Second, let me talk about tiers. "It needs something to push it into Tier 2 and I'm not sure what exactly that is." I can tell you exactly what it needs - people to play it. Tiers aren't based strictly on power level but on number (and consistency) of high-profile finishes. For the most part the two are intertwined, because it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Nevertheless, without people bringing 8Rack to events, even if it was the deck with the highiest power level in Modern, it wouldn't be even tier 2. At least that's my understanding of it, ktkenshinx could quickly prove me wrong though.
This is 100% correct, though I'd wager the vast majority of people who post on MTGS are clueless about it.
Also one other thing at WMP: 8Rack is not stagnating. If the only card we get for the next 3 sets is Asylum Visitor, I would consider it major upgrade to the fundamental strat. AV has finally given us a card drawing engine that is compatible with the 8Rack shell. But its not just AV, there are a lot of "pretty close" cards out there like Lupine Pred and possibly the new 1cc zombie token guy. The delerium Hymn fits into the "close" category as well. Honestly its pretty rare for an established MOdern deck, be it Jund or Delver to get a new card that completely upgrades an existing piece. Most of the new cards are sidegrades as you mentioned, so for 8Rack to get a huge bomb like AV its kind of a big deal.
Valid points but I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. Dark Confidant fills the same roll essentially of Visitor. Its been around for a while. I still view it as a "sidegrade" over Bob. Maybe time and play will show differently as you suggest. Lupine Pred again seems like a sidegrade over Nyxathid. Cryptbreaker seems like a sidegrade or slight downgrade over Pack Rat. I agree some interesting cards have popped up recently but none of them seem like "breakout" cards for our deck. I'll keep watching the results listed on the cards above. If we see an uptick of 8rack being played we will get our answer.
If you're wondering what upgrades and additions I've seen recently in other decks, there are a few off the top of my head.
Kalitas in Jund. A definite upgrade. Prized Amalgam in Dredge.
Nahiri in Nahiri Jeskai
World Breaker and new Ulamog in Tron after its downgrade with losing Eye of Ugin
Thought-Knot Seer in a few decks
and this new Eldritch Evolution looks like it could be an addition to certain green creature based decks, maybe Abzhan.
It just seems we never get that card that puts us over the top or is a definitive upgrade over an existing card in our deck. Feels like stagnation to me but maybe you are right, stagnation might not be the correct word to describe it, maybe like unfortunate lack of additional firepower. If you take my meaning. Share some results with AV with me and maybe I can change my mind.
I think there's merit with what WMP is getting at. After all, the majority of our spells are discard effects which are most potent in the opening turns of the game. I really like the idea of opening the game with twin IoK's. Historically fast mana is SUPER good. It all comes down to at what cost do you get the fast mana?
But I don't know how well the cards in question really mesh with a most 8rack lists.
The T1 double discard is most tempting prospect of faster mana in 8rack, but simian spirit guide doesn't do much to help us there with its red R mana. The notion is great, you can draw parallels with the acceleration of Lotus Petal which is just a bonkers card where its legal, but the mana is just frustratingly not in the right color for accelerated discard. If it was black mana, then I'd probably be jumping at it in a heartbeat.
Gemstone Caverns can do the job of getting us T1 BB, but there are a lot of qualifiers on that card and classic 8rack doesn't really run that many CMC 1 instants that we can use to maximize that T0 land by casting during our opponent's first turn.
edit:
The two cards are IMO a better fit for the 8rackdos variant with its higher concentration of instants (namely lightning bolt) and ofcourse red spells that can utilize SSG's red mana. Gemstone cavern might be able to be squeezed into some more classic 8rack lists to get some extra speed every now and then.
That is what Graven Cairns shines at. You can get BBB on turn one with Gemstone Caverns, Graven Cairns and a SSG. It almost does really require running a BR 8rack list, not mono-black although you could use the "package" to do so. (The package being 4 Gemstone Caverns, 4 Graven Cairns and 4 Simian Spirit Guide) That eats up a lot of slots though and in my testing Caverns,Cairns and SSG doesn't come up but about every one in 9 or 10 games. As you say they fit better with my BR list but Gemstone Caverns could be used on its own in mono-black. Mulling to 6 or 5 to catch a Gemstone Caverns letting you go Hellbent earlier for an Asylum Visitor could be tempting I suppose. Turn One Wrench Mind is fun as all H#$%.
Finished up my Game One on the draw testing vs. Infect tonight. 4-6 for a 40% win percentage on the draw overall.
Highlights:
8 games with turn one acceleration. Either Gemstone Caverns, SSG or a combination of the two.
2 Bridge lock games. But they were played on turn 3 and 4 respectively. (Supporting your theory FearDReaper.)
1 Bridge on turn 2 but lost that game.
T1 Dreadbore on a Noble Hierarch
T2 Bolt and WM; Won that game!
T1 WM, T2 WM and Bolt! Eventual Bridge lock, Won that game!
T1 Thoughtseize and Bolt. That was fun but lost.
another T1 WM
my favorite and last game for the win too = Turn ZERO Lightning Bolt. (Gemstone Caverns put into play before my turn, tapped for R for the Bolt killing Glistener Elf) followed by a Turn 1 Wrench Mind then Turn 2 Liliana and Turn 3 Double Rack. That game was fun.
