From my limited experience with Rock, valakut is rough. Discard is really good here because they have limited card draw/selection. I also run a 1-of shadow of doubt for that extra surprise factor.
Thanks for the detailed answer and general tips! I'll try and apply that to the future jeskai encounters. Reading your post, it seems to me that lingering souls is the key to the matchup and the way to break the ressource trading equity somehow. However, being in straight BG, I guess Confidant is the definite all-star then since by resolving and keeping him around, you eventually pull ahead and have more chance of running them out of ressources before you do.
I'll definitely try adding the fulminators (run 3 SB); my current sideboard plan was to only bring in 3x leyline of the void to try and keep them off snappy as much as possible as well as Thrun. For reference, here's what I'm running with at the moment:
I've recently started playing BG rock as a first entry in this archetype - in large parts because the mana is so solid - but have been struggling mightily against Jeskai control. Seems like it's really hard to go 1-for-1 with them and I often just get out-ground.
Any suggestions main/side board to help shore up the matchup ?
I know Rallier and the new Saffi combo are all the rage wight now but I'd like to know what are your thoughts on the Archangel/Spike Feeder package? I personnally still play it because it is not reliant on the graveyard and thus, gets around Relic and RIP. Also, Spike feeder acts as a pseudo Finks #5 in the burn matchup as a way to gain 4 and eat a bolt which is nice value. For reference, here's the list I'm currently running :
I'm looking to add the Ralliers while still keeping the Angel/Feeder but maindeck space is tight. I'm thinking -1 Eternal Witness, -1 Viscera Seer, +2 Renegade Rallier. Also, moving the Scooze to the Sideboard to add the second Voice of Resurgence maindeck to improve the Value Rallier plan. My meta is split between Aggro and Control (esper draw-go, blue moon, grixis) with some (common) rogue decks such as 8-Rack.
Ok ... just a thought, but wouldn't Renegade Rallier be better as a replacement to Wall of Roots if it can effectively do the same job with Chord (provided a revolt trigger and a fetchland in the yard) while also providing additional utility in terms of recurring combo pieces? Like right now Im tempted to run a full set of Witness and duo Ralliers, but I'm aware that three mana is greater than two.
I'll certainly be trying it. With Fatal Push around, wall of roots is much less appealing.
Do you guys think this deck would be viable without the simian spirit guides? I'm considering picking up the stuff I'm missing to build the deck but I'm worried that, should ssg get banned come AER update, it would all go to waste. :/
I figure that the Familiars could help out more with the Burn matchup (although it already seems pretty good, it could be better). It might be better to have some mix of Familiar/Spatial Contortion in those four spots, but I'm not sure.
I think Familiar might be the way to go with your build. Thragtusks are potentially nicer but a bit more expensive as well and for the time being, probably not worth the investment as they're not core cards. The burn matchup is always bad, no matter what. As for the spatial contorsion/familiar split, if the idea is to slow down burn, I like Contortion better and here's why:
Familliar "prevents" roughly 4-5 damage assuming it eats a bolt(+2 from ETB, +2 or +3 of spell damage dragged away from face). Contorsion prevents anywhere between 2 to XX damage where XX is your life total depending on the creature you hit (Eidolon, Swiftspear, Nacatl, Goblin Guide). It's also instant speed and 1 CMC less but doesn't cantrip. If you had better red mana, I'd suggest Bolts but I understand it's hard to have easy red/green without groves.
So just got back from the LGS, built my son a budget version of RG Tron since he was getting tired of Bogles and Burn. We plan on slowly buying the expensive cards as time goes on. For now, this is his build:
The LGS didn't have Expedition Maps or Ancient Stirrings, so going to have to order those online. We tested this build against Burn and it did extremely well.
I want to try to work on a sideboard for him, and maybe tweak the main deck a bit. I figure we could probably put some number of Contortions in the sideboard, along with a Trading Post or two, cut a Spine, cut the Familiars. The deck seems to perform very well as is, but I want to make it better. I was going through and thinking about what cards in the side we would want for various matchups. I figure a preliminary sideboard would be 4 Nature's Claim and 2 Ancient Grudge. I noticed that Warping Wail is very popular as a 3-of in many RG Tron sideboards. Is there a specific reason for this? What matchup(s) are these good for? I suppose they're nice for Affinity, and maybe Infect. A matchup I was specifically curious about was Bogles. I'm guessing that Ugin and Oblivion Stone are key in that matchup, but otherwise, what's the plan there? Thanks!
