What do you think about playing 1x Ingot Chewer in a sideboard with other artifact removals and Flamekin Harbinger in maindeck? I think it sounds good to tutor a artifact removal if you need one or you can't draw one in time. Bad thing is that it doesn't trigger Kiln Fiend or Nivmagus.
Have anyone tested this?
Thing is, a deck like this requires every slot to be immediately useful; the purpose of Harbinger is to mainly fetch Nivmagus Elemental, Kiln Fiend, or Death's Shadow. If we want artifact removal, we usually side stuff in. I can't speak for people who lean more towards the Shotgun side of the spectrum, but I run the Combo variant, which means I usually don't have to worry about much besides removal and beating my opponent before turn 4; otherwise, I usually have far more problems than just artifacts and such. Using the Combo variant, I have beaten Affinity on multiple occasions, so the only artifact hate I really have in my board is Hurkyl's Recall. Those are my two cents though. What does everyone else think?
If concerned with theoretical multiple threats then run more protection or counters. I run 2 Pact of Negation for this reason. Also, if they burn 2 paths on 1 threat and a protection spell, cool. Durdle for another threat.
I should prolly invest in some of those soon. They're still mad expensive on a college budget, but I do want to use my wombo combo again sometime.
About the whole T1 Kiln Fiend: How do you deal with a potential path to Exile? Unless you have 2 Spirit Guides, and then use your land for a potential Apostle's Blessing/Emerge unscathed.
And while we're on the matter, how does one deal with an opponent potentially having 2 Path to Exile on their Hand? I can T2 Simian Spirit Guide into a Kiln Fiend and have one mana open to counter a Path, but what if they play another one on their turn?
Does anybody know a way to deal with threats like this, apart from just playing the Fiend on T3-4 or having a really great opening Hand with 2 SSGs and 2 Protection Spells?
In this kind of situation, the best I could really hope for is having something like one or two protection spells (Apostle's Blessing) in my hand, along with two Spirit Guides. I'd break it down like this:
T1 - Me: Play Kiln Fiend, using one of the Guides.
T1 - Them: They attempt to Path; I counter by using the second Spirit Guide in order to protect myself. 99 percent of the time, they'll be tapped out and forced to pass.
T2 - Me: I hit my second land, play a few pain spells to pump Kiln Fiend, and they should be dead or near death.
Alternatively, let's say I only have one Guide. In this case, I'd attempt to use a Probe if I had one, to see if I should play or not, otherwise I'd wait til my second turn so I'd have three mana available; two for the Fiend, one for protection.
Honestly, it's both luck and knowing what kind of deck your opponent is using. Is he/she playing a deck with white in it? Is it the first game or not? Did they sideboard in more threats?
The thing I've noticed with my build especially is that since it's so rogue, not many decks have an answer that's right on the spot for me. Yes, they have creature removal, but nothing like Smother, Last Gasp, or even Slaughter Pact. Most people I've encountered run Abrupt Decay, Dismember, etc, and those are cards that in my opinion are still a gain for us if used on our dudes, because they're forced to waste a spell that they'd rather play on something else or prefer to sit on. Instead, I'm coming at you with a double-striking, unblockable 18/19 on turn 2 and you have to pay four life for a Dismember that only mitigates a single point of damage; they have to pay four life and tap themselves out just to barely stay alive. That's an amazing tempo gain in my opinion.
Long post, I know, and I'm halfway sure I might've made an error or mistake somewhere along it. I've only recently returned to MTG after a hiatus, so advance apologies.
And you could change it to fight aggro/midrange, what are your main concerns? Heavy self damage is an issue.
This is very true, in terms of altering it for aggro/midrange, but to be completely honest, I'm not entirely sure which direction to take in order to counter my aggro/midrange heavy meta while keeping the spirit of the deck intact. I do realize that heavy self damage needs to be whittled down or replaced with alternatives, and I do believe the best approach is to still keep the one shot, one kill, but also give it more evasion, protection, and a means to stall my opponent. Even with the wombo combo's speed and explosiveness, it's still not much good if I can be delayed or stopped by a weenie or token.