Some improvements still need to be made. I may go back to 2 MB Terminate over Dreadbore but I worry about the Tron matchup (and a possible Nahiri Jeskai one as well). Also I really want to put in a full 4 Bolts. I'd have to pull the 2 KCommands which would leave me without any artifact hate for game one. I need to think about it.
I will need to go back and run 10 to 12 games each of these match ups on the PLAY as well to see what the win rates are and how the acceleration plays out. The speed helps at certain times and at others it doesn't seem so. I do think it is opponent deck/matchup dependent though. I will continue to test.
Next on the list. Dredge. This one I have some definite worries about. Looking forward to it though. Sorry it takes a while as again I'm testing in paper.
Thanks. I didn't know if the list was welcome in the thread so I didn't post it up or link it.
Yes the core is there. It has holes. With speed comes a lack of consistency (and a little "power") If you give it a run feel free to test it out but if I could make a couple of recommendations. Don't be afraid to mulligan to 6 or even 5 on the draw to land a Gemstone Caverns or SSG in your opening hand. With 4 copies of GC it comes up quite often in the opening 7 on its own. In fact it isn't at all rare to have 2 in the opening hand which makes it nice to exile one for the other. Mull to 6 and it will pop up as well. I haven't done any testing of Game Ones on the play yet, but I would again say don't be afraid to mull to 6 looking for a SSG. Other than the acceleration it pretty much plays like 8rack with a red splash. Graven Cairns is a key enabler of 2 or 3 B on turn one or two. It is possible to have 3 B turn one on the draw. I've done it several times. It is possible to achieve a Lily/Bridge lock but without a Rack it can be undone. Its not perfect. Like I said I'm still in the process of testing it. There is much work to be done. Sideboard is something I haven't even addressed yet and I have some ideas from the recent talk here. You'll get a goofy grin on your face when you cast that first turn Wrench Mind, two Thoughtseizes or TS and RC. Or when you cast the rare turn 1 Lily, Bridge or KCommand it can be pretty nifty. (I'm starting to think about dropping the KCommands into the side to run a full playset of Lightning Bolt as well, time will tell on this one. Dreadbore may go back to Terminate in the MB as well.) Best of luck if you give it a run, I'll try to help if I can as I'm still learning "quicker" lines of play with it.
What are the most "broken" cards that would been introduced if we moved back the sets?
There probably are some cards but I'd bet one determining factor would be the Storm mechanic in Scourge. MaRo has stated something to the effect that it will more than likely never be revisited. And even come up with his "Storm Scale" of revisiting mechanics.
I'm fine with where Modern draws the line and glad 8/9 editions are included.
The more I think about it I hope nothing happens on Monday in Modern.
With the ability to go Hellbent on turn 2 with the right cards in hand and the right draw, it sets up Bridge lock turn 2 (save a 0 power creature). GG got through turn 1, but on turn 2 GG and his buddy Monastery Swiftspear(or another GG) don't hit you for 4 more damage after a Bolt or Lava Spike. Again, not regularly, but it is a possible line of play.
Your second scenario is one that is awesome, but requires to be on the play turn one with 2 SSG's in hand and a Graven Cairns. I will be getting around to that (on the play) testing eventually. Looking to pull that off as well. It won't present itself as much as the first scenario I mentioned, but it is a definite line of play.
Also I understand AV is right down our alley but I see it as a "side-grade" (not an upgrade or downgrade) over Dark Confidant. Now I suppose if I can mull to 5 or 6 and jump the curve on AV with my strategy to turn 1 with Hellbent on turn 2 it may be a slight upgrade. I'll keep that one in mind as well.
Here's a thought for those that love Pack Rat. How about a turn one Pack Rat (with a possible Lightning Bolt thrown in) then turn 2 copy that rat? Another possible line of play.
while the bridge is a) expensive b) slow and c) It can be removed.
I wanted to address this. A turn 1 Bridge is not slow, on the contrary, its lightning fast. With the "free" mana of a SSG and Gemstone Caverns, it is not expensive. It can be removed but there aren't a lot of decks running around with artifact removal in Game One. Yes there are some and Abrupt Decay is rampant. Games 2 and 3 I will take your advice and consider siding out Bridge in favor of Asylum Visitor or more removal/discard. Kind of like a mini-transformational switch to try to catch the opponent siding in artifact removal against Bridge and siding out removal out because of the creature-less deck they see I have. Believe me I know the ability of Asylum Visitor. I also know its drawbacks (dies to anything). I bought a playset a while back. Its there if needed.
I always encourage valid critique. And its appreciated. I do listen. My estimation is that just running Pack Rat or adding AV in the same old manner that 8rack has been played for years is still not enough to push this deck to Tier 2. Wizards is not printing cards that make large strides in the power of our deck. They are printing marginal upgrades or "side-grades" as I call some things. Other decks are seeing greater gains. Other decks are popping up due to the power of synergies and different strategies. In my eyes 8rack is stagnating. It needs something to push it into Tier 2 and I'm not sure what exactly that is. But I'm going to try some "out of the box" avenues.
I like the way the route the conversation has taken. If we don't try new tools or card combinations we will keep stuck on Tier 3.
