What's your opinion on basic Mountain? I'm not a fan of it in general but I've lost several games post GRN because they FoRed me and I didn't find another read source with BBE or some other red card in the hand. This seems pretty odd regarding that there should be enough red sources in my decks. I feel I'm just unlucky which isn't anything new but whatever.
getting Field of Ruined by your red sources is a real thing. But I do agree that Mountain is really bad in Jund. Most Specially if you have starts like this
it cant cast Assassin's trophy or grim flayer if you play it. but if you go.
example: burn matchup. fetch for mountain turn 1 to save life and bolt. and on second turn realize made a mistake because I couldn't assassins trophy or grim flayer.
This can cast everything in we have. the only problem when getting Field of Ruin is not top decking an Untap Red sources. All of them are Blackcleave or Raging Ravine. Best way is to add another red shockland (2nd Blood Crypt) so when u get a fetch land you can cast it. Also proactively getting 2 red sources everytime can help. ofcourse if they have field of ruin in play, then get 3 red sources.
you're right! but that's not only cockatrice, its also 6 fnm style tourney too as well. don't have mtgo thats why. if someone funds me i'll do a stream for it.
Franks answers to my question about the fetchlands:
"Depending on your assumptions, the "simple" distribution I used no longer applies, and thus you'd need to run simulations to figure out exact numbers. But if nearly 100% of your lands are fetch lands, then I would estimate that you may be able to play an extra spell per turn on average."
So I guess, if we make a simply assumption that our landbase of 24 lands contains 8 fetchlands, which is a third, it means we have about a third of a card more per turn on average. This is rather simple though.
Correct, but that's true of any fetch. You're looking at about a 2/3 chance of an additional card every time you crack a fetch, assuming your sequencing is correct and you have enough available mana. If you play 12 fetches, which I think is right in a Frenzy build, you're looking at around 3 extra cards per game in games where you play Frenzy.
My simulator isn't up to the task of doing this without some pretty significant rewrites. I'm currently in the process of evaluating 1, 2, and 3 mana cantrips comparing how good they need to be in relation to each other to be on the same power level. So until that project is done I can't take on another task. Also, with the way my simulator is written it would require a pretty significant rewrite to play Frenzy, so I probably won't get to it any time soon. But, if we were to narrow the question slightly to deck performance after a T4 Frenzy hits the field, and just count things like total numbers of cards cast with certain mana curves and mana bases, the functionality stays fairly limited and I can eventually answer that question.
If no one else does it, I can eventually take that up but you're probably looking at a month or more before I have anything.
I came here for the experimental frenzy. It seems like we maiby could support 4xexperimental frenzy. Hear me out.
We would need to press the manacurve low to use Frenzy. Iquesition is good. Push and bolt are good. Thoughtsieze might be a nessaserry evil. Nihil spellbomb is a cantrip that is in the table.
Two drops are goyf, Grim flayers has synergy with Frenzy in the yeard and good for remowing lands. Oozes for lifegain. Bob is very bad with frenzy. Collective brutalaty is good with frenzy as we often will have dead cards in hand.
3 drops are plentyfull to choose from. Tierless tracker is good, and clues can remove land from the topp of the deck. (Although we can not use the card.) Lily last hope can self mill, but stoos there. Lily veil is good as we do not need thr hand. She and c brutalaty will be good for getting delerium.
Kologans commamd might be bad. Ravens crime could be supricingly good as a 'brick' will often strand us with land cards in hand.
Horizon canopy can help filter our draw. The same with field of ruin, or any spare fetchland. (Just like tod stevens valuetown.) Sugestions for better cards are welcome.
Push is actually very bad, you stop your Frenzy for the turn if the opponent doesn't have anything for you to kill. I've been playing one, because a Frenzy list seems to be able to handle about 2 cards that are bad with Frenzy, but any more than that and you will cost yourself a few cards per game. Good Frenzy cards are proactive cards or cards with enough modes that they're never dead, something like Executioner's Capsule (not that I'm recommending this) is many times better than Fatal Push.
I bring Spellbomb in all the time. It's almost MB worthy actually.
