Quote from Melkor »I like the single Blast Zone, it has done work for me
As for Force of Vigor, I am interested. one of our green cards is a big ask, but it's not for the games where one of them is what we need. it's for the games like the Affinity match i lost tonight, where we stumble even a little bit and they have too much going and our only chance is to blow a big hole in what they are doing and we don't have the resources for the other options. I beat a prison deck in a very long and challenging match tonight, if I had been able to blow up two artifacts with one card and just give up a copy of Scrying after I was already flooded, that would have been really nice instead of using Karn activations. this is not for when we have other outs. Legacy players don't use FoW proper when Negate will get the job done, this is for the games where we expect that we will have two solid targets, because if there are two things on the field in Modern that you wouldn't feel like it was a waste to Claim, you're in a rough spot.
Quote from Dusk707 »From WAR:
Prison Realm Ravnica at War Single Combat Callous Dismissal Totally Lost The Elderspell Price of Betrayal Spark Harvest Vraska's Finisher Chandra's Pyrohelix Chandra's Triumph Heartfire Sarkhan's Catharsis Angrath's Rampage Casualties of War Despark Domri's Ambush Dreadhorde Butcher Living Twister Mayhem Devil Ral's Outburst Blast Zone
This does not include any counters, discard spells, or other means to deal with walkers from previous sets (Bedevil comes to mind, along with Shock, Lightning Strike, and Vraska's Contempt). In short, there are a lot of ways to deal with walkers. The only color that can't on it's own is Green. Red and Black have the easiest time, but that's understandable as well.
Quote from Spsiegel1987 »They still have titans to beat face with so its not quite a beat down.
Quote from racerxen »Well here have a top 4 finish of Wish Board Tron at the lastest SCG Classic, and it keeps elements of the previous SB:
Quote from sicsmoo »Quote from racerxen »man you said what i was thinking. losing removal like “contortion” and wail hurts a bit but im also camp that we are just scratching the surface of an ideal 75 with karn. It’s very possible we keep the wish board to 4-6 slots. Lattice is really good, i cant stress how quick that ends a game. if you look at the recent 5-0 list it ran 3 tks, maybe we should do the same? its refreshing though to have something to try and innovate withI guess you mean this list: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1871207#online
The problem with that one is there's no Thragtusks.
What do you do against Grixis Shadow with no Thragtusks (and no Dismembers!)? You're relying so heavily on going GC into Bridge and hoping they don't have counters or artifact destruction, of which they have plenty post-board.
You have a similar problem against Burn. You have the ability to steal game 1's with your wishboard if you can get on the board fast enough (not a given by any means), but relying on that in post-board games is extremely shaky considering how much artifact destruction they bring in.
Thragtusk is an important card against Dredge as well, plus most GC lists (that one included) are shaving graveyard hate to fit everything in so this matchup almost always gets worse.
I wonder about the BG matchup as well. Thragtusk is our best sideboard card there. I guess you could argue that Great Creator makes up for the loss of Tusk because it's a low-curve card but the problem is it doesn't impact the board the turn it comes down. A lot of the time it's going to draw you a card (probably a good one, to be fair) and then just get eaten by one of their beaters. Maybe this one is close to a wash; I'd need to test it more.
I could go on but I wanna stress again that I don't think it matters which cards you take out to accommodate the wishboard. I think you lose some percentage points no matter what. There's a reason why this deck has looked the same for 2+ years - because it already has everything it needs against the field, and the wishboard doesn't improve on that.
Quote from racerxen »man you said what i was thinking. losing removal like “contortion” and wail hurts a bit but im also camp that we are just scratching the surface of an ideal 75 with karn. It’s very possible we keep the wish board to 4-6 slots. Lattice is really good, i cant stress how quick that ends a game. if you look at the recent 5-0 list it ran 3 tks, maybe we should do the same? its refreshing though to have something to try and innovate with
Quote from sicsmoo »Yeah I'm not really seeing the appeal of Bond.
This is where I'm at currently with the deck. The key card that I glossed over initially was Ensnaring Bridge. Not intuitively good for us but actually stops a lot of relevant things - Awoken Horror, Primeval Titan and Death's Shadow in particular. And I've also even been able to stop smaller creatures as well. Emptying our hand is not as difficult as you might think, especially when you consider London allows us better 6 and 5 card hands. Mull to a 5 of t3 Tron and Great Creator, fetch Bridge. Not bad at all.
This list seems pretty reasonable against the field, though further testing and tweaking of numbers/slots is certainly required.
Quote from Lectrys »Quote from SaltySips »Uh... how come we end up with Bond of Flourishing all of a sudden? The 3 life don‘t seem good enough to me - did I miss something?
To me, the 3 life and the ability to get any permanent with a Dig 3 are what pushes Bond of Flourishing to playability in Gx Tron for me. Oath of Nissa didn't look playable in Gx Tron to me because it cannot get artifacts.