Thank you. I'm glad you are open to ideas. Even fringe ones like I'm trying. I won't post it up here but if you'd like to visit the 8Rackdos thread, which I can link, you can see my list there. I'm not running Spellskite, but I like the thought and will keep it in mind while testing.
And I swear MTGGoldfish is lurking this thread because here you go Pack Rat fans. It is a Vintage Deck, but Pack Rat nonetheless.
Love the "Out of the Cellar" reference. Any GenXers like me might remember that album by RATT.
And Saffron Olive on the site evidently is infatuated with it as well. Check out the deck list at the link. Glowing praise of the card in this goofball deck.
I mean if we had dark ritual it might be a different story, but we dont.
In my current BR list I can run a facsimile. 3 mana available at times turn one on the draw (albeit not consistently). 2 mana available on the play (albeit not consistently). It can lead to some interesting and powerful turn one plays.
Thoughtseize, Wrench Mind
Wrench Mind, Lightning Bolt
Liliana
Bridge (with a chance to go Hellbent turn 2 handy against Affinity and Naya Burn puking out their hands)
Thoughtseize, Terminate
Thoughtseize, Raven's Crime, Lightning Bolt
Kolaghan's Command
RC,RC,Bolt
RC,Terminate
TS,RC,Bolt
In limited testing I have pulled most of these off. Turn 1, 2 mana combinations of 1 cmc spells or a Wrench Mind is nice as well. Sometimes it works, other times the usual 8rack weaknesses show up and negate any curve jumping. Mulling to 6 or 5 to find the opening cards helps in achieving Hellbent for Bridge as well. If you don't like it that's fine keep playing Pack Rat and I'll play it my way. No need to discuss this further with you.
I agree that you can't rush into 3cmc card just because we are desperate to control the board.
I respectfully disagree. Control is control. Set the control earlier and give the opponent less turns to do their thing.
I agree with Memory Lapse here. While I relly like your idea of Simian Spirit Guide, I don't think it fixes the problems with the bridge syrategy. Why would you even want a T1 bridge in the first place? It's going to do effectively nothing that turn unless you "blow your wad on Turn 1" as MemoryLapse so delicately out it. Instead of speeding up a slow strategy that most of us have decided ineffective, why not speed up the strategy that the rest of us have embraced. Leave the bridge in the SB and Start Playing AV. Try out Pack Rat or go Esperino's route with lots of removal.
In a creatureless deck, Bridge is vital. I'm not running the Mutavaults, Inkmoth Nex's, Rats, Visitors or whatevers out there. I can hard cast a SSG, that's it. And in testing I have and yep its even got in some damage to accelerate the clock. Chump blocker at times as well. A turn 1 or 2 Bridge and going Hellbent to activate it wholly on turn 2 or 3 against a creature based aggro deck is always helpful.
There is just too much removal out there for me to want to run creatures at this time. I could see AV or Bob as a card draw engine possible. I'm keeping those in mind. But again removal is everywhere. And frankly if I'm going to start running creatures I'm almost already at Jund and I should just make the jump as that deck is STRONG.
I would keep in mind the heavy removal route though. I could see myself playing it possibly. A BW version with Path to Exile seems tempting I admit. Wish I could jump the curve with white.
No one is going to talk me out of it. I'll test what I please. Its another avenue of 8rack and more options are always better than less. Hey its not for everyone for sure. This thread should be for ideas of exploration of the deck as well, not just Pack Rat this, Pack Rat that. Gentlemen, there is a reason 8rack isn't even tier 2. I'm not saying I have the answer, far from it. But WE need to find the answers somehow or this deck will forever be a fringe strategy that isn't taken seriously. I know that's not a popular thing to say. I'm not trying to hurt feelings. Good luck with the strategies of your choice. I mean that. I'm off to try mine and if I see something good here I'll give it a spin. I hope you'll all keep an open mind. I'll try the same.
As for my speed comment. I'm not pushing we become a fast deck, I'm promoting putting some speed into our deck so we can control/stall them faster. Waiting around to play spells on curve while opponents aren't following that same restriction is a recipe for disaster. Decks are getting faster plain and simple, we need to adapt to that quickness as well. When we are losing on turn 4 and turn 5 (even with our best efforts to slow them) to fast decks it doesn't matter how much control we were planning to play on curve. I'm looking to speed things up with my list and have some encouraging results so far. Ever want to cast a Turn 1 Liliana?
Regardless I think we need to adapt to a meta that is changing to fast creature based decks. We aren't getting the spells to power our deck up, so speeding our "control" up looks to be a viable option.
I kind of understand what you are saying here, but a lot of it doesn't make sense to me. You are worried about fast aggro type decks so you think the way we get quicker is to forgo critters in favor of more control? I don't understand that. Bridge is too slow to help you vs Zoo. Bitterblossom is suicide in a card vs zoo. If you want to stall out speedy decks, put your bridges in the side and main deck some value critters of your own. Asylum Visitor is an amazing card for this purpose at 2cc. It will trade with any zoo or burn critter, likely stalling a full turn when it does so. Nyxathid, Lupine Prototype and perhaps even Cryptbreaker are potentially more options to accomplish the goal you are talking about.
