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  • posted a message on [[Official]] General Discussion of the Official Multiplayer Banlist
    Quote from cryogen »
    I don't think I would have worded it quite like Buffsam did, but I have to agree with them that encouraging people to quit a format is a bad idea and one that is not healthy for the long-term growth of the format.


    Well, sometimes you gotta call a spade a spade. It’s an elitist attitude and honestly has no place in this format or the game in general.

    Listen, I’m all for playing games to get your own personal enjoyment out of them. That’s the reason you play them to begin with. But, sometimes you need take a step back and realize the game you are about to play is a little bit bigger than yourself. 99% of the time, I never remember who won or who lost, but I will always remember the overall experience, and I’d like to think that is true for most players.

    Beyond that, one thing I cannot stand about comments like that(among some other comments made by other users in this thread) is it furthers the negative stereotype about MTG players or those with similar hobbies. While I understand this is an online forum for MTG, with the way world works nowadays, I have very little faith that most of this banter is just “keyboard warrior” talk and that this is truly the way people portray themselves out in the wild.

    -End Rant
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on [[Official]] General Discussion of the Official Multiplayer Banlist
    Quote from illakunsaa »
    Quote from cryogen »
    Quote from Impossible »
    I think you misunderstood the reference. It's part of a larger quote: "guns don't kill people, people kill people." It has nothing to do with murder or other criminal punishments, it's a pro-gun argument. The implication here is that gun control is mostly meaningless because a bad actor will simply find another way to commit their crime while responsible gun owners are unfairly punished by having their guns taken away.

    Laying aside the real world politics (in which this is a flawed and terrible idea) it translates pretty well to EDH. We all know that the ban list is kind of a joke from a competitive point of view. The RC has admitted as much and said they don't particularly care about that aspect. But if you're already letting people run around with Stasis and Doomsday, is there really any reason to keep something like Balance on the list? If people want to ruin games, they're going to ruin games. I guess the EDH corollary would be "cards don't ruin games, people ruin games". There is some merit in the idea of just straight up removing the ban list and trusting people to play in a social way. Isn't that the entire point of the format in the first place?

    I'm quite familiar with the saying, and it's a ridiculous argument that tries to take a complicated debate and package it into a simple catchphrase. But I'm also for stricter gun control, so there's that.

    Since we don't need to have a debate on gun control I'll skip a lousy analogy that would get nitpicked. Instead, I'll just say that the idea of the ban list is to remove the cards which go against the RC's philosophy document, as well as the cards which run afoul of the target demographic (which isn't to say that people not of that demographic are being excluded, simply that the ban list is not being maintained with them in mind). So no, I xont think there is merit to the notion that since people are already ruining games by not engaging in social behaviour which will enable better games, removing the ban list will somehow encourage that social behaviour. I think it will just exaggerate the problem even more and cause people to quit the format or retreat from public games altogether.


    I think people leaving the format is actually a positive thing.


    Let me stop you right there. Don’t care about the repercussions, but this is the stupidest thing I have ever read on this forum, and that is truly saying something. Somebody with that mindset doesn’t deserve to have enjoyable play experiences and is the furthest thing from a “target audience”. If that’s the way you feel, maybe take your own advice and hit the bricks.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on [[Official]] General Discussion of the Official Multiplayer Banlist
    Yeah, picking forum users doesn't really seem like that great of an idea. I haven't heard of any of the people who got picked, but I'm sure more people know about them than they would know about our VSFP.

    If anything I have a bit of trouble with the phrase
    Quote from Sheldon »
    it’s important for the Rules Committee to hear from a broader range of voices who share our vision of Commander and can contribute new and novel methods of implementing that vision."
    since it comes off a bit echo-chambery and I feel like it would be more beneficial to have contrasting opinions.. but again, I don't know anyone in that list so..


    While I agree that it could lead to a bit of an echo chamber, having a shared vision doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t have contrasting views on how to achieve vision. If anything, it will force the format upwards rather than outwards, if that makes sense. EDH has a very solid base, the goal here is to build upon it, not expand or alter the foundation.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on What SCG Con Taught Sheldon About Commander And Its Players
    Quote from cryogen »


    It is effectively "get good", but that's not a bad thing. While Commander isn't 100 card Vintage, and players shouldn't be expected to prepare for that as anything resembling a par for the Course commander match, the opposite is also true, and players needn't be expected to have options for the players who resist at all costs any efforts to build functional decks. I have a friend who comes at me with 100 card draft pool leftovers, and it's only right that our match results reflect that.