Warping Wail has been overperforming a lot for me against Scapeshift and post-board hate cards like Crumble to dust. Also, as you mentioned, it helps not only deal with affinity or infect but also mana dorks such as birds of paradise and noble hierarchs. It's just a catch-all answer to a lot of problematic stuff. My answer to boggles is basically Ugin or bust but I guess you could bring in Back to Natures or even Perilous Vaults as a budget replacement for O-Stone if they are really that frequent in your meta. Relic of Progenitus and/or Grafdigger's cage would be good inclusions against graveyard strategies and sudden shock is a must for infect. IMHO, ancient grudge is overkill if you already have 4 pyroclasms and some number of mass removal. Your build looks nice for a budget introduction but seems a bit threat-light. I think World Breaker would be a good threat MB and not that expensive moneywise as well! Sanctum of Ugin would be a nice add along with a package of (budget) Eldrazi threats (Conduit of Ruin, Pathrazer of Ulamog, Oblivion Sower?).
What do you guys think about the bolts variant vs the pyroclasm/firespout/Kozilek's return ? I've tried bolts for the first time tonight and got severely punished.
G1 : Naya Burn with Nacatl - Pyro would've been a lot better if it weren't for the nacatl's. still lost.
G2 : Infect - I don't really see the advantage of having bolts over pyroclasm. Maybe to bolt an inkmoth? Even then, seems meh
G3 : 8Rack - irrelevant mostly. Only creatures he played were Bobs which die to pyro
G4 : Boggles - Another fringe deck but hey, need I comment on this?
Looking at the Meta, it seems to me that Pyroclasm is more useful than Bolt in like 70% of matchups and especially in the poor one. Sure, the dream of bolting a T2 Goyf or a Lilli will happen but is it worth it? I'm probably missing something here but in the mean time, Pyro will be my choice:P
okay boys and girls, need your help. Doing a modern RPTQ in december (which i qualified for playing RG tron), after trying out different decks that can deal with the aggro meta im expecting. I hate it. Cant play them, not enjoying them, I lose focus and start making mistakes. Ive decided to bring RG tron. and im going to be testing out a list running a couple platinum angels (maybe 3) i feel for the most part alot of these aggro decks dont have a maindeck way to deal with this card and it would equal free wins. Then once the sideboard games come around i have more tailored answers/threats.
do you think im crazy? could be a reasonable plan? feed back people!lets get me there!
Not sure which aggro decks you expect but let's go through the list of Goldfish :
MB/SB
Affinity : GBlast/ancient grudge(dismember)
Infect : (dismember)/Nature's Claim, dismember
Naya Burn : you end up paying 7 mana to prevent 6 damage. Not sure if it's worth diluting threats to achieve this
Bant Eldrazi : Path/dismembers
Zoo: nothing!/path, grudge, dismember
Merfolk : (dismember)/hurkyl's recall
I've put in parenthesis the least likely option but clearly, the aggro decks out there have an answer (especially Eldrazi which should be the more common of the bunch) . I think it may steal a game or two but it should cost you more than it does good in the end. I could be wrong though so if you try the Angel out, let us know the results!
It seems pretty "oath of nissa" or bust. Without any way to search it, I have the feeling it'll be fairly inconsistent and your hand will be cluttered with uncastable stuff. Sure, the nicol bolas/oath shenanigans is cool but I'm not so sure about it's consistency.
made a couple changes to my deck. took out anticipate for a singleton epiphany at the drownyard. also running 4 main deck spatial contortions. card is perfect removal for this deck and allows me to cut black.
It definitely has improved the burn and other aggro matchups for me! Do you still run dismembers though? I have 2 spatial contorsion main and 2 sb and can't find room for dismembers which hurts a lot when playing grixis delver.
I'll definitely try adding the fulminators (run 3 SB); my current sideboard plan was to only bring in 3x leyline of the void to try and keep them off snappy as much as possible as well as Thrun. For reference, here's what I'm running with at the moment:
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Blooming Marsh
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Hissing Quagmire
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
1 Geth's Verdict
1 Putrefy
2 Collective Brutality
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Ramunap Excavator
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Shadow of Doubt
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Damnation
2 Flaying Tendrils
I've recently started playing BG rock as a first entry in this archetype - in large parts because the mana is so solid - but have been struggling mightily against Jeskai control. Seems like it's really hard to go 1-for-1 with them and I often just get out-ground.
Any suggestions main/side board to help shore up the matchup ?
More than anything, it is a testament to how good the combo is if it can get this jank to go 5-0 :,)
The detail of the math can be found in Karsten's article here
It's pretty solid math. I didn't bother doing it myself but I'd be interested to know where you got your 80% from.