My point is that while I agree the format is fast paced, I disagree and do not understand your way of adapting to it. In fact, I think you should be doing the exact opposite of that.
I have nothing against AV in certain lists for sure and I see the value of card draw. I'm not playing Bitterblossom either in my list but I could see where some lists would want it. I bolded above what I'd like to discuss.
How about a Turn 1 Ensnaring Bridge and Hellbent by Turn 2? How about Turn 1 Thoughtseize AND Wrench Mind? In some recent testing I have pulled both off, as well as a Turn 1 Liliana. Some other nifty ahead of the curve plays have been made as well, to varying success. I've gone into more detail in the 8rackdos thread so I won't bring it here other than to mention it. It can be discussed there. Speeding up the plays ahead of the usual can throw an opponent off strategy. Instead of Turn 1 Discard, Turn 2 Wrench Mind or Removal, Turn 3 Lily or Bridge I am trying to open up those same plays a turn or two earlier. I find it pretty fun and again I'm going through a long process of testing that is going to take a while as I play in paper. Opponents know what to expect with 8rack and which turns those plays will happen. I'm trying to shake the first 3 turns up to give myself a burst of speed and put pressure on earlier than what would normally be expected in 8rack. Its a different approach for sure and really only possible in BR and BG 8rack lists. Whether or not anything comes from it I guess time will tell. Again I think the best way to explain it is moving the usual plays up a turn or two or increasing turn 1, 2 and 3 plays. It lets you achieve Hellbent earlier as well. Your suggestions of Nyxathid and Lupine Predator could fit in my list for sure, I will keep them in mind. After turn 3 it plays out like usual 8rack. Its a bit different and not for everyone I'm sure. I definitely don't want to be doing the opposite and slowing down. If I strike out, I strike out but the current trend in the meta is fast and getting faster and I feel the need to at least keep up.
Yep its why I'm testing things out against "worst-case scenario" decks and situations.
Testing against Infect right now 1-2 currently, once again playing Game Ones always on the draw. Switching to Dreadbore over Terminate in the starting 60 is hurting a bit already, but that is why I would side those out in games 2 and 3. This is all about maximizing game one worst case scenarios while still retaining the "8rackyness" of the deck.
There are several creature based decks I'm going to play where Bridge will be far more relevant. I see the meta moving more towards these as well. What I'm trying to accomplish is jumping the curve and giving the deck a little boost of speed. It IS working. A turn 2 Lightning Bolt AND Wrench Mind on Infect pretty much sealed the win for me earlier today. It does have its drawbacks though. I am sacrificing a little consistency and removal for the speed aspect. I like it so far. If I could accelerate white I might try it. SSG is a key card to play ahead of the curve (Gemstone Caverns even more so), but it does have a price.
I will be testing against some fast creature based decks soon. Namely Goblins(8whack), Elves, Dredge, Living End and Bogles. I also plan on Jund, Eggs Combo, Abzhan Combo and few other fringe decks. If I can get Merfolk, Ad Nauseum, Grixis Control and Jeskai Nahiri proxied up those will get a run as well.
I'm not going for "speed" per se. I'm trying to jump the curve on turns 1-3 to try to position myself better against all the fast decks out there. Too many times it is game over by turn 4 with a lot of these decks and I'm trying to mitigate that. Its not for everyone. But I sure am having fun making this plays a turn or two ahead of the USUAL lines of play.
10 games again all on the draw with the new list. Went 2-10. Yep Tron is a bugger vs. 8rack. Remember I'm practicing Game Ones and always on the draw to get some numbers and data. Post SB and win-rates will change.
Highlights:
Turn 1 Liliana happened!!! Won that game. One of only 2 wins vs. RG Tron. Notable if you ask me as RG Tron may be one of our toughest match ups.
Turn 2 Wrench Mind once.
Turn 1 Wrench Mind followed by a Turn 2 Liliana. Won that game as well. Again, jumping the curve let me win the only other game vs. RG Tron.
Turn 1 Ensnaring Bridge. This was cool but vs. RG Tron not that great. Karn took care of it Turn 3.
Even if I don't have a Gemstone Mine or SSG in my opening 7, Mulling to 6 often brings one up. There were maybe only 2 or 3 of those 10 games where I kept a hand that I couldn't accelerate.
Some things I learned. Even though I HATE the life loss. I need to swap in Thoughtseize for Inquisition of Kozilek. Whiffing on IoK is back breaking vs. Tron. Also I need to swap Dreadbore in for Terminate. Not being able to kill walkers Game One is tantamount to disaster. This would also help against Jeskai Nahiri decks or Jund with their Lily's.
These 2 tweaks and I'm on to another matchup. Infect is next!
Slipping back into the Pack Rat strategy for those that play them. What are your thoughts on Cryptbreaker? Strictly worse due to the tap function? Just B seems appealing to cast. And 2 mana instead of 3 for the token seems value on first inspection. And I could see actually running this with Ensnaring Bridge due to the card drawing ability of tapping 3 Zombies. I'm not going that route but if you like Pack Rat and want to run MB Bridge, this could be an option, albeit one that doesn't seem great just marginal. Thoughts?