    This. There needs to be some level of onus on players to build decks which can interact with the other players at the table, but at the same time the format shouldn't be one where my deck has to sacrifice its flavor and theme because I need to run 30 pieces of removal/counters to stop three other players trying to combo out.


    For me, I have problems with cards that force you to run specific types of removal/answers. This format is multi-player, so naturally you are looking at a removal suite to suit that. They aren’t great when 1-for-1’s, but they are superbly efficient when knocking multiple pieces off the board. Now, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t pack some single target answers, it’s just you usually consider those when shoring up deck weaknesses, or when meta gaming. Which is why I can’t stand Iona. If you don’t have that specific answer, you’re going to have a bad time. Or worse, you have that answer but it’s locked. Fast mana can fall into this category as well, but that’s just because by the time you answer it, that player has already gained a significant advantage over what resources you spent to get rid of it.

    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] General Discussion of the Official Multiplayer Banlist
    Quote from Taleran »
    I think you guys are making gigantic leaps to make Iona not just be that bold thing.

    Also referencing the Iona thread and how long it is weird considering how circular that thread is all the time (as someone who contributed to those circles)

    I agree also that this forum is such a miniscule sliver of the audience because it is the only place I evet hear anyone talk about Iona.


    That thread wasn’t circular at all. It was a very small group of people, yourself included, applying the same reasoning you did here for why she shouldn’t be banned. I just find it odd that you continually dismiss ones anecdotal evidence with your own, like somehow your experiences hold more weight than others.

    As for the bold bit, well, that would put you incredibly out of touch with reality. Reddit, numerous podcasts and YouTube videos, other blogs. Hell, it even came up in “ask the RC” Q&A, which if I’m not mistaken, brought us back to this discussion in the first place. I just find that to be an ignorant and self serving statement.

    More proof? How about the dream banlist poll? Iona is routinely right there with fast mana, going back as far as 2015. So, your opinion that a “small group of loud people” are the reason we talk about Iona is incorrect.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on [[Official]] General Discussion of the Official Multiplayer Banlist
    Quote from Pokken »
    You keep throwing around words like logical outcome as if this stuff can easily be reduced to ones and zeroes.

    You're oversimplifying and making questionable comparisons. And neglecting the whole for a narrow comment.

    People do not play edh as if they were all game theory experts. It's rarely as simple as a couple of options.

    Anyway I don't really expect or care to convince you as I'm not really sure myself if the should be banned - I take issue mostly with how you're arguing it.

    Making comparisons like void winnower or new kozilek just confuses me. The mechanism is nothing like iona at all.

    No one here is arguing for a ban on any card that could ever be annoying to play against. Its the specifics of iona and how her mechanics differ that people dislike.


    Agreed. Over 9000 agree. I agree with everything else as well.

    I think people need to remember that while we are here “discussing” how one card affects the format and it’s worthy-ness if you will of being either banned, or unbanned, we are just an insignificant fraction of the overall playerbase of EDH. However, one could argue that the most talked about cards deserve the most attention, so, the Iona, Shield of Emeria thread is currently 19 pages long. Currently, a Void Winnower thread has yet to be created. How could this be? A card that is infinitely easier to “be annoying” with(Colorless cost, arguably a more playable tribe, affects the board as well), yet nobody is talking about it. Personally, I find Iona more annoying because all too often somebody is just “collateral damage”, much like Sunder Titan. Mono-U player getting ready to combo, or just has otherwise countered everything, so reanimate Iona to shut things down. Oh, but your Tibor and Lumia flying-tribal deck? Yeah, sorry, not today. Oh, you’re only way to interact with Iona is also U? Well, you better hope another player wants to help out.