I know Rallier and the new Saffi combo are all the rage wight now but I'd like to know what are your thoughts on the Archangel/Spike Feeder package? I personnally still play it because it is not reliant on the graveyard and thus, gets around Relic and RIP. Also, Spike feeder acts as a pseudo Finks #5 in the burn matchup as a way to gain 4 and eat a bolt which is nice value. For reference, here's the list I'm currently running :
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Viscera Seer
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Spike Feeder
ToolBox
1 Spellskite
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Voice of Resurgence
Core
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Eternal Witness
2 Wall of Roots
Lands
1 Swamp
2 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Path to Exile
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sin Collector
1 Voice of Resurgence
1 Orzhov Pontiff
I'm looking to add the Ralliers while still keeping the Angel/Feeder but maindeck space is tight. I'm thinking -1 Eternal Witness, -1 Viscera Seer, +2 Renegade Rallier. Also, moving the Scooze to the Sideboard to add the second Voice of Resurgence maindeck to improve the Value Rallier plan. My meta is split between Aggro and Control (esper draw-go, blue moon, grixis) with some (common) rogue decks such as 8-Rack.
I'll certainly be trying it. With Fatal Push around, wall of roots is much less appealing.
I think Familiar might be the way to go with your build. Thragtusks are potentially nicer but a bit more expensive as well and for the time being, probably not worth the investment as they're not core cards. The burn matchup is always bad, no matter what. As for the spatial contorsion/familiar split, if the idea is to slow down burn, I like Contortion better and here's why:
Familliar "prevents" roughly 4-5 damage assuming it eats a bolt(+2 from ETB, +2 or +3 of spell damage dragged away from face). Contorsion prevents anywhere between 2 to XX damage where XX is your life total depending on the creature you hit (Eidolon, Swiftspear, Nacatl, Goblin Guide). It's also instant speed and 1 CMC less but doesn't cantrip. If you had better red mana, I'd suggest Bolts but I understand it's hard to have easy red/green without groves.
Warping Wail has been overperforming a lot for me against Scapeshift and post-board hate cards like Crumble to dust. Also, as you mentioned, it helps not only deal with affinity or infect but also mana dorks such as birds of paradise and noble hierarchs. It's just a catch-all answer to a lot of problematic stuff. My answer to boggles is basically Ugin or bust but I guess you could bring in Back to Natures or even Perilous Vaults as a budget replacement for O-Stone if they are really that frequent in your meta. Relic of Progenitus and/or Grafdigger's cage would be good inclusions against graveyard strategies and sudden shock is a must for infect. IMHO, ancient grudge is overkill if you already have 4 pyroclasms and some number of mass removal. Your build looks nice for a budget introduction but seems a bit threat-light. I think World Breaker would be a good threat MB and not that expensive moneywise as well! Sanctum of Ugin would be a nice add along with a package of (budget) Eldrazi threats (Conduit of Ruin, Pathrazer of Ulamog, Oblivion Sower?).
G1 : Naya Burn with Nacatl - Pyro would've been a lot better if it weren't for the nacatl's. still lost.
G2 : Infect - I don't really see the advantage of having bolts over pyroclasm. Maybe to bolt an inkmoth? Even then, seems meh
G3 : 8Rack - irrelevant mostly. Only creatures he played were Bobs which die to pyro
G4 : Boggles - Another fringe deck but hey, need I comment on this?
Looking at the Meta, it seems to me that Pyroclasm is more useful than Bolt in like 70% of matchups and especially in the poor one. Sure, the dream of bolting a T2 Goyf or a Lilli will happen but is it worth it? I'm probably missing something here but in the mean time, Pyro will be my choice:P
Not sure which aggro decks you expect but let's go through the list of Goldfish :
MB/SB
Affinity : GBlast/ancient grudge(dismember)
Infect : (dismember)/Nature's Claim, dismember
Naya Burn : you end up paying 7 mana to prevent 6 damage. Not sure if it's worth diluting threats to achieve this
Bant Eldrazi : Path/dismembers
Zoo: nothing!/path, grudge, dismember
Merfolk : (dismember)/hurkyl's recall
I've put in parenthesis the least likely option but clearly, the aggro decks out there have an answer (especially Eldrazi which should be the more common of the bunch) . I think it may steal a game or two but it should cost you more than it does good in the end. I could be wrong though so if you try the Angel out, let us know the results!
It seems pretty "oath of nissa" or bust. Without any way to search it, I have the feeling it'll be fairly inconsistent and your hand will be cluttered with uncastable stuff. Sure, the nicol bolas/oath shenanigans is cool but I'm not so sure about it's consistency.
It definitely has improved the burn and other aggro matchups for me! Do you still run dismembers though? I have 2 spatial contorsion main and 2 sb and can't find room for dismembers which hurts a lot when playing grixis delver.