At 1cc its probably worth taking a look at. Gut feeling tells me Rat is better because it takes over an empty board so fast. But regarding your statement that 8Rack is a Turn6+ deck in a Turn 4 format...so what?
A Turn 4 format means the fast, all in, committed decks represent lethal damage on turn 4 when unmolested. But control decks tend deal with their threats in a timely manner thus turning a turn 4 deck into a turn 6+ affair. We drag fast decks into extra innings where we thrive, thats the whole point of 8Rack. We aren't trying to race fast decks we are trying to stall them.
I don't think it is better than Rat on first inspection either. My interest would be suggesting it to someone running a full 4 Bridge in the MB. Rat and Bridge just don't mesh well enough together. This and Bridge seem to have a slightly better fit, even though they aren't fully synergistic either.
As for my speed comment. I'm not pushing we become a fast deck, I'm promoting putting some speed into our deck so we can control/stall them faster. Waiting around to play spells on curve while opponents aren't following that same restriction is a recipe for disaster. Decks are getting faster plain and simple, we need to adapt to that quickness as well. When we are losing on turn 4 and turn 5 (even with our best efforts to slow them) to fast decks it doesn't matter how much control we were planning to play on curve. I'm looking to speed things up with my list and have some encouraging results so far. Ever want to cast a Turn 1 Liliana?
Regardless I think we need to adapt to a meta that is changing to fast creature based decks. We aren't getting the spells to power our deck up, so speeding our "control" up looks to be a viable option.
Slipping back into the Pack Rat strategy for those that play them. What are your thoughts on Cryptbreaker? Strictly worse due to the tap function? Just B seems appealing to cast. And 2 mana instead of 3 for the token seems value on first inspection. And I could see actually running this with Ensnaring Bridge due to the card drawing ability of tapping 3 Zombies. I'm not going that route but if you like Pack Rat and want to run MB Bridge, this could be an option, albeit one that doesn't seem great just marginal. Thoughts?
Played 10 game ones against (Naya)Burn all on the draw with my old list. Went 1-9. Yep 10% win percentage. Abyssmal.
Played 12 game ones against the same deck (Naya)Burn all on the draw as well with my new list. Went 4-8. Now I know what you may think, 33% ain't good. But it is a MARKED improvement. And I was closer to winning in a couple of those losses, most of the old list games were straight smack downs.
Here are a few highlights:
Played Turn 1 Wrench Mind 3 times. Played a T1 Inquisition and Ravens Crime once. Played 2 Inquisitions on T1 once. Played a T1 Raven's Crime and Rack once. Even got a turn 1 Kolaghans Command once as well. 4 Gemstone Caverns is the way to go. Comes us quite a bit on the draw, can even pitch a 2nd Caverns for the first if needed and can always pitch it to RCrime. Jumping the curve was always big and always put me in a good position. Sometimes I would mulligan a decent hand to 6 to try to catch GC or SSG and it happened in 2 of those games. I did pull off a turn 2 Lily once and a turn 2 Bridge 2 times as well. I could have played a turn one Bolt a couple of times but went a different route (discard). I don't think I can go back to playing this waiting on the curve.
I am going to play many more games against some other decks games 1, 2 and 3 on the play and on the draw in the meta as well but it will take time when its in paper as I play. I'm looking to test against Jund, Infect, Affinity, RG Tron, Dredge, Goblins(8whack), Elves, Bogles, Living End and some other fringe decks. There is a LOT of work to be done. But I can tell I like the ability to speed things up a bit. And not losing a single life to fetches or shocks is liberating!
Will update when I can. I like the initial results but need way more games.
Valid points but I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. Dark Confidant fills the same roll essentially of Visitor. Its been around for a while. I still view it as a "sidegrade" over Bob. Maybe time and play will show differently as you suggest. Lupine Pred again seems like a sidegrade over Nyxathid. Cryptbreaker seems like a sidegrade or slight downgrade over Pack Rat. I agree some interesting cards have popped up recently but none of them seem like "breakout" cards for our deck. I'll keep watching the results listed on the cards above. If we see an uptick of 8rack being played we will get our answer.
If you're wondering what upgrades and additions I've seen recently in other decks, there are a few off the top of my head.
Kalitas in Jund. A definite upgrade.
Prized Amalgam in Dredge.
Nahiri in Nahiri Jeskai
World Breaker and new Ulamog in Tron after its downgrade with losing Eye of Ugin
Thought-Knot Seer in a few decks
and this new Eldritch Evolution looks like it could be an addition to certain green creature based decks, maybe Abzhan.
It just seems we never get that card that puts us over the top or is a definitive upgrade over an existing card in our deck. Feels like stagnation to me but maybe you are right, stagnation might not be the correct word to describe it, maybe like unfortunate lack of additional firepower. If you take my meaning. Share some results with AV with me and maybe I can change my mind.
That is what Graven Cairns shines at. You can get BBB on turn one with Gemstone Caverns, Graven Cairns and a SSG. It almost does really require running a BR 8rack list, not mono-black although you could use the "package" to do so. (The package being 4 Gemstone Caverns, 4 Graven Cairns and 4 Simian Spirit Guide) That eats up a lot of slots though and in my testing Caverns,Cairns and SSG doesn't come up but about every one in 9 or 10 games. As you say they fit better with my BR list but Gemstone Caverns could be used on its own in mono-black. Mulling to 6 or 5 to catch a Gemstone Caverns letting you go Hellbent earlier for an Asylum Visitor could be tempting I suppose. Turn One Wrench Mind is fun as all H#$%.