As for Simian Spirit Guide, I have tried running it in the past multiple times, but the main problem is that I've never found the "golden ratio" of Guides to other spells/lands, as they usually either crop up at the worst times or not at all, even if I run four. Granted, there is something to be said for the look of utter horror on someone's face after you plop down a Kiln Fiend on turn one, and then proceed to watch them panic as they slowly realize that they're good as dead the next turn.
It's so interesting to see how this deck is evolving with the new sets.
I've always run the Ele-Combo version that focuses on a one shot, one kill combo by turn 3 at best, but I'm very tempted to try these other variations.
In recent times, I've gone 3-1 with this deck and 4-0; that single loss during the first tournament was to a Griselbrand Shoal that outraced me by a very close margin. Decks that I managed to outplay included Affinity, Elves, Merfolk, and even Monoblue Tron. This is my go to deck in terms of comfort, but funnily enough, I dislike playing it at my LGS due to a very aggro and midrange heavy meta.
Hey all, just built my own version from cards I had and a few I ordered. Curious to see what people think of it; my background is usually aggro/combo, but I wanted to learn how to play something new and different.
Been reading through this thread and I'm pumped to get started with my first tempo deck.
Your list is a bit delve heavy with 5 delve spells so you may want to MB some Though Scours. You will shock yourself to death with 7 shocklands, 4 Probes and 2 TS. 3 Probes are usually enough and -1 Angler for +1 YP to get maximum value out of it. TS can be moved to SB or split with IoK if Tron and other big mana decks are rampart in your meta. However, note that running MB discard is usually not a good tempo plan. I would rather pack in Spell Snare/Pierce and have TS/IoK in the SB. Lastly, Electrolyze or Forked Bolt is generally good against Affinity/Token decks.
If you really want to go the aggro/tempo route, check RUG Delver or the UR Prowess list with Stormchaser Mage.
Thank you for the advice. I realize this list does have some glaring flaws, but it's what I currently have on me, give or take a few cards you suggested. I can't afford to run RUG, thanks to Tarmogoyf being a central part of it, although I will give the UR Prowess build a look.
Hey all, just built my own version from cards I had and a few I ordered. Curious to see what people think of it; my background is usually aggro/combo, but I wanted to learn how to play something new and different.
Was Ideas Unbound ever considered for this kind of a deck? Maybe it is possible to make the discard as painless as possible. My inclination is that discarding lands past the third one is less of an issue, also with many free o 1CMC spells we would be able to empty our hand before the end of turn. Of course discarding 0 is the perfect solution, but discarding one means we did better than just "draw 2" for two mana which is nice too.
UU is ROUGH. Unless you're going for a more RU main then only Phyrexian splash it could be done. First thoughts are it's too hard on my mana base to be anything dependable.
I've been thinking more of the RU, certainly. Also the deck would benefit from a bit more free spells. For playing Ideas Unbound the deck would have to let go white splash for Emerge Unscathed. Other than that I think that manabase would be fine. It's not like we care much about not shocking ourselves :P.
Anyway, I'll probably put something like this after OGW is available on MTGO. I've read many positive feedback on Stormchaser Mage, so that's what I am waiting for.
Back from hiatus and playing MTG again, and I am VERY excited to see we have some new converts to Ele-Combo/Shotgun.
Honestly, I don't run white in my build. I just use Apostle's Blessing. 2 life isn't as big a a deal as being able to stick to a more stable manabase, plus most of the time (at least from my experience), you only really need one of your dudes to have protection after they're pumped up. If anyone's interested in my build, I can repost it.
Yeah, I read those articles every chance I get. I've built two of em, but even though they weren't super competitive, they were super fun to play! And I've always wanted to build a Pillow Fort deck.
You and I are gonna be good friends haha. Rogues are my obsession as well. Even though they're harder to play from my experience, nothing will ever replace the looks on players' faces for me quite the same way.
