Any thoughts on Cold-Eyed Selkie instead of some of the Silvergills? Slower to get onto the board and fulfill its ability's condition, but potentially a huge payoff.
I'd probably avoid this one. It makes keeping your vials on 2 more awkward, you don't get an immediate pay off, and the clock is slower. Selkie has to survive a turn and connect to recoup its value, which isn't always a guarantee. Selkie is coming down turn 3 and attacking on turn 4 which is a prime turn for your opponent to cast Anger of the Gods or Supreme Verdict, so it doesn't seem that great against control. Against the fast non-interactive decks that are at the top of the format today, the slower clock and higher cmc make him kind of clunky. Also, watch some of Nikachu's or Merfolk Joe's youtube videos and pay attention to how many attacks it takes to close out a game after turn 3. This isn't an exact science, but I think you'll find that a Selkie on turn 3 won't net you much more than a Silvergill. Say you get two attacks in with the Selkie before you kill them, well you really only are at parity with a Silvergill because the card you drew off the lethal attack is irrelevant, so to really pull ahead, you need to connect 3 times with the Selkie. In a grindy meta this could be alright, but I don't think that's where we're at.
The fact that it's any creature is definitely a plus, but my deck only runs 17 creatures so 5 mana for only the potential of recursion isn't worth it in my build. But as @PhroX said, in a creature heavy build it could be great.
I looked at Multani too. I could see getting tricky with multiple activations of Gaea's Cradle if he happens to be in the yard (tap, bounce it to hand, play it again and tap it). But my list only has Lotus Cobra to abuse landfall, and Mosswort Bridge is the only land in the deck with an etb effect. Outside of that, I don't feel the need for a big beater. But I won't completely rule it out because my opinions are formed by how my list operates. If you can take advantage of landfall then I can see this guy being pretty good. Especially with a way to sacrifice him and exploration effects, like Claws of Gix and Azusa. I have a feeling he may be better suited in an Omnath, Locus of Rage deck.
I personally never cared for Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and if you're going to run the 2 Boreal Druid you can probably afford to go down to 18 land.
Speaking of Boreal Druid, I think those two slots and the 19th land could be filled by some of the cards you are considering in the board. Maybe a mainboard Rec Sage and Selfless Spirit while keeping the 19th land or 1 Boreal Druid. That'll free up a slot in the board for another Rec Sage and Colossus.
FYI I think your list is missing Shamans. Also, Symbiote isn’t banned, it just hasn’t been printed in a modern legal set.
IT has Not Seen a Reprint because IT is too good.
Yes I forgot to write them down.
Of course they are in my list.
I wasn't trying to be smart by pointing that stuff out. I know I would want to edit my list to make it correct if I forgot something.
I can't confidently say if Wirewood would be too good or not. After the recent unbannings that had people worried modern would be unplayable turned out to be a minor blip in the format, I've become a lot more open to adding cards to the pool. The only real target we'd want to untap is Archdruid, but we don't have glimpse to abuse recasting whatever we bounced, or Birchlore Rangers for another source of mana. Not that two activations out of Archdruid isn't powerful, but Archdruid is no Gaea's Cradle so Symbiote being an insect powers it down a bit. Being able to bounce a Visioinary or Dwynen's Elite would actually be a pretty sweet grinding engine though.
I got a game in last night against Alesha, Chainer, and Merieke. I started with a mulligan to 5 with an opener of Exploration, land, land, Garruk Wildspeaker and an Oracle of Mul Daya. I was able to hit running lands for a turn 3 Oracle, but didn't get much value out of it before Merieke stole her. I landed Garruk, made a beast, and he survived a turn for me to ramp into the saddest Regal Force which only drew me two cards, but it was enough to start the engine as one of the cards was Rishkar's Expertise. Next turn I was able to cast the Expertise, drawing 5 from the Regal Force that was on the board, casting Eternal Witness off the Expertise to get back the Expertise. The game was over in the next few turns with the final turn going something like, Asuza, Lotus Cobra, putting Misty Rainforest into play from the graveyard 3 times (I had a Ramunap Excavator in play from a GSZ on a previous turn) and dropping Gaea's Cradle as my 4th and final land drop, making 20+ mana, casting Akroma's Memorial, getting it counter, Regrowting the Memorial, sticking the Memorial, casting Woodland Bellower putting Sylvan Safekeeper onto the field, creating 8 elementals off Safekeeper, -4 Garruk to give my team +3/+3 and trample and swinging about 40-50 damage at my 3 opponents.