Highlights:
8 games with turn one acceleration. Either Gemstone Caverns, SSG or a combination of the two.
2 Bridge lock games. But they were played on turn 3 and 4 respectively. (Supporting your theory FearDReaper.)
1 Bridge on turn 2 but lost that game.
T1 Dreadbore on a Noble Hierarch
T2 Bolt and WM; Won that game!
T1 WM, T2 WM and Bolt! Eventual Bridge lock, Won that game!
T1 Thoughtseize and Bolt. That was fun but lost.
another T1 WM
my favorite and last game for the win too = Turn ZERO Lightning Bolt. (Gemstone Caverns put into play before my turn, tapped for R for the Bolt killing Glistener Elf) followed by a Turn 1 Wrench Mind then Turn 2 Liliana and Turn 3 Double Rack. That game was fun.
Some improvements still need to be made. I may go back to 2 MB Terminate over Dreadbore but I worry about the Tron matchup (and a possible Nahiri Jeskai one as well). Also I really want to put in a full 4 Bolts. I'd have to pull the 2 KCommands which would leave me without any artifact hate for game one. I need to think about it.
I will need to go back and run 10 to 12 games each of these match ups on the PLAY as well to see what the win rates are and how the acceleration plays out. The speed helps at certain times and at others it doesn't seem so. I do think it is opponent deck/matchup dependent though. I will continue to test.
Next on the list. Dredge. This one I have some definite worries about. Looking forward to it though. Sorry it takes a while as again I'm testing in paper.
Yes the core is there. It has holes. With speed comes a lack of consistency (and a little "power") If you give it a run feel free to test it out but if I could make a couple of recommendations. Don't be afraid to mulligan to 6 or even 5 on the draw to land a Gemstone Caverns or SSG in your opening hand. With 4 copies of GC it comes up quite often in the opening 7 on its own. In fact it isn't at all rare to have 2 in the opening hand which makes it nice to exile one for the other. Mull to 6 and it will pop up as well. I haven't done any testing of Game Ones on the play yet, but I would again say don't be afraid to mull to 6 looking for a SSG. Other than the acceleration it pretty much plays like 8rack with a red splash. Graven Cairns is a key enabler of 2 or 3 B on turn one or two. It is possible to have 3 B turn one on the draw. I've done it several times. It is possible to achieve a Lily/Bridge lock but without a Rack it can be undone. Its not perfect. Like I said I'm still in the process of testing it. There is much work to be done. Sideboard is something I haven't even addressed yet and I have some ideas from the recent talk here. You'll get a goofy grin on your face when you cast that first turn Wrench Mind, two Thoughtseizes or TS and RC. Or when you cast the rare turn 1 Lily, Bridge or KCommand it can be pretty nifty. (I'm starting to think about dropping the KCommands into the side to run a full playset of Lightning Bolt as well, time will tell on this one. Dreadbore may go back to Terminate in the MB as well.) Best of luck if you give it a run, I'll try to help if I can as I'm still learning "quicker" lines of play with it.
There probably are some cards but I'd bet one determining factor would be the Storm mechanic in Scourge. MaRo has stated something to the effect that it will more than likely never be revisited. And even come up with his "Storm Scale" of revisiting mechanics.
I'm fine with where Modern draws the line and glad 8/9 editions are included.
The more I think about it I hope nothing happens on Monday in Modern.
Your second scenario is one that is awesome, but requires to be on the play turn one with 2 SSG's in hand and a Graven Cairns. I will be getting around to that (on the play) testing eventually. Looking to pull that off as well. It won't present itself as much as the first scenario I mentioned, but it is a definite line of play.
Also I understand AV is right down our alley but I see it as a "side-grade" (not an upgrade or downgrade) over Dark Confidant. Now I suppose if I can mull to 5 or 6 and jump the curve on AV with my strategy to turn 1 with Hellbent on turn 2 it may be a slight upgrade. I'll keep that one in mind as well.
Here's a thought for those that love Pack Rat. How about a turn one Pack Rat (with a possible Lightning Bolt thrown in) then turn 2 copy that rat? Another possible line of play.
I wanted to address this. A turn 1 Bridge is not slow, on the contrary, its lightning fast. With the "free" mana of a SSG and Gemstone Caverns, it is not expensive. It can be removed but there aren't a lot of decks running around with artifact removal in Game One. Yes there are some and Abrupt Decay is rampant. Games 2 and 3 I will take your advice and consider siding out Bridge in favor of Asylum Visitor or more removal/discard. Kind of like a mini-transformational switch to try to catch the opponent siding in artifact removal against Bridge and siding out removal out because of the creature-less deck they see I have. Believe me I know the ability of Asylum Visitor. I also know its drawbacks (dies to anything). I bought a playset a while back. Its there if needed.
