the graveyard?
I think that in order to make modern players start brewing new stuff (and return to pro tour) the format should get seasons. These seasons would have an specific ban list that differs from the regular modern (much like french commander) AND also, changes at the pace of the standar rotation.
So for example in one season lightning bolt gets banned (changin a lot the metagame) and the next season that card could (or not) get unbanned.
This way different cards can be tested in or out of ban list and get a different playstyle because new cards will get added (with the release of new expansions via standar)
Lots of staples for older formats.
While Im excited to pull one from the few boosters I will open, I look forward to own none with the ridiculous prices they have
Very interesting read, and this is why I insist on managing humans as coco and non coco.
Speaking about the non coco...
Since they are mostly RW they usually pack hate in a more consistent way since they only have to worry about 2 colors.
I can see the on coco boros humans outracing red because of pumpable creatures AND burn. It wont be easy to decide for the RDW players to burn a 1/1 creature that will get bigger or the player.
Turn 0 leyline will be a nightmare for the burn player (Ive had a few scoop at this ) after G1 and allow you to somewhat freely gain life.
Remember that a bolted Kitchen Finks while Soul-scar mage is on the battlefield wont return.
I understand the worry about fatties, as there are several that are problematic however most of them require work to play or take some time to get in play, which means that you have some time to get the game close to be finished.
Personally im never sad to draw a Path, however I feel comfortable with it in the sb.
The deck can have its good and slow starting hands, still the flexibility of burn to work as removal is great and can often give enough time for the finishers to enter the battle field.
Also, the multiple life gaining sources support this plan. It isnt bad to crash an exerted Glory-Bound Initiate for it.
There are times that lategame Champions and Lieutenants are just bodies for blocking... while the burn clock keeps ticking
Interesting suggestions, I will try them
Personally, im using a boros brew that takes advantage of several cards in Ammonkhet. And its good to have choices, while CoCo relies on beat down to win, mine can both beat down and burn. That flexibility is worth exploring more IMHO
This is my list
4x Arid Mesa (MM3)
2x Boros Charm (C16)
2x Cavern of Souls (MM3)
4x Champion of the Parish (ISD)
4x Flagstones of Trokair (TSP)
4x Glory-Bound Initiate (AKH)
1x Hazoret the Fervent (AKH)
4x Inspiring Vantage (KLD)
4x Lightning Bolt (MM2)
4x Lightning Helix (MMA)
4x Monastery Swiftspear (KTK)
3x Plains (AKH)
1x Ranger of Eos (MM3)
4x Rift Bolt (MMA)
4x Sacred Foundry (GTC)
4x Soul-Scar Mage (AKH)
4x Thalia's Lieutenant (SOI)
Sideboard
2x Grafdigger's Cage (MM3)
3x Harsh Mentor (AKH)
3x Leyline of Sanctity (MM2)
2x Path to Exile (MM3)
2x Rest in Peace (RTR)
1x Revoke Existence (BNG)
The main difference is that I choosed to replace PtE with more burn, which thanks to Soul-Scar Mage's influence allows my humans to take down fatties in combat (if they appear) or just aim it to my opponent's face for faster games.
More details here at tappedoout
On the other hand, after seeing the Ixalan leak, the Arcane adaptation enchantment looks highly playable, as its cheap (2U) and it basically turns your non sliver thralls in play or not in play into tutorable slivers. It looks that you can easily take advantage of it at least once easily or could fly under the radar if more threatening cards are active
Imma replace Amoeboid Changeling with Vizier of the Menagerie. The first one has limited utility because it requires to lower (or not have) your shields, and so, it rarely gets activated. The latter helps fixing mana for creatures (priority) and makes me not fold hard to Blood Moon effects.
By the time you get enough mana And get a sac outlet for him you would already have some board presence. For me its best to be advancing rather than just pull all your important slivers at once, that could leave you open for a Merciless Eviction
The Vizier of the Menagerie IS a very interesting card, that first, fixes your mana AND allows you to dig through your library. As a fan of Future sight I know how important is to dig. Last but not least, this is an answer to Blood Moon
On the other hand, I think that a full combo approach should get plenty of counterspells. If you are in a meta with Zurs, Scions, Arcums, Tazri, counterspells are a life saver. Dont forget that most of those mentioned are much faster than you
Just use the greaves if you want, but for me is a waste of space as they arent easily tutorable and add nothing new to the hive. The way you mention that can allow to combo doesnt need them because Basal Sliver already goes to infinite with Training grounds. In my oppinion, instead of pulling out all the slivers from the deck to kill with combat damage ( and risk a overloaded cyclonic rift staple) you should combo out and insta kill the opponents.