As far as threats go, Goyf/Flayer are fine, Flayer is pretty ridiculous with Frenzy actually (you really need to see it to fully appreciate it, if there's interest I can put some mtgo replays on youtube to show the card off). I play two Oozes generally, but I'll likely be changing that soon. Grim Lavamancer is pretty good too. The problem with this threat loadout is that it's all very weak to GY hate. I haven't figured out a good way to deal with that yet. The good news though is that Frenzy is so ridiculously powerful that you can still win despite GY hate shutting you down, and cards like Assassin's Trophy are a good way to deal with any GY hate the opponent does play.
I would suggest playing very few 3 or 4 drops. I play 5 3 drops and 3 4 drops. My 3's are 3 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Liliana the Last Hope, 1 Kolaghans, and my 4's are 3 copies of Experimental Frenzy. You need to be very careful about how high your curve goes so that you can get the most draws possible each turn. Tireless Tracker could be ok, but I think it's more of a GY card to hedge away from GY based cards, and again 3's are really problematic in high numbers so you mess up a lot of your potential curve by removing 2's to add 3's. You also have to think about total mana available. If for example you have 6 mana, play a 3 drop, hit another land, and then have to burn 2 mana on a clue, now you only have 1 mana left, which leaves you with very few possible cards for the clue to draw you into for an additional card.
I would stay away from Horizon Canopy, fetchlands are enough on their own. Field of Ruin runs into the same problem as clue tokens, except getting basics out of your deck becomes a bigger deal as the game goes on. Worst case scenario this becomes a 3 mana shuffle. If you're interested in that type of effect I think Ghost Quarter is the better option here.
ive been playing with flayer instead of bob. it is actually really great with souls and looting. it feels like cheating when you can get the right spells in time. but ive change my early 1 mana removal to accommodate flayer.
4 bolt
1 push
change to
2 tarfire
3 push
its the same configuration that jund death shadow uses to enable delirium. but this im not all in on enabling deliruim but still get consistent 4/4 with grim flayer. looting is really a good card. right spell in the right time is the best right now.
ive learned now to avoid casting looting in hand if I can, to avoid card disadvantage. when you flashback looting, u don't get card disadvantage. also leaving a land in hand is key for looting. also I only cast early looting when I don't have a right spells, low/high land count, having souls in hand. u can also keep 1 land hands easily if you have a faithless looting so less mulligan.
I came here for the experimental frenzy. It seems like we maiby could support 4xexperimental frenzy. Hear me out.
We would need to press the manacurve low to use Frenzy. Iquesition is good. Push and bolt are good. Thoughtsieze might be a nessaserry evil. Nihil spellbomb is a cantrip that is in the table.
Two drops are goyf, Grim flayers has synergy with Frenzy in the yeard and good for remowing lands. Oozes for lifegain. Bob is very bad with frenzy. Collective brutalaty is good with frenzy as we often will have dead cards in hand.
3 drops are plentyfull to choose from. Tierless tracker is good, and clues can remove land from the topp of the deck. (Although we can not use the card.) Lily last hope can self mill, but stoos there. Lily veil is good as we do not need thr hand. She and c brutalaty will be good for getting delerium.
Kologans commamd might be bad. Ravens crime could be supricingly good as a 'brick' will often strand us with land cards in hand.
Horizon canopy can help filter our draw. The same with field of ruin, or any spare fetchland. (Just like tod stevens valuetown.) Sugestions for better cards are welcome.
seems like flashback cards like faithless looting and lingering souls are good in this build too. but it means we are straying away into a bloodbraid elf build.
I honestly rhink too big a deal ia made of the Twilight Mire/Damping Sphere issue. I'm more concerned that it costs 2 mana. That's when I usually want to drop threats. That is also why i prefer Alpine Moon.
i think alpine moon is good on a looting deck so u can filter away the rest. but it is bad against control. but i do like alpine moon.
and i think jund is the best shell Right now due to its closing games. i was high on abzan traverse but now that ive found a list with grim flayer, the closing ability of the deck got better.
I agree that Trophy isn't good against everything and Burn is one of decks where i would rather have Decay or Terminate. Against Scapeshift it has potential to be good if you manage to kill Valakut and then Surgical it but even this doesn't guarantee you a win. Like Delver you don't want more than 3.
playtested a bit and really don't like surgical plan. I know that was my initial thoughts but I think the proper way to fight the matchup is alpine moon. substitute my 3 fulminator for 3 alpine moon. I think with the versatility of trophy, we can put more narrow hate cards in sideboard.
now I can see where trophy is bad. Just lost 2 games to burn and Blue scapeshift. surgical would be a good plan if blue counter scapeshift becomes a thing.