I always encourage valid critique. And its appreciated. I do listen. My estimation is that just running Pack Rat or adding AV in the same old manner that 8rack has been played for years is still not enough to push this deck to Tier 2. Wizards is not printing cards that make large strides in the power of our deck. They are printing marginal upgrades or "side-grades" as I call some things. Other decks are seeing greater gains. Other decks are popping up due to the power of synergies and different strategies. In my eyes 8rack is stagnating. It needs something to push it into Tier 2 and I'm not sure what exactly that is. But I'm going to try some "out of the box" avenues.
And thanks for the encouragement my friend.
Thank you. I'm glad you are open to ideas. Even fringe ones like I'm trying. I won't post it up here but if you'd like to visit the 8Rackdos thread, which I can link, you can see my list there. I'm not running Spellskite, but I like the thought and will keep it in mind while testing.
And I swear MTGGoldfish is lurking this thread because here you go Pack Rat fans. It is a Vintage Deck, but Pack Rat nonetheless.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/vintage-101-out-of-the-cellar
Love the "Out of the Cellar" reference. Any GenXers like me might remember that album by RATT.
And Saffron Olive on the site evidently is infatuated with it as well. Check out the deck list at the link. Glowing praise of the card in this goofball deck.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/against-the-odds-force-of-savagery
Happy reading.
In my current BR list I can run a facsimile. 3 mana available at times turn one on the draw (albeit not consistently). 2 mana available on the play (albeit not consistently). It can lead to some interesting and powerful turn one plays.
Thoughtseize, Wrench Mind
Wrench Mind, Lightning Bolt
Liliana
Bridge (with a chance to go Hellbent turn 2 handy against Affinity and Naya Burn puking out their hands)
Thoughtseize, Terminate
Thoughtseize, Raven's Crime, Lightning Bolt
Kolaghan's Command
RC,RC,Bolt
RC,Terminate
TS,RC,Bolt
In limited testing I have pulled most of these off. Turn 1, 2 mana combinations of 1 cmc spells or a Wrench Mind is nice as well. Sometimes it works, other times the usual 8rack weaknesses show up and negate any curve jumping. Mulling to 6 or 5 to find the opening cards helps in achieving Hellbent for Bridge as well. If you don't like it that's fine keep playing Pack Rat and I'll play it my way. No need to discuss this further with you.
I respectfully disagree. Control is control. Set the control earlier and give the opponent less turns to do their thing.
In a creatureless deck, Bridge is vital. I'm not running the Mutavaults, Inkmoth Nex's, Rats, Visitors or whatevers out there. I can hard cast a SSG, that's it. And in testing I have and yep its even got in some damage to accelerate the clock. Chump blocker at times as well. A turn 1 or 2 Bridge and going Hellbent to activate it wholly on turn 2 or 3 against a creature based aggro deck is always helpful.
There is just too much removal out there for me to want to run creatures at this time. I could see AV or Bob as a card draw engine possible. I'm keeping those in mind. But again removal is everywhere. And frankly if I'm going to start running creatures I'm almost already at Jund and I should just make the jump as that deck is STRONG.
I would keep in mind the heavy removal route though. I could see myself playing it possibly. A BW version with Path to Exile seems tempting I admit. Wish I could jump the curve with white.
No one is going to talk me out of it. I'll test what I please.
I have nothing against AV in certain lists for sure and I see the value of card draw. I'm not playing Bitterblossom either in my list but I could see where some lists would want it. I bolded above what I'd like to discuss.
How about a Turn 1 Ensnaring Bridge and Hellbent by Turn 2? How about Turn 1 Thoughtseize AND Wrench Mind? In some recent testing I have pulled both off, as well as a Turn 1 Liliana. Some other nifty ahead of the curve plays have been made as well, to varying success. I've gone into more detail in the 8rackdos thread so I won't bring it here other than to mention it. It can be discussed there. Speeding up the plays ahead of the usual can throw an opponent off strategy. Instead of Turn 1 Discard, Turn 2 Wrench Mind or Removal, Turn 3 Lily or Bridge I am trying to open up those same plays a turn or two earlier. I find it pretty fun and again I'm going through a long process of testing that is going to take a while as I play in paper. Opponents know what to expect with 8rack and which turns those plays will happen. I'm trying to shake the first 3 turns up to give myself a burst of speed and put pressure on earlier than what would normally be expected in 8rack. Its a different approach for sure and really only possible in BR and BG 8rack lists. Whether or not anything comes from it I guess time will tell. Again I think the best way to explain it is moving the usual plays up a turn or two or increasing turn 1, 2 and 3 plays. It lets you achieve Hellbent earlier as well. Your suggestions of Nyxathid and Lupine Predator could fit in my list for sure, I will keep them in mind. After turn 3 it plays out like usual 8rack. Its a bit different and not for everyone I'm sure. I definitely don't want to be doing the opposite and slowing down. If I strike out, I strike out but the current trend in the meta is fast and getting faster and I feel the need to at least keep up.
Testing against Infect right now 1-2 currently, once again playing Game Ones always on the draw. Switching to Dreadbore over Terminate in the starting 60 is hurting a bit already, but that is why I would side those out in games 2 and 3. This is all about maximizing game one worst case scenarios while still retaining the "8rackyness" of the deck.