Im not saying that the greaves are bad, they are a staple in commander for a reason, but I think that slivers by themselves have more value and that slot could be used with something else.
On the other hand Mind's eye vs Rhystic study. Study wins as enchantment removal is rarer than artifact removal, besides that YOU dont need to pay extra mana, your opponents have to if they dont want to give you extra cards. Again if your meta allows you such things by all means go for it, however I dont have the luxury of time in many of my matches, and you probably wont if you earn the title of archenemy with your sliver deck
But was dissapointed as humans showed as a synergistic tribe, but there werent just enough pieces to create a consistently aggro deck.
Enter Amonkhet.
After some proxy testing with the spoilers I have found that this set brings key pieces to finally make this a feasible and powerful deck.
White is the main human color, so it was a matter of choosing the best parter color for them. Green brings protection and some powerful keycards. However with the new expansion Red brings tools to not only help, but synergize for the common known boros archetype.
"Red/white decks run out of steam".
"Red decks are all about direct damage". Powerful staples are here to keep the clock ticking.
"White is all about wheenies". The humans synergize with each other.
Before continuing speaking about this deck Im going to give you the list:
2 Always Watching
3 Sunlance
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Mana Tithe
Lands
4 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Inspiring Vantage
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Glory-Bound Initiate
2 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Soul-Scar Mage
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Rebuff the Wicked
4 Path to Exile
3 Disenchant
The result is that there is double synergy in this deck.
1.- Humans buff each other when they come in to play
2.- Thanks to a good number of burn spells, its feasible to buff the humans that have prowress, so they deal more damage.
3.- Hazoret the Fervent is the perfect finisher as he is indestructible (to all of those Fatal Pushes being cast around, turns land flood into non direct burn And is a relevant 5/4 hasty creature.
4.- Even that humans start as weenies, fatties are not a problem anymore with the Soul-Scar Mage's help, as all burn spells can shrink them (*cough* Tarmogoyf *cough*)
5.- Always Watching helps buff your humans, but more important is that it comboes with Glory-Bound Initiate. A turn 3, 5/5 Vigilance Life linker on curve is important.
6.- Flex Slots. For now Im including Mana Tithe because no one plays around it and also with so many 1-2 drops, its possible to cast a 2 drop on turn 3 and have mana left for a tithe on your opponents next turn.
7.- Last but not least, white's incredibly strong hate cards make for a good sideboard, and dont forget that we have flex slots.
Matchups.
So far Im satisfied with the results I got and I will mention them in a while, just remember that Amonkhet hasnt been released yet and so, this deck is still a WIP.
Tron: Positive. Fairly easy to get the humans out of Pyroclasm range
Red deck wins. Positive, we got life gain and a slighty less powerfull direct damage arsenal with lots of creatures for back up.
Jeskai: Medium. Slighty better chance postboard to counter all of that removal.
Eldrazi and taxes: Medium - Slighty positive after board.
Jund: Positive. Nothing feels better than shrinking an enemy's goyf
8 Rack: Positive.
Merfolk: Slighty unfavorable. That Aether vial can mess up stuff
Thanks for reading!
Looking forward to build this deck when Amonkhet gets released finally
For that type of deck the bow is better.
- take down a Kaalia from the vast? Check
- recover cards from the graveyard? Check
- recover some life because you hace taken hits instead of sliver combo pieces you want to protect? Check
- Buff a creature so it can avoid -x/-x effects? check
- Your opponent is dangerously low on life? Just attack and destroy his defenses. Check
The utility of the bow far exceeds the bonus from the sliver, but as I said before, it depends on the deck archetype.
The greaves are a staple of voltron commander decks, and although the Overlord can go voltron I find the greaves lack luster because they arent easily tutorable and Crystalline Sliver not only is tutorable, but also gives protection to itself and all the other slivers. You could argue that it gives redundancy, but I would prefer to tutor for alternate protection (should crystalline being killed) like Hibernation Sliver which even that cost more mana (and life) protects the slivers from board wipes, sacrifices, etc. things regular shroud cant protect from.
TLDR version: Greaves are lackluster to what slivers already provide, save the spot for another answer or threat.
Last but not least.
Slivers are *not* nice, I guess that the easiest you could go would be aggro in a multiplayer meta.
But I would definitely prefer to change decks in casual meta.
This is mostly for commander.
So for example in one season lightning bolt gets banned (changin a lot the metagame) and the next season that card could (or not) get unbanned.
This way different cards can be tested in or out of ban list and get a different playstyle because new cards will get added (with the release of new expansions via standar)
While Im excited to pull one from the few boosters I will open, I look forward to own none with the ridiculous prices they have