The good news is that cards like Rishkar's Expertise can pull you right back into a game. The bad news is that I made no breakthroughs figuring out where to fit in the cards I'm still considering haha.
I could see cutting the Dark Depths package, replacing Stage and Dark Depths with another Snow-Covered Forest and something else from the cards I'm considering. I also could see cutting some of the removal creatures like Duplicant, Ulamog, and Worldbreaker to be less reactive and focus more on advancing my game plan. I just don't like the idea of not having utility to deal with problematic permanents.
By the way, I did end up cutting Noxious Revival in favor of Regrowth @Life1ess. I know that I had touted the perks of instant speed recursion with Revival, but looking back at all the times I've used it, I think I only remember one time where it mattered. Things really have to line up for it to be great and those situations rarely arise. First of all you have to have Noxious Revival in hand when someone targets your graveyard, and second of all you have to have a real bomb in your graveyard to make you want essentially give up a draw to use Revival. Truthfully, Revival is card disadvantage, and while the moments you get someone with it really stand out, in every other situation I wish it was just regrowth or eternal witness.
Worldly Tutor ended up taking Revival's spot, and I'm not sure why I wasn't running Worldly Tutor in the first place.
I've found that I've started to shy away from cards that have a high ceiling, but are situational. I cut Natural Affinity because I never have it in hand when someone has a Wrath, and outside of that situation it was never really something I wanted to cast. I realize Natural Affinity is a card that I just talked up in a post as well, so sorry for being a little hypocritical.
I play in a commander league every Tuesday night at my LGS. Normally I like to switch up the decks I play, but my love for this deck has been reignited and I want to focus on tuning up this list so I may run it all month.
Anyway, I thought I'd share my quick recap. It's pretty fun when you start off slowly and a couple of cards down and end up finishing miles ahead of everyone on board.
If board wipes are common, I'd try to fit in Natural Affinity. It will turn any wrath from an opponent into Devastation, but leave you with an army of 5/3s.
Does Packleader stand out as better than anything I'm currently running? I could see cutting Shamanic Revelation for it. It has the same cmc and doesn't require the army to be built to get the value from it. The life gain can be nice, but I'm not running it for that in the first place.
I've been considering Garruk's Packleader, but I'm not sure if his incremental effect is better than anything I'm currently running at the moment. I like that most of my one time use draw almost always hits 5 cards right away. With Garruk's Packleader, ideally you'd want him out before Titania, so when she starts to do her thing you start to net some cards, but unfortunately they have the same cmc. Elemental Bond works because it comes down on turn two or three and is ready to go when Titania hits the board.
Am I evaluating this guy correctly or am I overvaluing some of the other draw spells? I feel like I'm at the right number of draw effects in the deck so I'm probably looking at replacing something if I add in the Packleader. What do you guys think?
I think I'd rather cut some of the other graveyard recursion if I'm going to go that route, which I think is something to seriously consider. Noxious Revival has saved some pretty key cards by being instant speed, but I'm sure you have your own take on the deck. But I do agree with your over all opinion that maybe Regrowth could go.
Now that you talk about Nylea and Kamahl, I have a different perspective on Rhonas. I was just looking at new tech and thinking he seems powerful, but I hadn't made the comparison to those two cards, which would obviously be much better than Rhonas. Does anyone have experience with Nylea or is the effect unneeded? I have a lot of games in with the deck, but have never even considered Nylea in it. Kamahl, on the other hand, has actually been in my deck at one point, but I cut him because he was expensive to cast and activate. I've been served better by Craterhoof, Overwhelming Stampede, and Triumph of the Hordes, and I'm not sure I need a 4th finisher in the deck. His secondary ability is similar to what Natural Affinity can do, but more expensive. When I ran Natural Affinity, the times where I had it in hand and it lined up with someone else wrath were few and far between. I think I used it once to give a Craterhoof trigger a boost, but I never got to live the dream so I cut it. Outside of getting someone, I never found it useful.
How much ramp does everyone run? After many games I've become partial to the two mana ramp vs. Cultivate, Skyshroud Claim and the ilk. Now that I've switched to Snow-Covered Forests, I can run Into the North, which can also grab Dark Depths. Into the North is an easy card to slot in over Rampant Growth, but I'm wondering if I keep Rampant Growth and bring in Into the North over something else?
I appreciate the feed back. I'm always curious to hear other peoples experiences with cards, even if it doesn't line up with my own. It always gives me context of the cards in situations I haven't been in or considered.
Has anyone gotten any games in with Titania recently? I keep trying to narrow down the list of cards I want to try, but I seem to be going backwards.
