Against DS, i board in 2 leyline of the void personally. Also bring in the baneslayer and runed halos. I don't want much countermagic against the discard decks. For dredge and vizier, generic GY hate. Not on spellbomb plan myself, doesn't present an evergreen solution to dredge - 1 shot wipe is rarely enough.
Company combo is pretty swingy, EOT coco is value but don't let them untap with druid
Edit: can we stop using "people scoop to card advantage" as a Wincon? In any tournament with high stakes (re: Vegas) , your opponent isn't scooping until you put the last nail in the coffin. Doesn't matter if you have a full grip or not.
I like that list Cody. I'd be MB leyline at Vegas. DS, Abzan, Storm, and multiple other top tiered decks are hurt. That's where I'd be. Grixis DS and abzan combo are likely most represented, Eldrazi Tron and storm followed by Affinity and burn. Only deck that completely disregards it G1 is Affinity.
3 extraction effects with 2 snap - care to share how that's performing?
Edit: does anyone remember hive mind combo? Wonder how that deck would do these days. Turn 5 free wins
I actually really prefer extirpate. In our deck, I don't know why surgical is ever the "right" call. The amount of times I've had someone respond to surgical has been enough of a warning to me that I want split second. Especially against company, storm (they try going off inresp), Ad naus goes for it, dredge cracks a fetch or uses neonate to instant speed draw and pick the dredger up (if they're experienced and leave neonate in play for the 2-4-1), cheeri0s tries to go off inresp, snapcaster targeting surgical's target in control mirrors, every once in awhile a savvy opponent will exile their own yard inresp to surgical in order to save their combo pieces (relic in scapeshift/Tron serves this purpose), and multiple other reasons. We should always have the mana open anyway, so there's no reason in my opinion to play surgical here. Just the thoughts I've had on it.
@annihilator: I was just wondering if anyone had tried it, but the discard point is valid (as is PtE point). Not gonna try it tomorrow then. 30-40 people show up on Tuesday's and I almost always play 1 shadow player.
Cherry-picked argument is cherry-picked. Teferi, your tempo aggro win requires a very specific set of cards. My aggressive turning the corner requires one. Meaning I can control until they run out of steam, then win. If you think you've got the same removal as me, let me tell you why you're wrong: bolt doesn't kill when they have anafenza as part of the combo, they just bolster everything infinitely. Nice bolt.
As for past turn 5: I play StW because I know I can cast it and win at roughly any point after turn 5 and win. If you think you can just control every opponent into oblivion, you're not going to be that stellar. I imagine with no t4 wrath your elves, affinity, zoo, bant Eldrazi (3-4 cavern) are pretty dismal.
Continue to play your teachings list. Like I said, I wouldn't. And if I were sleeving up for a GP next weekend, I wouldn't waste the $60 to register your list because it's just not quick enough to turn the corner. Miracles did the same thing: control the game, entreat for 2-4 and ride to victory. Lands plays control until they get a 20/20 into play.
EOT turn 5 against Ad naus, Tap out for Teferi (or tap all but one for teachings) = bad play. But Esper charm discard mode leaving up two for Negate/logic Knot? Good play.
EOT turn 7 Storm you go for Teferi, they'll respond with gifts to set up a "sorcery speed victory" and you'll try to counter it, only to catch remand.
Against living end, I flash in blockers and chump until I have a wrath or I can start PtE'ing dudes. Mystical teaching for Consume the Meek looks real good against THAT army.
Eldrazi Tron makes you look real silly too. You don't have a wrath for them. Your bolts are worthless. Teferi gets stuffed. Kommand is laughable because your dudes just don't match up to a trampling 5/5.
There's merit in the engine, as I have said. It is not in this meta where I want to be. Continue to get flustered and aggressive over it, that's fine. You Aren't making anyone want to switch, and seeing as how you don't play our deck - not sure why you think this is the thread to go to arms over playing the Teaching's engine in a 4c control deck.
I play StW over zenith just for the ability to recast with snap. It's won me more games than I would've initially expected. Going to amalek0's sentiment of "turning the corner" - I think that tends to apply more to the bolt snap bolt sequence of QUICKLY turning the corner in a pinch. You always have to turn the corner, eventually we aren't behind anymore. The pendulum swings in our favor around the turn 5/6 mark. Our opponent is running out of gas, while we are just getting started. T5 StW for 4, t6 Snap -> StW for 3 puts us very far ahead in almost every matchup. A common tip you hear from pros is always looking for ways to win; play to your outs. Don't worry about goyf PtE on T2, draw a spell. You've got 20 life, use it. There aren't many decks that can punish us for letting our life reach 6-7 points.
