A minor side note: If your opponent does manage to off KCG while you have Lattice on the board, Nature's Claim is a one mana instant Vindicate.
If KGC ends up sticking, and you face it in the mirror, you can tap for colorless if you have no green sources in response to a Lattice casting. Once it lands, you can spend that mana to Claim it away.
If KGC becomes a mainstay, you can actually Claim their Karn and lock them under their own Lattice if you have a Karn of your own.
Also getting constant redirects to the goodluckday.site link. It’s one of those irritating links that redirects multiple times so you have to dig through your history to get back to the page you were on.
drawn Karn Liberated? play it, minus and exile a land
drawn new karn? play it, fetch liquimetal coating, play it, turn one of their lands into a stony-silenced artifact in their upkeep.
Yeah, but then they just attack Karn and you're down a card and 6 mana for a useless Liquimetal Coating (until you find and cast a 2nd Creator). This line also doesn't put them down raw lands for Valakut, nor does it prevent Titan from just bouncing the land and reusing it. And Titan and Valakut are two of the only MUs where we want to take out lands as opposed to creatures or other problematic permanents (that GC's static generally can't deal with).
ensnaring bridge: alright go with me on a journey. This card is traditionally, in our current iterations of Tron a bad card. We have no way to fetch it up, it interferes with our creature threats and running one in the sideboard would be a wasted slot. However let's consider what would happen if we were suddenly able to tutor this card up in most games. would that change the profile of this card in terms of its usefulness? Sitting behind a wall for a couple of turns while establishing a dominant position through planeswalkers would be a powerful way to approach certain matchups, and we have numerous ways to surprise-attack by removing the bridge itself (ulamog, world breaker, karn, nature's claim etc). I think being able to tutor for this card actually changes the answer significantly to the question "would we ever play this card". Normally the answer is emphatically no, but with new Karn, I can see a more reasonable argument for the card's inclusion, as a trump-card for certain scenarios (and again, it's fetchable and castable on turn three with tron).
The reason we don’t run Ensnaring Bridge has very little to do with the fact that we can't tutor it or that it interferes with our creatures. It has everything to do with that we can't consistently empty our hand. Let's take our average T3 Tron hands (T1 land Map, T2 land crack Map T3 land or T1 land Star/Sphere, T2 land crack + Sylvan Scrying T3 land). In both of these lines, when we assemble T3 Tron, we have 6 cards in hand on the play, and 7 cards in hand on the draw. When we play Great Creator we go down to 5/6 cards. Then Karn grabs Bridge (+1) and we cast it (-1). That means we pass the turn with 5/6 cards in hand, and we're only "protected" from creatures with 6-7 power. Bridge won't even stop Gurmag Angler or a mid-sized Shadow in this scenario. The only threat that we reasonably stop here is Thing in the Ice. And it really doesn't get better next turn. You get to dump some number of Stars and/or Maps next turn, but Scrying still clogs up your hand with lands. You're also now put in a dilemma, because you can either not crack your Stars/Spheres/Maps/Relics and hope that your opponent can't deal with the Bridge (since you're essentially putting yourself down cards), or you can crack them hoping to draw threats, but have the huge risk of drawing cards you can't play or lands. And if you do want to play a threat, you're likely not going to have enough mana to start emptying your hand. There's a reason why Bridge is played in decks full of 0-1 cost artifacts that just sit on the battlefield (not to mention a lot of decks that play Bridge back it up with some number of Welding Jars to protect it). Even a lot of Prison/Lantern lists have started to move to running Bottled Cloister to deal with scenarios when they're stuck with 1-2 lands in hand. And before we get into the scenario of running Bridge + Cloister in our wishboard, Cloister is an extremely risky card. When prison decks fetch Cloister, they do it because they primarily want to get rid of their clunky hand, and they've already dumped all the cards they really care about (since they all cost 0-1 mana). Even if Cloister gets blown up, they're still generally fine with the trade, as it was like an expensive One with Nothing that put their opponent down a kill spell that could've gone at the Bridge. If someone pops our Cloister, it's absolutely devastating. Sure, we have a Bridge, but we probably just lost a hand with a decent mix of threats and lands/spells we care about. Unlike Prison, Tron really isn't a One with Nothing style deck. We also can't protect Cloister with Jars. Not to mention that Cloister's just a narrow card in general, and you're now reducing your SB for corner-case scenarios where your opponent doesn't just kill Karn. You have to remember that a good 80-90% of the time when we cast 7-mana Karn and pop -3, we're basically accepting him as "Exile target permanent. Gain 3-4 life." If your goal is Karn immediately -2, you have to basically accept him as "Wish an artifact. Gain 3-4 life." And unlike Karn, he doesn't have the use case of ticking him up to a massive 10 loyalty and practically forcing your opponent to have something like a Maelstrom Pulse, or ignore him and hope to race.