I like this approach as well. Looting is a card which I also often come back to when the meta is too linear and consistant for which reason I also need more consistancy. I probably would play 3 Looting only though. That way you are commiting to having about 1 per game, which seems about right. Especially since you play 3 Souls only. The question is the mana though, it is proibably quite painful and I am not sure you can fulfill all the requirements.
I think I'll give it a spin.
it means a lot to me that you're trying it. your thoughts would be so valuable.
ur right on the looting part. it should be 4 looting/2 lily or 3 looting/3 lily. I found games where they clash together. the 4th bbe could be 4th souls too but found it would be too painful for the mana base.
I mostly didn't cast souls. I treated it as a black card. usually it got cascaded or discarded. it would be ok to run it without godless shrine to be honest but just put it in just incase I got stuck with it. only have 2 games where I had to cast the souls.
I had 2 blood crypt instead of having a mountain due to field of ruin. went down on overgrown tomb but put in a twilight mire so godless shrine/bloodcrypt/forest can produce more green. didn't try to jam in treetop in fear of taking too much damage.
@guitar90X : nice list, it remember me the 4c list when jund was everywhere.
Can you detail your "100%" winrate (match-ups, where, etc ?) because it's obviously not the reality, i don't say you lie but you can't have a 100% winrate in "real" games.
no totally feel u but so far i haven't lost a game with it. heres the matches I've played.
3 tron
2 uw control
1 blue moon
1 infect
2 ur wizards
1 humans
2 burn
1 storm
2 jund vine
1 dredge
1 scapeshift
2 bg rock
1 elves
1 merfolk
2 pelt collector zoo
just had to post coz im so hyped about it. not here to convince anyone
decks composed of 3 fnm style tourney and cockatrice games.
hey I created a list that's competitive and includes faithless looting. my win percentage on this one is close to 100% (seriously). notable synergy is below.
- faithless looting and leyline of the void is good. filter away extra
- lingering souls is good with looting and grim flayer
- grim flayer is not 4/4 all the time but I just use it to get card advantage from BBE, souls, looting.
- push can be a collective brutality due to synergy with souls
Test it intensively on cockatrice and friends because I don't have mtgo. Tron burn hollow one bridgevine spirits got better. And uw control and death shadow decks got worst. U can still grind uw but u need to draw your bbe and kcommand. Death shadow is bigger than your creatures. Both uw control and deathshadow, u want Bob instead. Affinity and kci untested.
And big upside is less flooding. Maybe 1 off watery grave can cast architect of will. It can fate seal the opponent on top deck mode.
3rd kcommand can be useful because we don't have much card advantage other than bbe. Grim flayer triggers just makes sure u hit delirium and don't draw dead draws. U also don't end up trowing away goods cards in gy because of delirium when flayer hits.
Bridge vine is tough so 3 leyline of the void is good and we can use it for delirium as well.
matchups are
eldrazi tron
green tron
amulet
infect
all tough matches and i will say flayer won me the games. and also bbe. the deck is fast. and bbe with flayer is like cheating. i won tron with flayer fix the top to put bbe and pulse. and next turn kill karn with bbe cascade to pulse. also won infect by fixing top with flayer put push on top and draw it with architect of will. also i got mana screwed 1 game but was able to kcommand back a architect of will to find my 4th land. cascading with seal of fire was great also help with delirium.
yeah traverse list is more competitive. but there's some cases where u get mana screwed with lots of field of ruin, ghost quarter because of low land count. but I think traverse is more flexible and you want to be flexible with this wide meta.
getting Field of Ruined by your red sources is a real thing. But I do agree that Mountain is really bad in Jund. Most Specially if you have starts like this
Turn 1 - Blackcleave/Overgrown tomb/Blood Crypt
Turn 2 - Mountain
it cant cast Assassin's trophy or grim flayer if you play it. but if you go.
example: burn matchup. fetch for mountain turn 1 to save life and bolt. and on second turn realize made a mistake because I couldn't assassins trophy or grim flayer.