I'm curious about Wayward Swordtooth. Another Exploration effect seems nice, though this one costs 3, but it does have the upside of being a 5/5. Turning on the City's Blessing in this deck doesn't seem like an issue.
Rhonas the Indomitable seems like another decent addition. It's almost always going to be able to attack and block and a mana sink to give your guys trample seems alright. My concern here is that I'm usually winning with an all out attack and I'm not sure if he's necessary. The ability to give a token trample and peck away at someones life total might not be a bad thing for the deck though.
On the surface Necropotence definitely looks like a nonbo with a reanimator deck, but it's generally not your turn 3 play. You want to try to get Liliana down and flipped early, and then protect her with a big reanimation target or board control. Then, when Necropotence comes down late game it will keep your hand full. This means you should always have some fodder to pitch to Liliana without worry about what zone it ends up in and ideally enough mana to just start casting your reanimation targets. When you get to the point where you can cast your reanimation targets is when I find the game is close to an end. Pitching and reanimating a Grave Titan early is flashy, but usually when you're facing 3 players with full grips it's going to meet an immediate end. When you can cast Gray Merchant, and then sacrifice it, and then reanimate it, and sacrifice it and reanimate it again is where you want to be. Usually this type of play is only available when you've developed your board.
To combat the token strategy I would try to fit a Massacre Wurm in there. He'll punish all your opponents with an army of small creatures and shut down any infinite sacrificing loops until they can deal with him.
Shriekmaw and Bone Shredder, while restricted in what they can kill, are good ways to flip Liliana quickly.
I'd probably avoid this one. It makes keeping your vials on 2 more awkward, you don't get an immediate pay off, and the clock is slower. Selkie has to survive a turn and connect to recoup its value, which isn't always a guarantee. Selkie is coming down turn 3 and attacking on turn 4 which is a prime turn for your opponent to cast Anger of the Gods or Supreme Verdict, so it doesn't seem that great against control. Against the fast non-interactive decks that are at the top of the format today, the slower clock and higher cmc make him kind of clunky. Also, watch some of Nikachu's or Merfolk Joe's youtube videos and pay attention to how many attacks it takes to close out a game after turn 3. This isn't an exact science, but I think you'll find that a Selkie on turn 3 won't net you much more than a Silvergill. Say you get two attacks in with the Selkie before you kill them, well you really only are at parity with a Silvergill because the card you drew off the lethal attack is irrelevant, so to really pull ahead, you need to connect 3 times with the Selkie. In a grindy meta this could be alright, but I don't think that's where we're at.
I looked at Multani too. I could see getting tricky with multiple activations of Gaea's Cradle if he happens to be in the yard (tap, bounce it to hand, play it again and tap it). But my list only has Lotus Cobra to abuse landfall, and Mosswort Bridge is the only land in the deck with an etb effect. Outside of that, I don't feel the need for a big beater. But I won't completely rule it out because my opinions are formed by how my list operates. If you can take advantage of landfall then I can see this guy being pretty good. Especially with a way to sacrifice him and exploration effects, like Claws of Gix and Azusa. I have a feeling he may be better suited in an Omnath, Locus of Rage deck.
Speaking of Boreal Druid, I think those two slots and the 19th land could be filled by some of the cards you are considering in the board. Maybe a mainboard Rec Sage and Selfless Spirit while keeping the 19th land or 1 Boreal Druid. That'll free up a slot in the board for another Rec Sage and Colossus.
I wasn't trying to be smart by pointing that stuff out. I know I would want to edit my list to make it correct if I forgot something.
I can't confidently say if Wirewood would be too good or not. After the recent unbannings that had people worried modern would be unplayable turned out to be a minor blip in the format, I've become a lot more open to adding cards to the pool. The only real target we'd want to untap is Archdruid, but we don't have glimpse to abuse recasting whatever we bounced, or Birchlore Rangers for another source of mana. Not that two activations out of Archdruid isn't powerful, but Archdruid is no Gaea's Cradle so Symbiote being an insect powers it down a bit. Being able to bounce a Visioinary or Dwynen's Elite would actually be a pretty sweet grinding engine though.
The good news is that cards like Rishkar's Expertise can pull you right back into a game. The bad news is that I made no breakthroughs figuring out where to fit in the cards I'm still considering haha.
I could see cutting the Dark Depths package, replacing Stage and Dark Depths with another Snow-Covered Forest and something else from the cards I'm considering. I also could see cutting some of the removal creatures like Duplicant, Ulamog, and Worldbreaker to be less reactive and focus more on advancing my game plan. I just don't like the idea of not having utility to deal with problematic permanents.