    She just really punishes you in the deckbuilding phase.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Random Card of the Day: Radiant Fountain
    I once killed a very cocky Oloro player with this bad boy. He had sunk a ton of life into Necropotence leaving him around 18 life. He had just the turn before reset the board with Austere Command leaving this bad boy as the only other permanent on the field. I had 2 card in hand, a Forest and Rampant Growth. So he tapped out for something(don’t recall, didn’t care), and then I top decked Explosive Vegitation, tapped out and rocked his world with 20/20 Baloth. Then I died a few turns later because I couldn’t draw another threat to save my life. I was happy tho.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Random Card of the Day: Radiant Fountain
    Quote from cyberium_neo »
    Even if it's not attacking you get to extort, so a very versatile creature.


    But that’s still on a 6 mana creature. Lifelink, death touch, anything else to make “just extorting” a reasonable fall back. Don’t get me wrong, extort can be stupid strong, but that’s not why you play this card imo.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Random Card of the Day: Radiant Fountain
    I wish this got the Pontiff of Blight treatment. Good effect, on a bad body(or weak body), with a fat butt. I’m not trying to win combat, just survive it to achieve the effect. Then, at worst, you’re left with big booty bleeder. At 6cmc, this should have been better, and more so with the multi-color cost.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Random Card of the Day: Radiant Fountain
    A group I play in from time to time has “creature tribal” nights(35+ creatures in your deck, creature damage only for the win). It gives a ton of cards new life, and Jareth was one of them my first night there. Valor made real, that card swung the game right around.

    Anyways, yes, in Standard EDH he is just underpowered. But, the beauty of the format is with enough like minded people, you can play with anything.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] General Discussion of the Official Multiplayer Banlist
    Quote from JWK »
    Today I was in a three-player game. One guy had a really good opening hand in about as tuned a mono-white deck as I've ever seen, with turn 1-2 Sol Ring, Mana Vault and Mana Crypt. By turn 7 he had out Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Lyra Dawnbringer, Exquisite Archangel and Felidar Sovereign and was at 60+ life and ready to win on his next upkeep. I drew into Cyclonic Rift, putting his board and that of the other opponent back into hand and hit him with my modest board state (mostly a bunch of thopter tokens and a couple of other small creatures. I let him recast the Crypt but Negated the Sol Ring, which slowed him down enough in recasting his whole board that me and the other guy were able to get back into the game. I prefer to cast Rift in a situation which will give me a win, but in this case it not only prevented a loss but also made for a much better game.


    Yeah, agreed. Personally, I prefer cards like these to be played defensively and prevent the loss rather than setting up a win. But, if it is in fact a swift ending, we can shuffle up for another game.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Cards Most Needing a C19 Reprint
    Quote from Melkor »
    I would really love to see Zendikar fetches. 3-4 color decks, with all of the on color Zen fetches. Players who have them can trade them for staples, it gives new players something they can trade to finish a deck, it brings the blasted prices down. It gives some better fixing. I just think that there are very few cards with higher actual demand, and very little that would check more boxes for what a reprint should do.


    Fetches are only as good as the lands they can grab. If you are suggesting they also include fetchable duals, well, I have bad news for you.

    As JWK stated, including cross-format staples, specifically lands, would just drive up the price and make these next to impossible to acquire for the target audience.

    As much as I love reprints, I prefer new unique cards. Or, new takes on old classics. Easiest way to drive down prices of “staples” is to print viable alternatives. Massacure Wurm is actually one of my favorite cards, and would welcome a reprint.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Biogenic Ooze
    Ugh, we definetly need a Jund or Temur legendary ooze. Maybe something that removes counters or something. I dislike anthem-type legendaries, too linear.

    Cards pretty cool though. 6/6 across two bodies at EOT for 5? Very solid indeed.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Incubation Druid
    What I also find interesting is that you can you it to pay for its own Adapt cost. Maybe something will pop up where you give this a counter, tap for 3, remove said counter just to adapt again. Seems wayyyyy too cute, but who doesn’t like cute things?

    Actually, it pays its own cost if it has a counter and you control Biomancers Familiar. Pretty neat.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Incubation Druid
    Quote from pierrebai »
    Holy cripes, the counter can come from anywhere! That's some mana acceleration. Turn 2 druid, turn 3 land, something something something that puts a +1/+1 counter, you got 5 mana.


    Llanowar Reborn
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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