I like that list Cody. I'd be MB leyline at Vegas. DS, Abzan, Storm, and multiple other top tiered decks are hurt. That's where I'd be. Grixis DS and abzan combo are likely most represented, Eldrazi Tron and storm followed by Affinity and burn. Only deck that completely disregards it G1 is Affinity.
3 extraction effects with 2 snap - care to share how that's performing?
Edit: does anyone remember hive mind combo? Wonder how that deck would do these days. Turn 5 free wins
I feel like BW Eldrazi can hit us hard if they're on the tax game plan, if not then I feel it's strictly worse than Eldrazi Tron. Strangler will rarely have a target, displacer becomes all but worthless, and they're playing fewer ways to power out T2/3 TKS/Smasher that is so backbreaking. Not that the deck is bad by any means - just think we should always fear taxes, because we essentially have to t4/5 wrath to get anywhere in that game.
I actually really prefer extirpate. In our deck, I don't know why surgical is ever the "right" call. The amount of times I've had someone respond to surgical has been enough of a warning to me that I want split second. Especially against company, storm (they try going off inresp), Ad naus goes for it, dredge cracks a fetch or uses neonate to instant speed draw and pick the dredger up (if they're experienced and leave neonate in play for the 2-4-1), cheeri0s tries to go off inresp, snapcaster targeting surgical's target in control mirrors, every once in awhile a savvy opponent will exile their own yard inresp to surgical in order to save their combo pieces (relic in scapeshift/Tron serves this purpose), and multiple other reasons. We should always have the mana open anyway, so there's no reason in my opinion to play surgical here. Just the thoughts I've had on it.
@annihilator: I was just wondering if anyone had tried it, but the discard point is valid (as is PtE point). Not gonna try it tomorrow then. 30-40 people show up on Tuesday's and I almost always play 1 shadow player.
I've got 2 clique in my "maybeboard", I've had better luck with extirpate + thoughtseize against the decks I want tseize but I can see the versatility of clique against non-combo decks.
Question: does anyone extract DS if it ends up in the yard? I haven't, but I feel like knocking out 30-50% of their threat count could be strong.
I get that. I've been testing down a snap and up a push, might swap snap mb with *** SB. Although to be fair, it's rarely a case of wrath or die that a PtE -> snap PtE doesn't also help in. Against Dredge and renegade rallier I think I'd actually prefer it be a snap.
Ive thought about Gideon as an answer to combo decks, the only unfortunate thing is they can direct their damage at him first then kill you, meaning he's really not helping a ton except against fair decks - which I feel are favored anyway. I think it also helps a great deal against DS, but again I think that's a pretty solid matchup.
I play StW over zenith just for the ability to recast with snap. It's won me more games than I would've initially expected. Going to amalek0's sentiment of "turning the corner" - I think that tends to apply more to the bolt snap bolt sequence of QUICKLY turning the corner in a pinch. You always have to turn the corner, eventually we aren't behind anymore. The pendulum swings in our favor around the turn 5/6 mark. Our opponent is running out of gas, while we are just getting started. T5 StW for 4, t6 Snap -> StW for 3 puts us very far ahead in almost every matchup. A common tip you hear from pros is always looking for ways to win; play to your outs. Don't worry about goyf PtE on T2, draw a spell. You've got 20 life, use it. There aren't many decks that can punish us for letting our life reach 6-7 points.
I haven't tested WSZ, so idk if it will just do the job better or not. Generally speaking, decks that bring in GY hate against me are trying to grind out a win, so I feel pretty favored anyway. I'm not worried about t5 StW there, in fact I would probably save it for when I can get a 2-turn alpha strike into the game.
I like the sharper curve of WSZ and the fact it lets you deck the GW infinite life combo player, let's you focus on the plan of stopping the infinite/arbitrarily large high damage output of Anafenza/Redcap instead.
I'm thinking -2 StW +1 WSZ +1 blessed alliance (makes the 2nd MB). BA has grossly over performed for me, not replacing PtE/Push but complementing them (4/2/2 split)
Cherry-picked argument is cherry-picked. Teferi, your tempo aggro win requires a very specific set of cards. My aggressive turning the corner requires one. Meaning I can control until they run out of steam, then win. If you think you've got the same removal as me, let me tell you why you're wrong: bolt doesn't kill when they have anafenza as part of the combo, they just bolster everything infinitely. Nice bolt.
As for past turn 5: I play StW because I know I can cast it and win at roughly any point after turn 5 and win. If you think you can just control every opponent into oblivion, you're not going to be that stellar. I imagine with no t4 wrath your elves, affinity, zoo, bant Eldrazi (3-4 cavern) are pretty dismal.