I can see the argument to playing him with an extremely limited wishboard like Lectrys was suggesting, running like 3-6 cards he can get (like Lattice, O-Stone, Ballista, Witchbane, Relic, Skite or something). This way you still have access to a 9-12 card sideboard for the relatively large number of games where Karn is just too slow. I still think it's too cute, but only time we'll tell.
One final point I'd like to make about "Karn wish for O-Stone" is that one of the major strengths of O-Stone is that it doesn't punish you for having T4 Tron (as is unfortunately often the case), or even missing Tron completely. "Karn wish for O-Stone" requires T3 Tron, and it "leaks" information about you having O-Stone on T4 (which means your opponent may play around it by not overextending or casting hand disruption). "Karn wish for O-Stone" is as good as an O-Stone in the best-case scenario, but in an average-case scenario it may or may not be.
It’s interesting, but the 1-card exile is a little weak in the lens of the GY decks you’re likely to run into in Modern. 1-card exile is best when you’re playing against decks like Goryo’s, where you get to blow out their spell that they spend most of the game setting up for. Unfortunately, most of the GY decks either use the GY incidentally (Phoenix) or in such a way that exiling a single card on average isn’t that relevant (Dredge). Exiling a single Phoenix really isn’t worth 1G and a card, and it’s rare for Dredge to be overly reliant on a single card in their GY. Sometimes you could gimp them if they keep a 1-dredger hand, or if you get to pick a timely Conflagrate, but again 1G is kind of slow. It’s hard to justify when you could be playing Nature’s Claims and Surgicals, that while taking up more board space come down a lot faster in the MUs where the effect is relevant (and in the case of Surgical, a lot more powerful of an effect).
It’s definitely a card to keep in mind for SB consolidation if the 1-card exile effect becomes more relevant in the future, though.
Explosion Zone is an interesting new Map/Scrying target.
Yeah, I just ditched Scavenger Grounds for a "Blast Zone", and having removal on a land has been absolutely swell! While we may not have the room, I'm convinced there are some other decks that want more than 1 of this bad boy.
I would rather Wish with New Karn for a Crucible and use it a bunch of times than play multiples
Yeah, and I'd rather just draw a Karn Liberated than a Great Creator if we're talking about drawing random cards with Tron online.
The big draw with Blast Zone is we can actually tutor for it if we draw Scrying/Map.
Just got back from GP São Paulo, started yesterday with a nice 7-1 at the Day 2 cutoff... then got trounced by Hardened Scales. Met it four times in the final stretch of the tournament, lost three of these. Still finished 10-5, which was not bad.
But it looks like I need to get more practice on this matchup, so I'd appreciate any pointers/experience you guys can share.
Honestly, I believe that the new Karn will be absolutly insane for us. Ill plan on testing at least 2 possibly 4 in the main board replacing Ulamog, maybe an o-stone, and maybe a relic.