Yeah, I was planning on replacing it with a fetch.
As for the second piece of your post, I'd much rather have lords than extra lands, but honestly, the worst mana floods I experienced were when I got nothing but Mutavaults in succession. This happened more than two or three times, so it's a definite problem, enough to warrant reducing the number in my build at least.
The hands I kept against Abzan in the losing games both had Sedge Sliver and Manaweft Sliver, but they didn't have any other lords and one hand had a Vial. As for manabase, both hands contained a Mutavault and a shockland, and one also had a Sliver Hive. They both had Dismember. I should've mulliganed the third game's hand, because even with Dismember, I learned too late that I was not going to draw into any more lords.
Hopefully it was just bad luck! When I tested against my friends, I had pretty decent draws. I need to find an alternative to Reflecting Pool, honestly, but I also think 4 Mutavault is also a pretty bad choice as well. Manabase is pretty damn difficult to figure out haha.
I also agree with removing Necrotic Sliver for my meta. Too costly and slow. I was honestly shocked at how much my meta had changed in such a short period of time. Usually it's slower decks like U-Tron and Amulet Bloom. This time, there were at least four Elf players and three Merfolk players, in addition to what else I went up against.
Thing is, a deck like this requires every slot to be immediately useful; the purpose of Harbinger is to mainly fetch Nivmagus Elemental, Kiln Fiend, or Death's Shadow. If we want artifact removal, we usually side stuff in. I can't speak for people who lean more towards the Shotgun side of the spectrum, but I run the Combo variant, which means I usually don't have to worry about much besides removal and beating my opponent before turn 4; otherwise, I usually have far more problems than just artifacts and such. Using the Combo variant, I have beaten Affinity on multiple occasions, so the only artifact hate I really have in my board is Hurkyl's Recall. Those are my two cents though. What does everyone else think?
I should prolly invest in some of those soon. They're still mad expensive on a college budget, but I do want to use my wombo combo again sometime.
In this kind of situation, the best I could really hope for is having something like one or two protection spells (Apostle's Blessing) in my hand, along with two Spirit Guides. I'd break it down like this:
T1 - Me: Play Kiln Fiend, using one of the Guides.
T1 - Them: They attempt to Path; I counter by using the second Spirit Guide in order to protect myself. 99 percent of the time, they'll be tapped out and forced to pass.
T2 - Me: I hit my second land, play a few pain spells to pump Kiln Fiend, and they should be dead or near death.
Alternatively, let's say I only have one Guide. In this case, I'd attempt to use a Probe if I had one, to see if I should play or not, otherwise I'd wait til my second turn so I'd have three mana available; two for the Fiend, one for protection.
Honestly, it's both luck and knowing what kind of deck your opponent is using. Is he/she playing a deck with white in it? Is it the first game or not? Did they sideboard in more threats?
The thing I've noticed with my build especially is that since it's so rogue, not many decks have an answer that's right on the spot for me. Yes, they have creature removal, but nothing like Smother, Last Gasp, or even Slaughter Pact. Most people I've encountered run Abrupt Decay, Dismember, etc, and those are cards that in my opinion are still a gain for us if used on our dudes, because they're forced to waste a spell that they'd rather play on something else or prefer to sit on. Instead, I'm coming at you with a double-striking, unblockable 18/19 on turn 2 and you have to pay four life for a Dismember that only mitigates a single point of damage; they have to pay four life and tap themselves out just to barely stay alive. That's an amazing tempo gain in my opinion.
Long post, I know, and I'm halfway sure I might've made an error or mistake somewhere along it. I've only recently returned to MTG after a hiatus, so advance apologies.
This is very true, in terms of altering it for aggro/midrange, but to be completely honest, I'm not entirely sure which direction to take in order to counter my aggro/midrange heavy meta while keeping the spirit of the deck intact. I do realize that heavy self damage needs to be whittled down or replaced with alternatives, and I do believe the best approach is to still keep the one shot, one kill, but also give it more evasion, protection, and a means to stall my opponent. Even with the wombo combo's speed and explosiveness, it's still not much good if I can be delayed or stopped by a weenie or token.