Continue to play your teachings list. Like I said, I wouldn't. And if I were sleeving up for a GP next weekend, I wouldn't waste the $60 to register your list because it's just not quick enough to turn the corner. Miracles did the same thing: control the game, entreat for 2-4 and ride to victory. Lands plays control until they get a 20/20 into play.
EOT turn 5 against Ad naus, Tap out for Teferi (or tap all but one for teachings) = bad play. But Esper charm discard mode leaving up two for Negate/logic Knot? Good play.
EOT turn 7 Storm you go for Teferi, they'll respond with gifts to set up a "sorcery speed victory" and you'll try to counter it, only to catch remand.
Against living end, I flash in blockers and chump until I have a wrath or I can start PtE'ing dudes. Mystical teaching for Consume the Meek looks real good against THAT army.
Eldrazi Tron makes you look real silly too. You don't have a wrath for them. Your bolts are worthless. Teferi gets stuffed. Kommand is laughable because your dudes just don't match up to a trampling 5/5.
There's merit in the engine, as I have said. It is not in this meta where I want to be. Continue to get flustered and aggressive over it, that's fine. You Aren't making anyone want to switch, and seeing as how you don't play our deck - not sure why you think this is the thread to go to arms over playing the Teaching's engine in a 4c control deck.
tuesday modern for me is 35-40 people, FNM is 40+ People. I haven't missed Top 8 aside from the first event back with Esper. The daily events are slightly more challenging I agree, but at the same time - random decks pull out a 5-0 pretty regularly, decks that aren't Tier 1 but have potential to close out games. I've seen a discard control deck that wasnt 8rack pull it out before.
I didn't say 42% combo, I include DS in decks that have a threat who needs answered within 2 turns.
And I watch a lot of streams, I don't see 40% DS. I'd say 20% would even be generous - it's not a 1 out of 5 matchup, that's for sure.
Top 8 in old PTQ as difficult as a daily event 5-0? Not even close. 150-200 players at the PTQs, and they're putting best foot forward,
Not testing some tech or a new build.
Again, the MTGO metagame is definitely different. Rev for 5 doesn't draw many concessions IRL because the game timer isn't ticking the same it is online. People also aren't trying to just jam out games for experience and reps with the deck IRL, they're playing towards a money finish. In my store, top 8 is auto $20 store credit, winner $50. Usually everyone splits $240 total unless a random shows up who wants to gun for first.
As a competent combo player, I'm not scooping to a control deck who doesn't have a wincon in sight. I can just draw-go for 4-5 turns and reassemble the pieces and the backup. On modo, they concede because of timer and wasted effort trying to fight back. IRL it's much faster to just draw pass turn.
I don't mean to crack into the theory craft vs results, but I don't see where either is supporting the lack of a wincon. 1 StW > 2, I can see. Wsz > StW I can also see. But cutting the wincon? No can do, sarge. I like to end games when the ppporthnity is there.
I'm not worried about it, I know how the card played for me and my playstyle so until the meta in my area changes, it's not where I want to be. More combo or an open field, I think it's better than a known midrange, DS, and aggressive meta.
And not a single copy of Ancestral Visions, yet at least one secure the wastes in each. 5-0 in a daily isn't hard to do with even the worst random decks, so it stands to reason that if you jam SV in an already deck, it will only marginally decrease the decks power level. And note they play 25 lands, not 24.
edit: just saw your edit Annihilator, the Wafo list is (from my MB) -2 Negate -1 StW -1 Land -1 Blessed Alliance; +4 Serum Visions +1 Censor.
Judging by MTGO meta breakdowns, combo and clock decks (those with gameplans that demand an answer within 2 turns) make up roughly 42% of the meta according to the mtggoldfish MTGO meta breakdown. That's excluding Dredge, Burn, Control decks, and Eldrazi Taxes, all of which Are considered matches with less "one shot kill" and more assembling a win.
I think I'll try Censor, but seems worse than Negate in combo matchups, really only seems strong on T2 and I'm not sure it's strictly better. Could be the cycling helps, haven't tested it yet.
I had a lengthy post typed in response to the two of you, swiped from too far left on my phone and lost it all.
I'll shorten the post: games that go past turn 5, we are heavily favored to win, regardless of build. I want cards that get me to that point. Ancestral Visions does not do that. Serum Visions is NOT CARD ADVANTAGE. So instead of drawing 2-3 extra cards that could be answers, you're scrying and hoping to make the right call. And diluting the odds of drawing an answer with the SV, because you play fewer answers.