I think we can all attest that at times drawing a Ulamog or having one in your opening hand can be almost a dead draw at least in my opinion whereas the new Karn is always relevant as its only 4 CMC. Having access to your sideboard in game one can be huge, as ill plan on playing some one-off cards like Tormod's Crypt, gravediggers cage, etc which could free up some duplicate space in the sideboard.
The static ability on Karn is like having a stony silence in the main board which I think has the potential to get us free wins against affinity and the mirror.
The fact that new Karn can serve as a win con is the cherry on top IMO. Having a card that when it resolves can win the game when we have 10 mana is great but it's even better when it can do double duty.
I honestly think the sky is the limit with this card as it will give us the ability to be much more dynamic in game one and may end up freeing up some sideboard options
I would love to hear your guys opinion on my take of this card. Am I being too optimistic or is there any other people that think this is the nuts?
You nailed most of my thoughts. I actually go back and forth with cutting Ulamog from the mainboard because I hate having it in my opener so badly, same goes for O-Stone. New Karn being a win condition itself is nice,but I read it as 'you now have in hand whatever card you need right now'. I could not be more indifferent to the Lattice plan, I really couldn't, but this will let me take some of the cards I am not happy to see in every matchup but can't cut from the mainboard and have the best of both worlds. Not just general sideboard stuff either, it's like Eye of Ugin come back to us, because I can put Ulamog in the side and only have it when I want it. I may cut all or most of the creatures from the main and run them as 1-2 in the side, lower the curve a bit. I think people are a bit misguided with the Lattice plan, we don't need off the wall ways to win, we have the cards already for the best late game in the format, ones that don't rely on this new Karn staying in play. this is the thing to give us flexibility beyond our powerful but straightforward plan A. I absolutely love it.
All this utility is great but of course there's also the massive power play of Great Creator + Mycosynth Lattice which completely shuts off all our opponents' lands and activated abilities on any other cards. After that, you can +1 on the Lattice and make a 6/6 to attack or block with. Also, with Lattice active, Scion of Urza makes massive tokens, but you can't lock them out with Creator at the same time due to the legend rule.
The current legend rule allows you to control multiple planeswalkers of the same type, as long as they have different names.
Oh yea Prime Time is definitely better even with removal. He generates value and you can still recur him from the graveyard with this new Finale as well. Against control where they have no board presence, then Carney T may steal the game, but I think against most other decks, Prime Time is just better for sure.
The issue most people don't realize with Carnage Tyrant is that it really does die to removal, just not traditional point removal (technically, they may even know it has that weakness, but do not account for it). In the mental chess game, one brings in that kind of card against a control deck that is loaded up with Counter Magic or someone playing removal.dec. Game 2 the control player will either board edicts or board sweeps, since board sweeps that hit unilaterally are pretty cost effective. That's sort of why I like Prime Time over the dino most of the time. I figure he's going to die in those matchups one way or the other and the extra resources he brings to the table if he lands can help pull off a finisher.
Also I like Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner. She can untap Nikthos and gives card advantage on the bigger plays when our hand starts drying up. Plus, if they waste a turn killing her, that's one more turn or one less removal to deal with when we get to the good stuff. Heck, you can Bloodbraid right into her as well.
I agree largely, but in context of the new card, I was just pointing out that a 17/16 Carnage Tyrant with haste ends the game a lot more consistently than a 16/16 Primeval Titan with haste (the fact that Tyrant dies to wraths and Liliana is irrelevant if you just kill with him on-turn). But in general, I largely agree with the statement he's not worth the space.
Oh yea Prime Time is definitely better even with removal. He generates value and you can still recur him from the graveyard with this new Finale as well. Against control where they have no board presence, then Carney T may steal the game, but I think against most other decks, Prime Time is just better for sure.
Yeah, that was largely my point. Running 1 Carney T is cute in the sense that it's really hard to interact with (and attacking with a 16-17 power trampler should win the game regardless of triggers), but I also can't imagine it's worth the slot.