There are several creature based decks I'm going to play where Bridge will be far more relevant. I see the meta moving more towards these as well. What I'm trying to accomplish is jumping the curve and giving the deck a little boost of speed. It IS working. A turn 2 Lightning Bolt AND Wrench Mind on Infect pretty much sealed the win for me earlier today. It does have its drawbacks though. I am sacrificing a little consistency and removal for the speed aspect. I like it so far. If I could accelerate white I might try it. SSG is a key card to play ahead of the curve (Gemstone Caverns even more so), but it does have a price.
I will be testing against some fast creature based decks soon. Namely Goblins(8whack), Elves, Dredge, Living End and Bogles. I also plan on Jund, Eggs Combo, Abzhan Combo and few other fringe decks. If I can get Merfolk, Ad Nauseum, Grixis Control and Jeskai Nahiri proxied up those will get a run as well.
I'm not going for "speed" per se. I'm trying to jump the curve on turns 1-3 to try to position myself better against all the fast decks out there. Too many times it is game over by turn 4 with a lot of these decks and I'm trying to mitigate that. Its not for everyone. But I sure am having fun making this plays a turn or two ahead of the USUAL lines of play.
10 games again all on the draw with the new list. Went 2-10. Yep Tron is a bugger vs. 8rack. Remember I'm practicing Game Ones and always on the draw to get some numbers and data. Post SB and win-rates will change.
Highlights:
Turn 1 Liliana happened!!! Won that game. One of only 2 wins vs. RG Tron. Notable if you ask me as RG Tron may be one of our toughest match ups.
Turn 2 Wrench Mind once.
Turn 1 Wrench Mind followed by a Turn 2 Liliana. Won that game as well. Again, jumping the curve let me win the only other game vs. RG Tron.
Turn 1 Ensnaring Bridge. This was cool but vs. RG Tron not that great. Karn took care of it Turn 3.
Even if I don't have a Gemstone Mine or SSG in my opening 7, Mulling to 6 often brings one up. There were maybe only 2 or 3 of those 10 games where I kept a hand that I couldn't accelerate.
Some things I learned. Even though I HATE the life loss. I need to swap in Thoughtseize for Inquisition of Kozilek. Whiffing on IoK is back breaking vs. Tron. Also I need to swap Dreadbore in for Terminate. Not being able to kill walkers Game One is tantamount to disaster. This would also help against Jeskai Nahiri decks or Jund with their Lily's.
These 2 tweaks and I'm on to another matchup. Infect is next!
Here is the tweaked version.
4 Raven's Crime
4 Wrench Mind
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Dreadbore
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 The Rack
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Dragonskull Summit
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Gemstone Caverns
6 Swamp
4 Graven Cairns
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Vandalblast
2 Crumble to Dust
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ratchet Bomb
I don't think it is better than Rat on first inspection either. My interest would be suggesting it to someone running a full 4 Bridge in the MB. Rat and Bridge just don't mesh well enough together. This and Bridge seem to have a slightly better fit, even though they aren't fully synergistic either.
As for my speed comment. I'm not pushing we become a fast deck, I'm promoting putting some speed into our deck so we can control/stall them faster. Waiting around to play spells on curve while opponents aren't following that same restriction is a recipe for disaster. Decks are getting faster plain and simple, we need to adapt to that quickness as well. When we are losing on turn 4 and turn 5 (even with our best efforts to slow them) to fast decks it doesn't matter how much control we were planning to play on curve. I'm looking to speed things up with my list and have some encouraging results so far. Ever want to cast a Turn 1 Liliana?
Regardless I think we need to adapt to a meta that is changing to fast creature based decks. We aren't getting the spells to power our deck up, so speeding our "control" up looks to be a viable option.
Played 10 game ones against (Naya)Burn all on the draw with my old list. Went 1-9. Yep 10% win percentage. Abyssmal.
Played 12 game ones against the same deck (Naya)Burn all on the draw as well with my new list. Went 4-8. Now I know what you may think, 33% ain't good. But it is a MARKED improvement. And I was closer to winning in a couple of those losses, most of the old list games were straight smack downs.
Here are a few highlights:
Played Turn 1 Wrench Mind 3 times. Played a T1 Inquisition and Ravens Crime once. Played 2 Inquisitions on T1 once. Played a T1 Raven's Crime and Rack once. Even got a turn 1 Kolaghans Command once as well. 4 Gemstone Caverns is the way to go. Comes us quite a bit on the draw, can even pitch a 2nd Caverns for the first if needed and can always pitch it to RCrime. Jumping the curve was always big and always put me in a good position. Sometimes I would mulligan a decent hand to 6 to try to catch GC or SSG and it happened in 2 of those games. I did pull off a turn 2 Lily once and a turn 2 Bridge 2 times as well. I could have played a turn one Bolt a couple of times but went a different route (discard). I don't think I can go back to playing this waiting on the curve.
I am going to play many more games against some other decks games 1, 2 and 3 on the play and on the draw in the meta as well but it will take time when its in paper as I play. I'm looking to test against Jund, Infect, Affinity, RG Tron, Dredge, Goblins(8whack), Elves, Bogles, Living End and some other fringe decks. There is a LOT of work to be done. But I can tell I like the ability to speed things up a bit. And not losing a single life to fetches or shocks is liberating!
Will update when I can. I like the initial results but need way more games.