As for Simian Spirit Guide, I have tried running it in the past multiple times, but the main problem is that I've never found the "golden ratio" of Guides to other spells/lands, as they usually either crop up at the worst times or not at all, even if I run four. Granted, there is something to be said for the look of utter horror on someone's face after you plop down a Kiln Fiend on turn one, and then proceed to watch them panic as they slowly realize that they're good as dead the next turn.
I've always run the Ele-Combo version that focuses on a one shot, one kill combo by turn 3 at best, but I'm very tempted to try these other variations.
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Blood Crypt
4 Steam Vents
1 Wooded Foothills
5 Mountain
Creatures
4 Nivmagus Elemental
4 Kiln Fiend
2 Flamekin Harbinger
4 Apostle's Blessing
4 Assault Strobe
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ground Rift
4 Slaughter Pact
4 Mutagenic Growth
3 Tainted Strike
3 Distortion Strike
2 Gut Shot
3 Dismember
2 Dragon's Claw
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Rending Volley
2 Spell Pierce
2 Tormod's Crypt
In recent times, I've gone 3-1 with this deck and 4-0; that single loss during the first tournament was to a Griselbrand Shoal that outraced me by a very close margin. Decks that I managed to outplay included Affinity, Elves, Merfolk, and even Monoblue Tron. This is my go to deck in terms of comfort, but funnily enough, I dislike playing it at my LGS due to a very aggro and midrange heavy meta.
Thank you for the advice. I realize this list does have some glaring flaws, but it's what I currently have on me, give or take a few cards you suggested. I can't afford to run RUG, thanks to Tarmogoyf being a central part of it, although I will give the UR Prowess build a look.
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Polluted Delta
4x Steam Vents
2x Watery Grave
1x Blood Crypt
2x Island
2x Mountain
1x Swamp
Sorcery (14)
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Serum Visions
2x Thoughtseize
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Remand
2x Slaughter Pact
2x Mana Leak
1x Go for the Throat
1x Murderous Cut
Creature (14)
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Monastery Swiftspear
3x Gurmag Angler
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Young Pyromancer
2x Thought Scour
2x Thoughtseize
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Dispel
1x Dismember
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Negate
1x Pyroclasm
1x Spellskite
1x Surgical Extraction
Been reading through this thread and I'm pumped to get started with my first tempo deck.
Back from hiatus and playing MTG again, and I am VERY excited to see we have some new converts to Ele-Combo/Shotgun.
Honestly, I don't run white in my build. I just use Apostle's Blessing. 2 life isn't as big a a deal as being able to stick to a more stable manabase, plus most of the time (at least from my experience), you only really need one of your dudes to have protection after they're pumped up. If anyone's interested in my build, I can repost it.
I love Rogue tribal! One of the first decks I actually put time into tweaking and building. Brings back some great memories haha.
As for the second piece of your post, I'd much rather have lords than extra lands, but honestly, the worst mana floods I experienced were when I got nothing but Mutavaults in succession. This happened more than two or three times, so it's a definite problem, enough to warrant reducing the number in my build at least.
Hopefully it was just bad luck! When I tested against my friends, I had pretty decent draws. I need to find an alternative to Reflecting Pool, honestly, but I also think 4 Mutavault is also a pretty bad choice as well. Manabase is pretty damn difficult to figure out haha.
I'm thinking of going towards the Thoughtseize route, honestly. Also thinking of tossing in some City of Brass or Mana Confluence.
I also agree with removing Necrotic Sliver for my meta. Too costly and slow. I was honestly shocked at how much my meta had changed in such a short period of time. Usually it's slower decks like U-Tron and Amulet Bloom. This time, there were at least four Elf players and three Merfolk players, in addition to what else I went up against.