On the other hand, a lot of the TNN variants run 1 Emrakul to go off with Xenagos, so from that lens it wouldn't be the first time to run a niche tutor target.
Primeval Titan can't fetch creatures so I'm not sure I get the comparison. In the sense that both of them can operate as cards that win the game, yes Primeval Titan is more powerful. However, this is more of a consistency card that fills out the curve. The flex slots of Summoner's Pact and Primal Command currently fill this role in most versions. I think those would be a better comparison.
In essence, it's a Green Sun's Zenith that is also a win-con. The fact that this deck is built to generate tons of mana makes it a perfect shell for it as we can utilize both modes of the card.
I was talking about as compared to Carnage Tyrant (tutoring for Primeval Titan or Carnage Tyrant is basically the same thing, EXCEPT Titan dies to removal)...
It acts as a craterhoof finisher as well as a tutor. I can foresee tutoring for avenger of zendikar and then smashing with plants. On the other hand, because it can tutor for any color creature, that opens up a nice toolbox for us...although I'm not convinced that a straight devotion deck really has room for a huge tutor package, as we want to stay close to green.
This might be just a good sticky card that can fill in the gaps of the deck...adding more consistently as well as another win condition. It could replace primal command as a gap filler, and allow us to play more acidic slimes/thragtusks/etc. It seems very powerful, but I'm not quite sure the number, or what the full composition of a devotion deck would be with it yet.
Also makes Rosheen Meanderer more interesting
The Avenger tokens will get neither +X/+X nor haste. On the other hand, if you tutor up a Carnage Tyrant, you basically win with any trivial amount of chip damage.
Not sure if it's a card this deck wants to play, though. Primeval Titan does a similar job if your opponent doesn't have spot removal.
Unlike the new Karn, the new Ugin's a card that's somewhat interesting for the deck. The +1 creates a blocker and +1 CA when it dies, the -3 pops a pretty wide variety of permanents, and the static ability is pretty good.
The problem is that it's not strictly better than any of the cards currently in the deck, but new Ugin's a far more impactful card T3 than new Karn, and you don't have to get rid of half of your SB to use it.
EDIT: To clarify my latter statement, I don't think he'll be a mainstay because he doesn't help stabilize as much as any of our other 6-7 drops do, but unlike the new Karn, the new Ugin actually has immediate impact.
I can see the argument to playing him with an extremely limited wishboard like Lectrys was suggesting, running like 3-6 cards he can get (like Lattice, O-Stone, Ballista, Witchbane, Relic, Skite or something). This way you still have access to a 9-12 card sideboard for the relatively large number of games where Karn is just too slow. I still think it's too cute, but only time we'll tell.
One final point I'd like to make about "Karn wish for O-Stone" is that one of the major strengths of O-Stone is that it doesn't punish you for having T4 Tron (as is unfortunately often the case), or even missing Tron completely. "Karn wish for O-Stone" requires T3 Tron, and it "leaks" information about you having O-Stone on T4 (which means your opponent may play around it by not overextending or casting hand disruption). "Karn wish for O-Stone" is as good as an O-Stone in the best-case scenario, but in an average-case scenario it may or may not be.
It’s definitely a card to keep in mind for SB consolidation if the 1-card exile effect becomes more relevant in the future, though.
The big draw with Blast Zone is we can actually tutor for it if we draw Scrying/Map.
On the other hand, a lot of the TNN variants run 1 Emrakul to go off with Xenagos, so from that lens it wouldn't be the first time to run a niche tutor target.
Not sure if it's a card this deck wants to play, though. Primeval Titan does a similar job if your opponent doesn't have spot removal.
The problem is that it's not strictly better than any of the cards currently in the deck, but new Ugin's a far more impactful card T3 than new Karn, and you don't have to get rid of half of your SB to use it.
EDIT: To clarify my latter statement, I don't think he'll be a mainstay because he doesn't help stabilize as much as any of our other 6-7 drops do, but unlike the new Karn, the new Ugin actually has immediate impact.