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Mar 15, 2019Posted in: Commander (EDH)Quote from tstorm823 »Leave // Chance
I started playing this card as an interesting Barren Glory enabler, but it's actually really good. Dodge removal, dodge board wipes, rebuy etbs, generate storm, card selection on the backside, and if you're really desperate you float mana and go digging 30 deep for what you need.
This being able to bounce any permanent is insane value. Reset curses? Charge counters? I love the Barren Glory interaction. Been working on a wonky Boros alt win deck, that’s one I missed.
Mar 11, 2019Ah, probably one of my most optimized decks I’ve ever built. Absolutely right on the ultimate, late game finisher and that’s about it. It’s the first 2 abilities, though, that really power her along. Landing a turn-1 Exploration or Burgeoning with at least 3 lands is an extremely explosive opening, and what’s more, if she gets removed, you can play and flip her the following turn. I like her better than Azusa, Lost but Seeking because of the tacked on CA.Posted in: Commander (EDH)
Great card, both at the helm and in the 99.
Mar 10, 2019Posted in: Commander (EDH)TBH, this card strikes me as a bit winmoar.
It hits all opponents, so even you have enough of a creature swarm to eliminate one player, this give you the added reach of potentially eliminating the rest of the table. It also breaks through board stalls due to Pillow Fort decks and the like. I’d label it niche-tech rather than winmoar I guess.
Mar 9, 2019Posted in: Commander (EDH)
How can it not be This Guy though???
That’s at least the first one that popped into my mind. Granted, you’d have to work around the mandatory sac., but I think they both will get the job done. Love these types of interactions.
Mar 7, 2019Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion ForumQuote from Hermes_ »With the dragon percon,CV would give me another win and with the cards included, I honestly wouldn't need to play my general.....
This is also a valid point. It’s very easy to just point to the elephant in the Command Zone and say, “See, it’s right there”. I hate the “well, I’ll just answer the threat” counter points. They are lazy and nonsensical. Over the course of the game, you are not going to have a way to deal with everything. Sometimes you have to leave it up to opposing players, or sometimes accept that you are just going to have to weather the storm and see where it leads. I mean, you’re talking about an 8-mana sorcery and an 11-mana sorcery. Beyond the layers of protections the casters can employ to ensure they go off, even if they have “shields down” do you have the means to deal with them? At that stage of the game? I mean, I’ve sat at tables where Deadeye Navigator, Prophet of Kruphix, Skittlea have all been in play. How do you have a full grip of cards to even choose from? How are you answering all of those threats and then able to answer more. It’s impossible.
Mar 7, 2019Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion ForumQuote from Impossible »
No thanks. I don't feel like hitting my head against a brick wall of stupidity for another 15 pages. I think I lost enough brain cells the last time. Case-in-point, there are at least two people here that either think Stasis is an interactive card:Quote from cryogen »Then please enlighten me.
...or who simply don't know how to read:
So hard pass on the "trying to enlighten you" plan. I'd rather try to explain game theory to a dog. At least that one has a chance of succeeding.Quote from Onering »I've seen some terrible comparisons, but bringing stasis into this and claiming its a non interactive auto win is just wow.
The why the F*** are you even here? You clearly enjoy banging your head against the wall, which would actually explain a lot with the crap you post.
One line “zingers” don’t exactly further any sort of relevant discussion. So combine your ramblings with a guy whose stance is “I’m not advocating one way or the other for the card to be banned, and I don’t agree with the RC, but this is why I don’t think CV needs to be banned” and your left with what we have here.
Honestly, the thread should just be locked and do away with the discussion all together. The points were brought up in 2017, 2018, and 2019. Nothing has changed in the format. It’s the same people on the same sides of their respective fences.
Mar 6, 2019Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion ForumWhile I get that the card is a feelbad at a casual level, I think it's ultimately a pretty safe card for 75%+ metas assuming the players are competent. The spell should generally not be able to go off, and if it can, the winner probably could have won with a number of different cards. Casual does matter though - as I said, I don't want (or at least care about) it being unbanned. But I think people overestimate how good and unanswerable it is, in a non-cEDH, 75%-ish setting.
Not to travel down the Worship path again, I don’t see how this is even relevant here. Acknowledging that this isn’t “safe” for casual tables ends the discussion, and especially consideirng you added qualifiers to make it “safe” for 75%. If anything, these are the types of comments that skew the focus, because you are not adhering to the criteria set forth by the RC.