By the way, I did end up cutting Noxious Revival in favor of Regrowth @Life1ess. I know that I had touted the perks of instant speed recursion with Revival, but looking back at all the times I've used it, I think I only remember one time where it mattered. Things really have to line up for it to be great and those situations rarely arise. First of all you have to have Noxious Revival in hand when someone targets your graveyard, and second of all you have to have a real bomb in your graveyard to make you want essentially give up a draw to use Revival. Truthfully, Revival is card disadvantage, and while the moments you get someone with it really stand out, in every other situation I wish it was just regrowth or eternal witness.
Worldly Tutor ended up taking Revival's spot, and I'm not sure why I wasn't running Worldly Tutor in the first place.
I've found that I've started to shy away from cards that have a high ceiling, but are situational. I cut Natural Affinity because I never have it in hand when someone has a Wrath, and outside of that situation it was never really something I wanted to cast. I realize Natural Affinity is a card that I just talked up in a post as well, so sorry for being a little hypocritical.
I play in a commander league every Tuesday night at my LGS. Normally I like to switch up the decks I play, but my love for this deck has been reignited and I want to focus on tuning up this list so I may run it all month.
Anyway, I thought I'd share my quick recap. It's pretty fun when you start off slowly and a couple of cards down and end up finishing miles ahead of everyone on board.
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth
Land (43)
1x Ancient Tomb
1x City of Traitors
1x Command Beacon
1x Crystal Vein
1x Dark Depths
1x Deserted Temple
1x Drownyard Temple
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Dust Bowl
1x Evolving Wilds
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Havenwood Battleground
1x Hickory Woodlot
1x Maze of Ith
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Mosswort Bridge
1x Mouth of Ronom
1x Petrified Field
14x Snow-Covered Forest
1x Strip Mine
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Terramorphic Expanse
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Yavimaya Hollow
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Nissa, Vital Force
Creature (17)
1x Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1x Bane of Progress
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Duplicant
1x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
1x Lotus Cobra
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer Flip
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Ramunap Excavator
1x Regal Force
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1x Woodland Bellower
1x World Breaker
Instant (9)
1x Beast Within
1x Chord of Calling
1x Constant Mists
1x Crop Rotation
1x Harrow
1x Krosan Grip
1x Momentous Fall
1x Realms Uncharted
1x Worldly Tutor
Enchantment (5)
1x Concordant Crossroads
1x Elemental Bond
1x Exploration
1x Greater Good
1x Sylvan Library
1x Edge of Autumn
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Into the North
1x Life from the Loam
1x Life's Legacy
1x Natural Order
1x Nature's Lore
1x Overwhelming Stampede
1x Regrowth
1x Rishkar's Expertise
1x Scapeshift
1x Shamanic Revelation
1x Splendid Reclamation
1x Sylvan Scrying
1x Triumph of the Hordes
Artifact (8)
1x Akroma's Memorial
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Expedition Map
1x Mox Diamond
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
1x Zuran Orb
Maybe Creature (4)
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Garruk's Packleader
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Wayward Swordtooth
Maybe Instant (1)
1x Hunter's Insight
Maybe Artifact (1)
1x Mana Crypt
Maybe Sorcery (1)
1x Reap and Sow
How do you guys feel about burst draw vs. incremental draw in Titania?
I feel like I have enough draw cards in the deck and my current draw suite is this...
1x Nissa, Vital Force
1x Elemental Bond
1x Greater Good
1x Sylvan Library
1x Momentous Fall
1x Life's Legacy
1x Rishkar's Expertise
1x Shamanic Revelation
1x Regal Force
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
I've been considering Garruk's Packleader, but I'm not sure if his incremental effect is better than anything I'm currently running at the moment. I like that most of my one time use draw almost always hits 5 cards right away. With Garruk's Packleader, ideally you'd want him out before Titania, so when she starts to do her thing you start to net some cards, but unfortunately they have the same cmc. Elemental Bond works because it comes down on turn two or three and is ready to go when Titania hits the board.
Am I evaluating this guy correctly or am I overvaluing some of the other draw spells? I feel like I'm at the right number of draw effects in the deck so I'm probably looking at replacing something if I add in the Packleader. What do you guys think?