I haven't tested WSZ, so idk if it will just do the job better or not. Generally speaking, decks that bring in GY hate against me are trying to grind out a win, so I feel pretty favored anyway. I'm not worried about t5 StW there, in fact I would probably save it for when I can get a 2-turn alpha strike into the game.
I like the sharper curve of WSZ and the fact it lets you deck the GW infinite life combo player, let's you focus on the plan of stopping the infinite/arbitrarily large high damage output of Anafenza/Redcap instead.
I'm thinking -2 StW +1 WSZ +1 blessed alliance (makes the 2nd MB). BA has grossly over performed for me, not replacing PtE/Push but complementing them (4/2/2 split)
tuesday modern for me is 35-40 people, FNM is 40+ People. I haven't missed Top 8 aside from the first event back with Esper. The daily events are slightly more challenging I agree, but at the same time - random decks pull out a 5-0 pretty regularly, decks that aren't Tier 1 but have potential to close out games. I've seen a discard control deck that wasnt 8rack pull it out before.
I didn't say 42% combo, I include DS in decks that have a threat who needs answered within 2 turns.
And I watch a lot of streams, I don't see 40% DS. I'd say 20% would even be generous - it's not a 1 out of 5 matchup, that's for sure.
Top 8 in old PTQ as difficult as a daily event 5-0? Not even close. 150-200 players at the PTQs, and they're putting best foot forward,
Not testing some tech or a new build.
Again, the MTGO metagame is definitely different. Rev for 5 doesn't draw many concessions IRL because the game timer isn't ticking the same it is online. People also aren't trying to just jam out games for experience and reps with the deck IRL, they're playing towards a money finish. In my store, top 8 is auto $20 store credit, winner $50. Usually everyone splits $240 total unless a random shows up who wants to gun for first.
As a competent combo player, I'm not scooping to a control deck who doesn't have a wincon in sight. I can just draw-go for 4-5 turns and reassemble the pieces and the backup. On modo, they concede because of timer and wasted effort trying to fight back. IRL it's much faster to just draw pass turn.
I don't mean to crack into the theory craft vs results, but I don't see where either is supporting the lack of a wincon. 1 StW > 2, I can see. Wsz > StW I can also see. But cutting the wincon? No can do, sarge. I like to end games when the ppporthnity is there.
Relying on snap/manlands to win the game is essentially forfeiting every game 1, because they will either have dead removal waiting or they will have a combo that wins before turn 10 (the turn a Colonnade does lethal). Sure, you have counters - but not if you're dedicating 5 mana a turn to attack. Instead, dedicate 5 mana on one EOT and have the same power spread out.
How often have you lost to combo or Deaths shadow and still had cards in hand? For me, it is common to have 3-5 cards in hand at the end of those games. They out-tempo us. So we play cards to catch up (verdict, charm, TT) but if they have answers for our answers (3 stubborn denial, another threat, remand) then you just lose.
I understand what you're saying about "smooth" and trust me, I tried to play with the AV/SV plan. I don't own a playset of AV and NOT try to jam them in everything that has potential. What I found was lack of card quality. Drawing too many cards to do nothing. The "X" spells are why I play this deck. The manlands and snaps rarely get there G1, when they do it's a very long, drawn out game that could've been lost by a strong sequence of topdecks from the opponent. I've never lost a game that I resolved StW for X=>4. Against goyf decks, you have blockers til you find answers. Against DS, you are employing the single strategy that has a great game against them: tokens. That's why Bant Eldrazi trashes DS. Against valakut, their entire deck is sorcery speed. So you just have GG against them with EOT StW because you can leave up 2-3 counters on their turns.
In culmination, I've not found the deck to be clunky or inconsistent. I play 2 decently sized modern events every week, and while I was more prone to 2-0 an opponent when I played Eldrazi Taxes briefly, the deck had serious issues with consistency and power level. I don't feel that with Esper. I've come back and beat Suicide Zoo from 1 life in back to back games, I've only lost to one of the three dredge matches I've played, the one loss to Eldrazi Tron was a punt on my end... the deck is powerful, and secure the wastes has been a huge part in shoring up otherwise unwinnable games.