At least from how I see the game, I think there are much more "deflating" cards that win the game with fewer avenues to respond. ETI is a good example - sure, labman can be killed, but let's be real that isn't happening if ETI resolved because there's now like 20 counterspells in the controller's hand, and the ETI itself can only be answered by a counterspell. For me, if I controlled the banlist, I'd rather those cards were banned before I'd give a crap about CV. But I'd be fine with both being banned - I just don't really care about CV at all.
And what stops the owner of CV packing their own set of protections? And there are other ways to disrupt EtI besides counter spells. Specificlly the most recent RCotD, Uba Mask, or at the very least creates a win now or lose scenario. Which is also another point, EtI either wins or loses, wether that’s a point in favor of or not is debateable, but that certainly isn’t how CV works.
To me, I usually see EtI as a working mans win. Sure, you’ve played the draw-go game all along, picked a good spot to “go off”, but there are a lot of scenarios that take place earlier in the game that can hinder, or flat out stop EtI, not many which create crummy games for any one player. For CV, you’re talking Kill on Sight Commander and LD. While a EtI win is deflating, having to wade through all the hate just because you could CV for the win is pretty bad as well. This is strictly a matter of opinion and play styles, so to each their own, just the way I see it on the reg.
-I think using "interacts badly with the format" as the sole justification is an oversimplification for why the card is banned, because the actual reason it's banned is difficult to articulate without bringing into question other cards (like expropriate and ETI) and the actual interaction it has with the rules of the format is substantive but not enormously so (nowhere near LR or felidar, for example). For that matter, I think "only wins the game" is also a bad justification, since there are plenty of other cards that do that too - besides ETI and DD that only implicitly win the game, lab man and all the other alt-wincons explicitly do the same thing (well, I guess lab man also attacks and blocks. Grey ogre ftw!), even if they are usually easier to interact with (but that's not listed as a criteria...I don't think? I hate reading, someone else tell me that I screwed up if it's in there). Do I think other cards could be banned on the same criteria? Probably. I'd rather those cards were also banned, than that CV was unbanned, though. But out of the dumb, easymode win-the-game cards I think CV is one that I, personally, find among the least concerning because it's among the easiest to interact with.
It may be simple, but it should really only require that explanation. Not to go on to much of a tangent, but what are some of the most powerful EDH generals? Ones that tutor. You are always +1 CA with a card like that in the command zone, and you’ve built a deck around them so you have an answer for most any situation. To a lesser extent, that is what a 5c general is to CV. You always have access to that one piece needed to seal the game.
Mar 6, 2019Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion ForumQuote from Onering »Enter the Infinite I think is a relevant comparison. It really does just win without any setup, and is a close to printing "you win" as you conceivably get without actually printing "you win." Doomsday is a bit different. Without even getting into the fact that Doomsday is a particularly skill intensive card compared to other potential game enders, Doomsday requires a significant amount of deckbuilding considerations AND a fair amount of setup to ensure it actually does win. Its a super tutor for 5 cards that also searches your graveyard, but it tutors them all to the top of your library at sorcery speed. It requires a way to actually draw those cards immediately to be a "cast this and win" card.
The thing with cards like Doomsday is they generally will not be played until they can win you the game, so it might seem like that's all they do, but they can certainly be played without winning you the game, which is something CV simply doesn't do. Doomsday can, in desperation, be played as a tutor. T&N can be played as a big dumb spell that grabs big dumb creatures, following "build casually play competitively" you can build your deck to ensure that's all it does. Primal Surge is either a "play and win" card with significant deck building restrictions, or a big dumb spell that's little different than other big dumb spells in a normal deck. The RC has said on several occasions that these alternative "fair" uses matter when deciding whether to ban or unban a card. The chance of a spell being problematic to casual play is another big factor, which is much more likely for something splashy and straightforward like CV or Worldfire than something techy, subtle, and skill intensive like Doomsday. Also important is the ability of a card to accidentally ruin games. Nobody has ever put Doomsday in a deck and accidentally hit a combo. CV otoh is a card that bleeds flavor and seems really cool, and seems to a casual player like an obvious inclusion in a 5 color deck, then it actually gets played and sucks the life out of the room. Worldfire as well is a flavorful, evocative, splashy effect that Timmy would be drawn to, and then they cast it in game and suddenly its frowns all around.