Turn 1 - Blackcleave/Blood Crypt
Turn 2 - Forest
Turn 3 - Blackcleave/Overgrown tomb/Blood Crypt
Turn 4 - Anything
This can cast everything in we have. the only problem when getting Field of Ruin is not top decking an Untap Red sources. All of them are Blackcleave or Raging Ravine. Best way is to add another red shockland (2nd Blood Crypt) so when u get a fetch land you can cast it. Also proactively getting 2 red sources everytime can help. ofcourse if they have field of ruin in play, then get 3 red sources.
ive been playing with flayer instead of bob. it is actually really great with souls and looting. it feels like cheating when you can get the right spells in time. but ive change my early 1 mana removal to accommodate flayer.
4 bolt
1 push
change to
2 tarfire
3 push
its the same configuration that jund death shadow uses to enable delirium. but this im not all in on enabling deliruim but still get consistent 4/4 with grim flayer. looting is really a good card. right spell in the right time is the best right now.
ive learned now to avoid casting looting in hand if I can, to avoid card disadvantage. when you flashback looting, u don't get card disadvantage. also leaving a land in hand is key for looting. also I only cast early looting when I don't have a right spells, low/high land count, having souls in hand. u can also keep 1 land hands easily if you have a faithless looting so less mulligan.
seems like flashback cards like faithless looting and lingering souls are good in this build too. but it means we are straying away into a bloodbraid elf build.
i think alpine moon is good on a looting deck so u can filter away the rest. but it is bad against control. but i do like alpine moon.
and i think jund is the best shell Right now due to its closing games. i was high on abzan traverse but now that ive found a list with grim flayer, the closing ability of the deck got better.
playtested a bit and really don't like surgical plan. I know that was my initial thoughts but I think the proper way to fight the matchup is alpine moon. substitute my 3 fulminator for 3 alpine moon. I think with the versatility of trophy, we can put more narrow hate cards in sideboard.
it means a lot to me that you're trying it. your thoughts would be so valuable.
ur right on the looting part. it should be 4 looting/2 lily or 3 looting/3 lily. I found games where they clash together. the 4th bbe could be 4th souls too but found it would be too painful for the mana base.
I mostly didn't cast souls. I treated it as a black card. usually it got cascaded or discarded. it would be ok to run it without godless shrine to be honest but just put it in just incase I got stuck with it. only have 2 games where I had to cast the souls.
I had 2 blood crypt instead of having a mountain due to field of ruin. went down on overgrown tomb but put in a twilight mire so godless shrine/bloodcrypt/forest can produce more green. didn't try to jam in treetop in fear of taking too much damage.
no totally feel u but so far i haven't lost a game with it. heres the matches I've played.
3 tron
2 uw control
1 blue moon
1 infect
2 ur wizards
1 humans
2 burn
1 storm
2 jund vine
1 dredge
1 scapeshift
2 bg rock
1 elves
1 merfolk
2 pelt collector zoo
just had to post coz im so hyped about it. not here to convince anyone
decks composed of 3 fnm style tourney and cockatrice games.
- faithless looting and leyline of the void is good. filter away extra
- lingering souls is good with looting and grim flayer
- grim flayer is not 4/4 all the time but I just use it to get card advantage from BBE, souls, looting.
- push can be a collective brutality due to synergy with souls
-went with only 3 souls because its not on color.
And big upside is less flooding. Maybe 1 off watery grave can cast architect of will. It can fate seal the opponent on top deck mode.
3rd kcommand can be useful because we don't have much card advantage other than bbe. Grim flayer triggers just makes sure u hit delirium and don't draw dead draws. U also don't end up trowing away goods cards in gy because of delirium when flayer hits.
Bridge vine is tough so 3 leyline of the void is good and we can use it for delirium as well.
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/23-09-18-grim-flayer-jund/?cb=1537722812
matchups are
eldrazi tron
green tron
amulet
infect
all tough matches and i will say flayer won me the games. and also bbe. the deck is fast. and bbe with flayer is like cheating. i won tron with flayer fix the top to put bbe and pulse. and next turn kill karn with bbe cascade to pulse. also won infect by fixing top with flayer put push on top and draw it with architect of will. also i got mana screwed 1 game but was able to kcommand back a architect of will to find my 4th land. cascading with seal of fire was great also help with delirium.
that's what im brewing now but u have to splash souls. that's the only way u can gain CA with grim flayer.