It's not a matter of "this deck wants answers, don't play StW" because as BadMcFadden said - it's often an ambush card. T4 They tick lily back up again and they still have 4 cards in hand so you can't cryptic bounce on trigger, fine. EOT make 3 tokens, untap and punish. If they throw some removal at them, you're winning that game because t6 you're going to untap and Colonnade confidently. Blocker on T2 against a bob that's swinging in - I'll take that all day. If they spend a card to kill it, you're doing just fine.
StW is an X spell in a deck that wants to go long. Ancestral/Serum Visions are cool, but I think they belong in more 1-4-1 decks like Grixis or straight UB control. StW has no deckbuilding cost, there aren't many cards I'd like to squeeze in. 7 spot removal, 9 counters, 3 sweepers - I'm pretty happy with that setup, especially with 3 snapcaster. In the same notion, your teferi is an expensive dude that will get all removal finally out of their hand. Sure, you can bother countering it, or letting it resolve and casting Kommand, but why turn removal on in the first place? For the same mana, you can spread the power out over multiple bodies and make the deck exceptionally easier to win.
Edit: @PimpDonny - I like the new list. How does 4 verdict play for you? I've gotten a 2nd / 3rd copy stuck in hand and been frustrated. Also: WSZ vs StW, do you ever find yourself wishing you had a second copy against control mirrors, if you play them?
1
Company combo is pretty swingy, EOT coco is value but don't let them untap with druid
Edit: can we stop using "people scoop to card advantage" as a Wincon? In any tournament with high stakes (re: Vegas) , your opponent isn't scooping until you put the last nail in the coffin. Doesn't matter if you have a full grip or not.
1
3 extraction effects with 2 snap - care to share how that's performing?
Edit: does anyone remember hive mind combo? Wonder how that deck would do these days. Turn 5 free wins
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@annihilator: I was just wondering if anyone had tried it, but the discard point is valid (as is PtE point). Not gonna try it tomorrow then. 30-40 people show up on Tuesday's and I almost always play 1 shadow player.
@espershardmage: what's your 75 look like?
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As for past turn 5: I play StW because I know I can cast it and win at roughly any point after turn 5 and win. If you think you can just control every opponent into oblivion, you're not going to be that stellar. I imagine with no t4 wrath your elves, affinity, zoo, bant Eldrazi (3-4 cavern) are pretty dismal.
Continue to play your teachings list. Like I said, I wouldn't. And if I were sleeving up for a GP next weekend, I wouldn't waste the $60 to register your list because it's just not quick enough to turn the corner. Miracles did the same thing: control the game, entreat for 2-4 and ride to victory. Lands plays control until they get a 20/20 into play.
EOT turn 5 against Ad naus, Tap out for Teferi (or tap all but one for teachings) = bad play. But Esper charm discard mode leaving up two for Negate/logic Knot? Good play.
EOT turn 7 Storm you go for Teferi, they'll respond with gifts to set up a "sorcery speed victory" and you'll try to counter it, only to catch remand.
Against living end, I flash in blockers and chump until I have a wrath or I can start PtE'ing dudes. Mystical teaching for Consume the Meek looks real good against THAT army.
Eldrazi Tron makes you look real silly too. You don't have a wrath for them. Your bolts are worthless. Teferi gets stuffed. Kommand is laughable because your dudes just don't match up to a trampling 5/5.
There's merit in the engine, as I have said. It is not in this meta where I want to be. Continue to get flustered and aggressive over it, that's fine. You Aren't making anyone want to switch, and seeing as how you don't play our deck - not sure why you think this is the thread to go to arms over playing the Teaching's engine in a 4c control deck.
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I haven't tested WSZ, so idk if it will just do the job better or not. Generally speaking, decks that bring in GY hate against me are trying to grind out a win, so I feel pretty favored anyway. I'm not worried about t5 StW there, in fact I would probably save it for when I can get a 2-turn alpha strike into the game.
I like the sharper curve of WSZ and the fact it lets you deck the GW infinite life combo player, let's you focus on the plan of stopping the infinite/arbitrarily large high damage output of Anafenza/Redcap instead.