Just to take this
a step further, you have to consider the pieces that actually win you the game as well.The thing with cards like Doomsday is they generally will not be played until they can win you the game,
You are just as much “sandbagging” the winning pieces as you are the super tutors(Doomsday, EtI, etc.). For the sake of simplicity, the most common “iWin” with Enter the Infinite involves LabMan. You certainly are not playing LabMan into an unfavorable situation unless you are winning with it, and the same goes for EtI. Having to really pick your spots to utilize these cards significantly impacts the way they are compared to CV. Having continuous access to one of your CV conditions, and the other being laughably easy to achieve, puts it much further ahead of cards like I’ve mentioned, or T&N etc.
Mar 6, 2019This should be a new holiday “Resurection of the CV thread”. I demand we get the day off for this. Like clockwork, I swear.Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
Seriously, not a dang thing has changed in the game that has made this discussion any different than the other 10 times it’s been brought up.
Like for real, I’m a gosh dang prophet I tell you-
Honestly, the Mods should just lock this thread. My point has been proven by 3 separate individuals since this thread was ressurected. Or should we just argue the same points for another 9 pages, have it die for a year, and then revisit? Again.
Just missing Impossible and their insane theory crafting to really make this a party.
And I was not disappointed!
Mar 4, 2019Posted in: Commander (EDH)Every time you respond, I keep saying "I AGREE that the emblem, disregarding the context, is better than the enchantment..." and then add what I would consider to be more relevant card analysis. And every time you keep ignoring me. I'm genuinely confused at this point. If all you want to say is "the emblem is better than the enchantment" then great, we're in agreement. Why do you keep bringing it up? Why do you care what my opinion of Serra is if you don't care about Serra?
Yeah, no. That is not at all how you’ve responded. It’s a backhanded acknowledgment of my point, which is something I don’t really believe is necessary. You are attempting to quash my initial statement with overall card analysis, which wasn’t part of my original point to begin with. The initial statement I replied to had to do with how much Worship effects see play. Having a version of that effect that cannot be removed significantly alters the viability of that effect. I even followed it up acknowledging that this doesn’t necisarily alter the overall playability of the effect. Yet, 3 replies later it’s stil “well, see, Serra has to survive and blah, blah, blah”. Agreeing isn’t “Yeah, but...”.
Anyways, I’m done with this topic. It’s not a discussion at all, so there is no need to continue. I’ve said my piece, feel however you want about it, I don’t care.
Mar 4, 2019Posted in: Commander (EDH)
Sure, but I did agree to that twice (and then went on to elucidate a deeper analysis of how the card actually plays and how that compares to worship, which, if comparing the emblem to the enchantment was all he wanted to say, doesn't contradict him).Quote from FearDReaper »I could be misunderstanding but I don't think Buffsam89 was saying Serea PW is always better than worship. I think he is saying that once the emblem is in play, the emblem is strictly better.
The original point of contention was this:
Which...I mean, I guess on a strictly literal level all he's saying is that HE would play this over worship when he wants worship which (except for the impossible fraction) isn't really disprovable, but the implication that serra is a better source of the effect is, at a minimum, very debatable.
Maybe I'm off my nut, but the conversation reads like this to me:
him: serra is better than worship!
me: well, not necessarily
him: but the emblem is strictly better!
me: ok yes, but that doesn't make serra better
him: but the emblem is strictly better!
me: ok...yes...but that doesn't make serra better....
I think the point you’re missing is that I don’t care about Serra. You keep dragging that back in as if it’s relevant.
My point: I want Worship effect, I want the emblem.
Your point: Well you see, Serra isn’t very good, Serra won’t survive anyways, Serra this, Serra that.
My point: Again, if I want a Worship effect, I want a source that can’t be interacted with, which is what the emblem is.
Your point: Hurr Durr, Serra is bad. Serra is prone to removal, Serra, Serra, Serra....
You may be a smart guy, MtG encyclopedia or whatever else you want to pump your tires with, but, you’re being incredibly obtuse and straight up ignorant here.
And talk about Rage, I made the same point across 3 separate comments. You failed, miserably, each time at grasping my point and just wasted precious keystrokes trying to explain something that wasn’t relevant, or anything I really cared about. Yet, here you are, 48 hours later still banging the same drum. I guess you don’t have anything else better to do, and you’ve let this linger with you for 2 full days. So again, who’s raging here?
