That’s a fine spot to start. I’m just saying you can’t say cantrips over bird or that certain cards and numbers are correct for consistency like # of equipment. People need to test different numbers and engines. Maybe the deck needs better defensive measures main board and become just a tad slower to net a better win %. Look at how boogles went to leyline in the main, maybe we need something mainboard. I’m just saying we can test the same decks over and over that can’t 5-0 a league and not get anywhere but we need to experiment to try to get over the hump. It might just be right to put grid in the main and worry less about a storm count altogether.
Again, those decks DID 5-0 a League. I agree we need to experiment but we probably don't want to throw out the only technology that has had 5-0 League success so far. There have been four published MTGO lists in 2018 that hit 5-0. One used 4 Sleight/4 Thoughtcast/2 Reverse Engineer. Two used 4 SV. The fourth used 4 SV/3 Sleight. Two used 20 equipment, two used 21 equipment. If we add in Reily's 12-3 list, we have 20 equipment and 3 SV plus 2 Repeal. Unless we're just going to throw out those results, this means 20-21 equipment is optimal, and about 4+ cantrip/draw effects is optimal. Based off the success of other combo decks, we can probably guess that 4 SV is the optimal place to start.
We can go back in time to 2017 to see that there has never been a competitive published Cheeri0s list with fewer than 19 equipment, so we know that's probably a floor. There has also only been one Cheeri0s list out of about 10 that ran 0 cantrips, so we can probably again confirm that cantrips/draw effects are the right way to go.
Again, I'm all for trying new things like Bogles migrating SB tech to the main to increase resiliency. And maybe I'm misinterpreting your suggestions here, but something like # of equipment is basically a known optimal level. So is the question of whether or not to include cantrips. Something like Artificer's Assistant is more of an open question. Same with Grid, a card I totally love in the SB. But that said, we CAN look at both past combo decks, past Cheeri0s decks, and current card evaluation to decide if a card is good/bad in the deck. This is why I'd rather have cantirps or actual win conditions than the win-more Assistant.
A way to cast ad nauseum would be great in this deck.
I was going to mention that Spoils of the vault had been tried but... the wording of Ad Nauseam is obscene for a deck full of zeros.
Standard is making use of Battle at the Bridge if we were to be losing life. Even if the opponent did not use any creature, we do run some and the -1/-1's stack up regardless of the actual power and toughness. We cannot Retract during the improvise portion of paying the cost of Battle at the bridge, right? That would provide entirely too much life.
I think if I’m playing the bird I want some horizon canopies to combo off without a draw engine if it comes to it.
Secondary draw engine is why Leave // Chance is strong. Chance is a fizzle ripcord ready for use from the yard. With Horizon Canopy, Im not so sure. My lands are nearly universally tapped during any kind of combo turn at all.
outcome is probably better in a situation like that. I want a card draw while scrying with bird.
Not if its not in your hand. Not if you are needing a draw in a fizzle situation. Chance is in the yard until you need it. Its value is largely board state independent. I still maintain that Leave // Chance is better than Paradoxical Outcome.
I think if I’m playing the bird I want some horizon canopies to combo off without a draw engine if it comes to it.
Secondary draw engine is why Leave // Chance is strong. Chance is a fizzle ripcord ready for use from the yard. With Horizon Canopy, Im not so sure. My lands are nearly universally tapped during any kind of combo turn at all.
I’ve hit 5-6 mana sources many games. Honestly a displacement wave would probably win most of those games too. I don’t see anyone playing swan song main and revival/repeal serve many purposes.
And, it didnt occur to me, displacement wave is a symmetrical effect. Great for this decks side of the board, but terrible for your opponents board state. Almost, functionally, a ratchet bomb in this context... with a free Retract.
Standard tends to have weak combo, though. Great influxes of cards, but standard is working with a very small pool of cards. Working singletons into a deck with an extremely low flex slot count is difficult. Working in whole combos?
How about the famished paladin/sorcerer's wand combo? Give him life link (basilisk collar) and they have to remove him then or insta-lose. Have sram and pp be the draw engines to get to it
When I test AA I’ll be using bone saw and a 1 of Golem-Skin Gauntlets as a combat win condition. Can even get there t2 flying over for leathal vs a main decked Leyline.
Just because it does not have the untap symbol like pili... doesnt mean that they should not have learned their grim monolith untap-is-broken lesson from Urazs block. Untap IS broken and the drawback they used to justify the low casting cost is meaningless to Cheeri0s.
+1 Noxious revival or Leave // Chance
Just seems light on bounce effects.
You know just what to say!
I was going to mention that Spoils of the vault had been tried but... the wording of
Ad Nauseam is obscene for a deck full of zeros.
Standard is making use of Battle at the Bridge if we were to be losing life. Even if the opponent did not use any creature, we do run some and the -1/-1's stack up regardless of the actual power and toughness. We cannot Retract during the improvise portion of paying the cost of Battle at the bridge, right? That would provide entirely too much life.
Not if its not in your hand. Not if you are needing a draw in a fizzle situation. Chance is in the yard until you need it. Its value is largely board state independent. I still maintain that Leave // Chance is better than Paradoxical Outcome.
Secondary draw engine is why Leave // Chance is strong. Chance is a fizzle ripcord ready for use from the yard. With Horizon Canopy, Im not so sure. My lands are nearly universally tapped during any kind of combo turn at all.
And, it didnt occur to me, displacement wave is a symmetrical effect. Great for this decks side of the board, but terrible for your opponents board state. Almost, functionally, a ratchet bomb in this context... with a free Retract.
Well... displacement wave is double the cost of retract, but its not terrible.
Ugh, youre right!
Maybe Sorcerer's Wand with Traxos, Scourge of Kroog for lethal.
Sorcerer's Wand on any creature is helpful for removing problem low toughness creatures, especially in the early game.
Id never noticed it was a global effect!
Where are you getting the mana t2 to attach the number of equipment to the non-Puresteel paladin target, artificer's Assistant, to obtain lethal via Golem-Skin Gauntlets? Its two and three colorless per equipment.
Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
Paradise Mantle
One mana of any color for every cheerio dropped every time? And, a seven seven beat down plan.
Edit: Also, Im of the belief that Leave // Chance is strictly better than Paradoxical Outcome.
Just because it does not have the untap symbol like pili... doesnt mean that they should not have learned their grim monolith untap-is-broken lesson from Urazs block. Untap IS broken and the drawback they used to justify the low casting cost is meaningless to Cheeri0s.
Traxos, Scourge of Kroog + paradise mantle
"Houston? We have mana."