I'm thinking -2 StW +1 WSZ +1 blessed alliance (makes the 2nd MB). BA has grossly over performed for me, not replacing PtE/Push but complementing them (4/2/2 split)
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I didn't say 42% combo, I include DS in decks that have a threat who needs answered within 2 turns.
And I watch a lot of streams, I don't see 40% DS. I'd say 20% would even be generous - it's not a 1 out of 5 matchup, that's for sure.
Top 8 in old PTQ as difficult as a daily event 5-0? Not even close. 150-200 players at the PTQs, and they're putting best foot forward,
Not testing some tech or a new build.
Again, the MTGO metagame is definitely different. Rev for 5 doesn't draw many concessions IRL because the game timer isn't ticking the same it is online. People also aren't trying to just jam out games for experience and reps with the deck IRL, they're playing towards a money finish. In my store, top 8 is auto $20 store credit, winner $50. Usually everyone splits $240 total unless a random shows up who wants to gun for first.
As a competent combo player, I'm not scooping to a control deck who doesn't have a wincon in sight. I can just draw-go for 4-5 turns and reassemble the pieces and the backup. On modo, they concede because of timer and wasted effort trying to fight back. IRL it's much faster to just draw pass turn.
I don't mean to crack into the theory craft vs results, but I don't see where either is supporting the lack of a wincon. 1 StW > 2, I can see. Wsz > StW I can also see. But cutting the wincon? No can do, sarge. I like to end games when the ppporthnity is there.
1
How often have you lost to combo or Deaths shadow and still had cards in hand? For me, it is common to have 3-5 cards in hand at the end of those games. They out-tempo us. So we play cards to catch up (verdict, charm, TT) but if they have answers for our answers (3 stubborn denial, another threat, remand) then you just lose.
I understand what you're saying about "smooth" and trust me, I tried to play with the AV/SV plan. I don't own a playset of AV and NOT try to jam them in everything that has potential. What I found was lack of card quality. Drawing too many cards to do nothing. The "X" spells are why I play this deck. The manlands and snaps rarely get there G1, when they do it's a very long, drawn out game that could've been lost by a strong sequence of topdecks from the opponent. I've never lost a game that I resolved StW for X=>4. Against goyf decks, you have blockers til you find answers. Against DS, you are employing the single strategy that has a great game against them: tokens. That's why Bant Eldrazi trashes DS. Against valakut, their entire deck is sorcery speed. So you just have GG against them with EOT StW because you can leave up 2-3 counters on their turns.
In culmination, I've not found the deck to be clunky or inconsistent. I play 2 decently sized modern events every week, and while I was more prone to 2-0 an opponent when I played Eldrazi Taxes briefly, the deck had serious issues with consistency and power level. I don't feel that with Esper. I've come back and beat Suicide Zoo from 1 life in back to back games, I've only lost to one of the three dredge matches I've played, the one loss to Eldrazi Tron was a punt on my end... the deck is powerful, and secure the wastes has been a huge part in shoring up otherwise unwinnable games.
It's not a matter of "this deck wants answers, don't play StW" because as BadMcFadden said - it's often an ambush card. T4 They tick lily back up again and they still have 4 cards in hand so you can't cryptic bounce on trigger, fine. EOT make 3 tokens, untap and punish. If they throw some removal at them, you're winning that game because t6 you're going to untap and Colonnade confidently. Blocker on T2 against a bob that's swinging in - I'll take that all day. If they spend a card to kill it, you're doing just fine.
StW is an X spell in a deck that wants to go long. Ancestral/Serum Visions are cool, but I think they belong in more 1-4-1 decks like Grixis or straight UB control. StW has no deckbuilding cost, there aren't many cards I'd like to squeeze in. 7 spot removal, 9 counters, 3 sweepers - I'm pretty happy with that setup, especially with 3 snapcaster. In the same notion, your teferi is an expensive dude that will get all removal finally out of their hand. Sure, you can bother countering it, or letting it resolve and casting Kommand, but why turn removal on in the first place? For the same mana, you can spread the power out over multiple bodies and make the deck exceptionally easier to win.
Edit: @PimpDonny - I like the new list. How does 4 verdict play for you? I've gotten a 2nd / 3rd copy stuck in hand and been frustrated. Also: WSZ vs StW, do you ever find yourself wishing you had a second copy against control mirrors, if you play them?
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