One last time with feeling-
I.Dont.Care.About.Serra. Good, bad, whatever. She’s irrelevant to this particular conversation.
Mar 2, 2019Posted in: Commander (EDH)
Obviously, given the choice of a 4 mana card that gives you the emblem immediately, or the card worship, the emblem (barring enchantress triggers) is better, but that's not what we have to work with so it's not exactly relevant.
Besides the (major) risk that she'll just get killed before ulting, the delay is absolutely critical. You're hypothesizing a situation where you have her out on 3, which obviously won't always be the case, and in games where you need the worship effect means it's very possible you'll never have a good window to turn her into worship if you draw her later in the game. But fine, have it your way - she's out turn 3, no one has creatures for some reason, and BAM, we ult on turn 4. Sweet.
Now, the entire game, everyone knows you have that emblem. Which means they're much more likely to direct commander damage, infect, mill, and anything else that kills you without normal damage, because they know that emblem could be a problem. They'll save a life-loss spell to push you over the edge, or a board wipe to clear out your creatures before a final push. Whereas if you waited until you're down to 10 and then slam worship, they might have already burned their life-loss, attacked someone else for commander damage, etc. Hell, if they don't have a way to kill you, they might avoid killing another player so that player can help deal the final blow instead. The earlier you get the emblem, the easier it is to play around, and because of the difficulty in getting your planeswalker to ult you're obliged to get the emblem whenever you can, rather than at the most strategically valuable time.
Holy F*** dude, I’m not trying to quantify anything, it’s a god damn opinion based on my play experiences with the people I play with.
I don’t give a s*** about when it comes down, or what happens, or whatever BS you’re trying to sell. I specifically stated that of the two sources that grant the Worship ability, the emblem is better, that’s it. I’m not proclaiming this to be a viable strategy, a meta breaking card, or whatever else that would warrant this type of discussion. A removable permanent vs. a non-removable emblem. Strictly better, all day every day. Infinitely better.
Done, that’s it. Move on. I’m sure you have better things to do with your time. If not, play some MtG. Fack.
Mar 2, 2019Posted in: Commander (EDH)then I daresay worship is not something you needed anytime in the near future anyway.
Ok, after this one I’m done with my take on the card. You’re missing my point. The effect, that’s it, that’s all I’m talking about. If you’re looking for a source of that effect, you’ll ideally want Serra. Who cares if you don’t need it now, it’s the point that once you have it, you aren’t losing it.. You acknowledge that Worship isn’t relevant until it’s needed, so you aren’t playing it until then, because it will probably be removed, or played around. There is no removing the emblem. If I Ult. Serra on turn 4, I have Worship the remainder of the game. I don’t have to worry about timing, removal, etc. who cares if it’s irrelevant now, I know it’ll be relevant when I need it, though, and I’m not banking on some scenario to play out to get it into play and be relevant.
I don’t really see how it took 3 separate posts to get that through, but here we are. I don’t care about the PW aspect, or really anything else you’ve mentioned, strictly the Worship effect. It can’t be interacted with, so it is better than Worship.
Mar 2, 2019Posted in: Commander (EDH)
the emblem has 5 weaknesses and the enchantment has 6. I wouldn't call that infinite.
I'd say the much bigger weakness is that, barring doubling season or proliferate, you need her to survive a full turn around the table before you get the emblem. In which case you obviously don't need worship THAT badly.
Not exactly my point. Do we really have to deconstruct every single comment to “dies to Doomblade”? If you want the Worship effect, you want this emblem, not the enchantment. It’s not a point of contention, it’s a matter of fact. Emblems don’t get removed, so long as you can continue putting creatures on the field, you’ll always have the effect. Not true of the enchantment.
I don’t care if it “needs to make its way around the table”, that wasn’t my point. For instance, I will play this in Nahiri, the Lithomancer but not Worship. I never considered this type of effect for that deck, but the fact that for the same cost and an admittedly harder to remove permanent, I get the effect indefinitely, it’s worth a slot with added utility to boot.
Besides that, from my experience, low cost PW’s usually make it around the table of cast early enough. Stupid things like that don’t discourage me from playing a particular card, as it’s rarely relevant.
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