In regards to Teferi: there isn't a deck out there I would want Teferi against. Living end can consistently go off t4-t5, so he's moot there. Every other combo deck can go off in response to cast, and for you to have counter mana up also you'd need to wait until turn 7, then hope they don't have a counter too (most U-based combo decks play remand or pact). For Mystical teachings to be valuable, you need to last past turn 5. Same for ancestral visions. In every iteration of Esper control, games that go longner than turn 5 are pretty much guaranteed wins. So why dilute the mana base for a slow engine? At this point, you're diluting answer density to increase correct answer consistency - which sounds good until you factor in the resource commitment required. For you to have that consistency, you have to tack 3U onto your spell's CMC. That's fine and well if you're searching for an EOT wrath - but what if the spell you needed was an immediate answer? A fatal push or PtE for their EOT Druid combo? You're shafted.
I'm not saying your lists don't have merits. But based on the meta of: multiple decks with turn 3-5 combo kill, burn, Deaths shadow, Tron, dredge, midrange with a side of combo kill, Jeskai Nahiri, affinity, and Eldrazi? There's no way I want my advantage engine to kick in that late in the game.
You've got roughly a 50% chance of seeing a single copy of a 4-of in your opening hand. That means half of your games won't be starting with an AV in suspend. I'm not sure about how YOUR testing has gone, but in a late-game situation it's one of the worst draws on the back foot. Which is where we fight from quite often.
EDIT: And for just one second, let's just establish this. Turn 2 bolt, turn 3 snap->bolt, turn 4 bolt + bolt + attack, turn 5 attack + bolt is not lethal. To make it happen, you have to make some assumptions, and if we're doing that then we can also assume there are multiple times that the sequence just WONT get there, and you lose. I.e. Opponent has a 2/3 or bigger goyf on T2, from fetch + tseize. Drawing into a Teferi or a Mystical teachings anywhere in your sequence just ruins your tempo win. Drawing into a StW let's you put bodies on the ground and clog up the board while you find your answer.
3 extraction effects with 2 snap - care to share how that's performing?
Edit: does anyone remember hive mind combo? Wonder how that deck would do these days. Turn 5 free wins
@annihilator: I was just wondering if anyone had tried it, but the discard point is valid (as is PtE point). Not gonna try it tomorrow then. 30-40 people show up on Tuesday's and I almost always play 1 shadow player.
@espershardmage: what's your 75 look like?
Question: does anyone extract DS if it ends up in the yard? I haven't, but I feel like knocking out 30-50% of their threat count could be strong.
So you play 2 snap, 4 verdict?
I haven't tested WSZ, so idk if it will just do the job better or not. Generally speaking, decks that bring in GY hate against me are trying to grind out a win, so I feel pretty favored anyway. I'm not worried about t5 StW there, in fact I would probably save it for when I can get a 2-turn alpha strike into the game.
I like the sharper curve of WSZ and the fact it lets you deck the GW infinite life combo player, let's you focus on the plan of stopping the infinite/arbitrarily large high damage output of Anafenza/Redcap instead.
I'm thinking -2 StW +1 WSZ +1 blessed alliance (makes the 2nd MB). BA has grossly over performed for me, not replacing PtE/Push but complementing them (4/2/2 split)
As for past turn 5: I play StW because I know I can cast it and win at roughly any point after turn 5 and win. If you think you can just control every opponent into oblivion, you're not going to be that stellar. I imagine with no t4 wrath your elves, affinity, zoo, bant Eldrazi (3-4 cavern) are pretty dismal.
Continue to play your teachings list. Like I said, I wouldn't. And if I were sleeving up for a GP next weekend, I wouldn't waste the $60 to register your list because it's just not quick enough to turn the corner. Miracles did the same thing: control the game, entreat for 2-4 and ride to victory. Lands plays control until they get a 20/20 into play.
EOT turn 5 against Ad naus, Tap out for Teferi (or tap all but one for teachings) = bad play. But Esper charm discard mode leaving up two for Negate/logic Knot? Good play.
EOT turn 7 Storm you go for Teferi, they'll respond with gifts to set up a "sorcery speed victory" and you'll try to counter it, only to catch remand.
Against living end, I flash in blockers and chump until I have a wrath or I can start PtE'ing dudes. Mystical teaching for Consume the Meek looks real good against THAT army.
Eldrazi Tron makes you look real silly too. You don't have a wrath for them. Your bolts are worthless. Teferi gets stuffed. Kommand is laughable because your dudes just don't match up to a trampling 5/5.
There's merit in the engine, as I have said. It is not in this meta where I want to be. Continue to get flustered and aggressive over it, that's fine. You Aren't making anyone want to switch, and seeing as how you don't play our deck - not sure why you think this is the thread to go to arms over playing the Teaching's engine in a 4c control deck.