Now that you talk about Nylea and Kamahl, I have a different perspective on Rhonas. I was just looking at new tech and thinking he seems powerful, but I hadn't made the comparison to those two cards, which would obviously be much better than Rhonas. Does anyone have experience with Nylea or is the effect unneeded? I have a lot of games in with the deck, but have never even considered Nylea in it. Kamahl, on the other hand, has actually been in my deck at one point, but I cut him because he was expensive to cast and activate. I've been served better by Craterhoof, Overwhelming Stampede, and Triumph of the Hordes, and I'm not sure I need a 4th finisher in the deck. His secondary ability is similar to what Natural Affinity can do, but more expensive. When I ran Natural Affinity, the times where I had it in hand and it lined up with someone else wrath were few and far between. I think I used it once to give a Craterhoof trigger a boost, but I never got to live the dream so I cut it. Outside of getting someone, I never found it useful.
How much ramp does everyone run? After many games I've become partial to the two mana ramp vs. Cultivate, Skyshroud Claim and the ilk. Now that I've switched to Snow-Covered Forests, I can run Into the North, which can also grab Dark Depths. Into the North is an easy card to slot in over Rampant Growth, but I'm wondering if I keep Rampant Growth and bring in Into the North over something else?
I appreciate the feed back. I'm always curious to hear other peoples experiences with cards, even if it doesn't line up with my own. It always gives me context of the cards in situations I haven't been in or considered.
I'm curious about Wayward Swordtooth. Another Exploration effect seems nice, though this one costs 3, but it does have the upside of being a 5/5. Turning on the City's Blessing in this deck doesn't seem like an issue.
Rhonas the Indomitable seems like another decent addition. It's almost always going to be able to attack and block and a mana sink to give your guys trample seems alright. My concern here is that I'm usually winning with an all out attack and I'm not sure if he's necessary. The ability to give a token trample and peck away at someones life total might not be a bad thing for the deck though.
As always.... what do you cut?
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth
Land (43)
1x Ancient Tomb
1x City of Traitors
1x Command Beacon
1x Crystal Vein
1x Dark Depths
1x Deserted Temple
1x Drownyard Temple
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Dust Bowl
1x Evolving Wilds
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Havenwood Battleground
1x Hickory Woodlot
1x Maze of Ith
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Mosswort Bridge
1x Mouth of Ronom
1x Petrified Field
14x Snow-Covered Forest
1x Strip Mine
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Terramorphic Expanse
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Yavimaya Hollow
Planeswalker (2)
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Nissa, Vital Force
1x Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1x Bane of Progress
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Duplicant
1x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
1x Lotus Cobra
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer Flip
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Ramunap Excavator
1x Regal Force
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1x Woodland Bellower
1x World Breaker
Instant (9)
1x Beast Within
1x Chord of Calling
1x Constant Mists
1x Crop Rotation
1x Harrow
1x Krosan Grip
1x Momentous Fall
1x Noxious Revival
1x Realms Uncharted
Enchantment (5)
1x Concordant Crossroads
1x Elemental Bond
1x Exploration
1x Greater Good
1x Sylvan Library
Sorcery (15)
1x Edge of Autumn
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Life from the Loam
1x Life's Legacy
1x Natural Order
1x Nature's Lore
1x Overwhelming Stampede
1x Rampant Growth
1x Regrowth
1x Rishkar's Expertise
1x Scapeshift
1x Shamanic Revelation
1x Splendid Reclamation
1x Sylvan Scrying
1x Triumph of the Hordes
1x Akroma's Memorial
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Expedition Map
1x Mox Diamond
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
1x Zuran Orb
Maybeboard
Sorcery (5)
1x Into the North
1x Reap and Sow
1x Restore
1x Seasons Past
1x Three Visits
Creature (5)
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Garruk's Packleader
1x Rhonas the Indomitable
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Wayward Swordtooth
Instant(3)
1x Hunter's Insight
1x Natural Affinity
1x Worldly Tutor
Artifact (1)
1x Mana Crypt
Shriekmaw and Bone Shredder, while restricted in what they can kill, are good ways to flip Liliana quickly.
I would also second @shermanido37's suggestions for cuts. The reanimation cards like Zombify and Hell's Caretaker can be replaced with more efficient reanimation like Reanimate, Animate Dead, Necromancy, Dread Return, and even Beacon of Unrest, which can nab a lost artifact in a pinch. Vindictive Lich could be Merciless Executioner. Rise of the Dark Realms is very powerful, but very slow and not something you can reanimate and abuse like Sepulchral Primordial. I like the concept behind Relentless Dead, but in practice it requires a lot of mana to take advantage of it. Ancient Craving could probably be Night's Whisper or Sign in Blood, but ideally it would be Necropotence. Kokusho, the Evening Star is another card you may want to consider. He can fill in as a redundant Gray Merchant of Asphodel.
Liliana was my first edh deck and I still love it. Here is my list for reference so you can take into account my biases towards cards. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/22-02-18-liliana-control/