In the meantime, the life gain from Bond of Flourishing has granted me an extra turn exactly once so far. The dig is a bit to the disappointing side in terms of getting me precisely what I want, but it does feel nice to dig further than a 1-deep cantrip after my opponent strips the tutors and Ancient Stirrings from my hand. I think it also got me an Ugin 1.0 in testing once when a regular cantrip rock would not have dug far enough, so maybe it does boost consistency noticeably enough after all. I definitely don't want 4 of it, though; I think that would demand green mana too much.
Quote from SaltySips »Uh... how come we end up with Bond of Flourishing all of a sudden? The 3 life don‘t seem good enough to me - did I miss something?
Quote from sicsmoo »Hayne's list is interesting. Tons of respect for the mirror there with 3 GQ in the 75 along with the 3 Surgicals.
Quote from Slivortal »2 Trons in MC London T8 - pretty standard builds - 3 Relic, 4 O-Stone, 2 Ugin, 19 lands (5 Forests). One build ran 4 Wurmcoil and the standard 2 Ulamog (Hayne), the other ran 3 Wurmcoil/1 MD Thragtusk and 1 Ulamog/1 World Breaker (Zhu). It looks like both players went 8-1-1 in the Swiss, so there shouldn't be much inflation for draft performance.
I'll post the lists once we have the full 75 (right now we don't have numbers on SB cards). Overall, Tron performed relatively average given its meta share - 12.5% in T8 vs 14.8% in field. So this should hopefully alleviate some banlist/mulligan doomsaying. Humans had 3 appearances in T8 though, which is pretty positive for our chances going forward (vs. like 10% of the field going in). Highest ranked in Swiss is Titanshift with multiple copies of MD Acid-Moss - ugh.
Quote from sicsmoo »Alright, I wasn't planning on testing Great Creator after my initial assessment of the card but community interest has been so strong that I thought I should give it a spin to be sure.
I played this list for 2 leagues - 8 card wishboard which is all I could justify without cutting into essential sideboard cards too much. It felt fine. Some matchups felt better, but more felt worse. I'm gonna go through the top 10 decks in the format and look at how the matchups change with this configuration.
Dredge first of all gets significantly worse because you're shaving grave-hate cards overall and mostly relying on Great Creator to tutor one up, on turn 3 at the earliest. This is not going to be good enough most of the time.
Grixis Shadow - the Great Creators looked pretty silly here, especially when I had to cut my 2nd and 3rd Dismembers, 3rd Relic and 3rd and 4th Thragtusks to make room for the package.
Phoenix - losing grave-hate and Dismembers, gaining...?
Amulet - worse because you shave TKS and cut Surgicals.
UWx and BGx - I think you improve a bit against UW but not much against BGx because they can pressure him so easily, compared to the 3rd and 4th Thragtusks which impact the board immediately and in a big way.
Burn - probably a minor improvement because fetching up something like Witchbane Orb game 1 is great, but you also might just die first/anyway, plus again, cutting Thragtusks hurts.
Humans - maybe a minor improvement because you effectively have 6 O-Stones, but this matchup is already great.
There are only 2 matchups where I would say Great Creator offers a significant improvement - the Tron mirror and Hardened Scales. Not coincidentally, these are the only 2 matchups where GC's static ability matters on its own. In the mirror, it becomes our second best turn-3 Tron play after Karn Liberated with the ability to fetch a Spyglass to shut off their potential Karn Liberated, and obviously why the static ability is good requires no explanation.
For Scales, again, 1-sided Stony Silence is strong, especially when you consider it shuts down their Darksteel Citadels as well, but it can be slow and they can still just attack and kill Karn.
I will mention decks like Titan Shift, Boggles, and Infect - yeah, getting Witchbane or Spellskite game 1 against these decks is great, but they're also each less than 2% of the metagame.
Now of course, this anaylsis is just based on the list I posted, and certainly you could play different cards and improve a particular matchup - having access to Torpor Orb against Amulet for example. But then you have to cut something and lose that edge in a different matchup.
People may suggest playing fewer copies of Great Creator. I'm skeptical about this as well because as you decrease his numbers, obviously you're less likely to draw him and so that makes it even harder to justify having all those narrow 1-ofs in your sideboard.
A note on Mycosynth Lattice - our deck does not need this card. It's a fun alternate win-con (that I actually found pretty hard to protect), but we already have plenty of things to end the game with that don't require putting 2 pieces together.
So in summary, I think Karn, the Great Creator is a very interesting card, a very versatile card and a very fun card. But does it improve Mono Green Tron against the field? I'm standing by my initial assessment with an emphatic no.
Quote from Caedes_PH »Hi guys, looking for suggestions on a good sideboard guide for most of the tier 1 decks currently out there right now and what do you guys think of the list and sideboard guide by Jim Davis posted at coolstuffinc? or maybe anyone has a link for sicsmoo's updated guide if there is a new one? I've been going back and forth from G-Tron and RG/Bant/Tron Eldrazi decks for years now and i simply want to focus on G-Tron right now and get a refresher. My last 5 weeks of play was pretty bad starting from 2-3, 2-2-1, 2-3, 2-2-1 and 2-3 respectively each week. I feel i need to review some stuff again as the articles i've focused on reading before was from the time of RG, BG and GW Tron. Thanks in advance mates.