I didn't say 42% combo, I include DS in decks that have a threat who needs answered within 2 turns.
And I watch a lot of streams, I don't see 40% DS. I'd say 20% would even be generous - it's not a 1 out of 5 matchup, that's for sure.
Top 8 in old PTQ as difficult as a daily event 5-0? Not even close. 150-200 players at the PTQs, and they're putting best foot forward,
Not testing some tech or a new build.
Again, the MTGO metagame is definitely different. Rev for 5 doesn't draw many concessions IRL because the game timer isn't ticking the same it is online. People also aren't trying to just jam out games for experience and reps with the deck IRL, they're playing towards a money finish. In my store, top 8 is auto $20 store credit, winner $50. Usually everyone splits $240 total unless a random shows up who wants to gun for first.
As a competent combo player, I'm not scooping to a control deck who doesn't have a wincon in sight. I can just draw-go for 4-5 turns and reassemble the pieces and the backup. On modo, they concede because of timer and wasted effort trying to fight back. IRL it's much faster to just draw pass turn.
I don't mean to crack into the theory craft vs results, but I don't see where either is supporting the lack of a wincon. 1 StW > 2, I can see. Wsz > StW I can also see. But cutting the wincon? No can do, sarge. I like to end games when the ppporthnity is there.
edit: just saw your edit Annihilator, the Wafo list is (from my MB) -2 Negate -1 StW -1 Land -1 Blessed Alliance; +4 Serum Visions +1 Censor.
Judging by MTGO meta breakdowns, combo and clock decks (those with gameplans that demand an answer within 2 turns) make up roughly 42% of the meta according to the mtggoldfish MTGO meta breakdown. That's excluding Dredge, Burn, Control decks, and Eldrazi Taxes, all of which Are considered matches with less "one shot kill" and more assembling a win.
I think I'll try Censor, but seems worse than Negate in combo matchups, really only seems strong on T2 and I'm not sure it's strictly better. Could be the cycling helps, haven't tested it yet.
I like Gideon Jura, I want him in my 75 somewhere/somehow. Just don't know where.
The thing I hate about online is the meta skew, certain decks under or over-represented. I play almost strictly paper
I'll shorten the post: games that go past turn 5, we are heavily favored to win, regardless of build. I want cards that get me to that point. Ancestral Visions does not do that. Serum Visions is NOT CARD ADVANTAGE. So instead of drawing 2-3 extra cards that could be answers, you're scrying and hoping to make the right call. And diluting the odds of drawing an answer with the SV, because you play fewer answers.
In regards to Teferi: there isn't a deck out there I would want Teferi against. Living end can consistently go off t4-t5, so he's moot there. Every other combo deck can go off in response to cast, and for you to have counter mana up also you'd need to wait until turn 7, then hope they don't have a counter too (most U-based combo decks play remand or pact). For Mystical teachings to be valuable, you need to last past turn 5. Same for ancestral visions. In every iteration of Esper control, games that go longner than turn 5 are pretty much guaranteed wins. So why dilute the mana base for a slow engine? At this point, you're diluting answer density to increase correct answer consistency - which sounds good until you factor in the resource commitment required. For you to have that consistency, you have to tack 3U onto your spell's CMC. That's fine and well if you're searching for an EOT wrath - but what if the spell you needed was an immediate answer? A fatal push or PtE for their EOT Druid combo? You're shafted.
I'm not saying your lists don't have merits. But based on the meta of: multiple decks with turn 3-5 combo kill, burn, Deaths shadow, Tron, dredge, midrange with a side of combo kill, Jeskai Nahiri, affinity, and Eldrazi? There's no way I want my advantage engine to kick in that late in the game.
You've got roughly a 50% chance of seeing a single copy of a 4-of in your opening hand. That means half of your games won't be starting with an AV in suspend. I'm not sure about how YOUR testing has gone, but in a late-game situation it's one of the worst draws on the back foot. Which is where we fight from quite often.
EDIT: And for just one second, let's just establish this. Turn 2 bolt, turn 3 snap->bolt, turn 4 bolt + bolt + attack, turn 5 attack + bolt is not lethal. To make it happen, you have to make some assumptions, and if we're doing that then we can also assume there are multiple times that the sequence just WONT get there, and you lose. I.e. Opponent has a 2/3 or bigger goyf on T2, from fetch + tseize. Drawing into a Teferi or a Mystical teachings anywhere in your sequence just ruins your tempo win. Drawing into a StW let's you put bodies on the ground and clog up the board while you find your answer.