One more thing: you run almost no protection for Noyan while he is crucial to your deck. In my experience, one he is killed for the second time this deck is really struggling. Don't you have this problem? You do focus more on the combo, So maybe Awaken is your savior?
Oh yeah. About that... I run no protection for him because I mostly only get him out when I'm about to combo off. So I sit down behind my wall of enchantments and counterspells and wait for the opportunity to combo off. Most of the time, Noyan Dar is just sitting in the sidelines watching. A probable plan B would be to add Talrand, Sky Summoner in the deck. He's a removal magnet same as Noyan Dar and he just gives out advantage when he's out in the field.
I used to have Altar of Dementia when I first played the deck. However, it becomes a rather parasitic card without the gigantic griffin so I took it out. I don't know about Orrery though. It's advantageous for the deck but I don't run things like Land Tax or Tithe to take advantage of it. Besides, we rarely get to have an empty hand with all the card draw the deck has. I think the potential to backfire outweighs its benefits.
The deck's really not for the competitive scene. Just seeing people's faces marvel at the combo and how janky it is. It's one of the few "infinite" combos that are not frowned upon by people.
You can save some cards by simply running Xenograft; it can make all your creatures griffin.
But there is no way to fetch it with the other cards in the deck. That is why I'm not using Xenograft. I did cut a lot of the "changeling" cards down to 3 just to make sure I don't have a lot of them at any given time.
I would like to include Mirror Entity once more and maybe include Talrand just for the synergy. That could be a potent plan B in case Noyan Dar is put out of commission.
I can see how those would help me get rid of problematic commanders. Now the question is what to replace? Do I shed some layers of protection off the few I have to accommodate these? Or do I go and replace some card draw with these? I'm quite clueless when it comes to these kinds of choices. Lol
One thing I have in mind that's ripe for replacement is Whir of Invention. I have never used it for its intended purpose (tutor up Expedition Map).
Thanks! I'm glad you like the list. The combo idea is not originally mine (I've seen it floating around) but nobody bothered to build a deck around it. So here it is.
As to Hour of Revelation, I'd actually like to slot that in. I don't know whether I should add it as a 6th board wipe or just replace Planar Cleansing with it. Anyhow, I'll get a foil as soon as I can. I love the deck so I'm trying to foil it out.
A card I'm very much interested in is Commit // Memory. I know it's quite expensive mana-wise but it's a versatile spell that has a variety of uses. No idea what I should take out from the deck though. I love playing it as-is for now.
Did a lot of changes from last month's version. Took it out for a spin and was still having a lot of fun. The infinite combo is quite easy to assemble.
In all seriousness though, what are the options for a BW deck w/o Gideon? I did the mistake of trading out all my Gideons when I decided to quit standard a year ago and now don't have any. I find it quite difficult to deal with Marvel decks w/o Gideon. Any advice?
Transgress + Unmaking
Unfortunately, I find both to be inadequate against Marvel. That much I know. While Unmaking is a nice card, it doesn't help a lot when the opponents pack at least 4 board wipes just for the off chance of going against zombies (and I'm the only zombie player in our meta ).
...
On the other hand, I think I'll be switching to mono-B for now. Unfortunately, I only have 2 Relentless Dead so I guess the other 2 can be Heart of Kiran just for giggles. The only games I won against Marvel were going all-out aggro w/ Mimic, Lord, and Mastery. The problem with going all-out aggro in the BW build is that you might stumble on your mana and that is a situation you don't want. My local meta has a bunch of Marvel decks, as well as some UR control with Mardu sprinkles. I feel like I need the speed more.
In all seriousness though, what are the options for a BW deck w/o Gideon? I did the mistake of trading out all my Gideons when I decided to quit standard a year ago and now don't have any. I find it quite difficult to deal with Marvel decks w/o Gideon. Any advice?
My local meta is very hostile against zombies at the moment. Within the past week, I have seen more and more people switching from Mardu to either Temur Aetherworks or UR Control (a few people go UR control since it's good against Aetherworks decks in general). The Aetherworks decks in general have been modified such that there are at least 2 Sweltering Suns and at least 1 Chandra, Flamecaller main. Those, with 3 Ulamogs make life (or un-life) quite difficult for zombies. Harnessed Lightning is always saved for our Colossus. And their billions of thopters are just plain annoying. I found out the hard way that Dispossess is not the card I am looking for against marvel decks. I'd pretty much prefer Authority of the Consuls since it helps to stop their Ulamog blocks and/or spin-into-virtuoso-then-make-a-lotta-thopters-blocks. Even if you remove their Marvel, Woodweaver's Puzzleknot together with Nissa's Renewal just makes it real difficult to kill them fast and they almost always make it to the late game.
Question: Is there an advantage of playing BW against aetherworks decks aside from Gideon? I feel that Gideon is essential for that match-up. Remove Gids and the chance of winning is roughly the same as mono-B.
Back on the subject of the bw list. Why don't you run metallic mimic? Basically the creatures could be the same 24 for both decks jest swap relentless dead for wayward servant. Adding to your white requirement while also increasing vulnerability to sweepers seems worse. It is less vulnerable to ballista but we're seeing less and less of those. One of the best plays vs decks relying on sweltering/flames/chandra to sweep is t2 mimic t3 lord of the acursed as a 3/4.chandra can still whipe you but she has to die to do it.
I'm running mimics instead of the binding mummies and they have given me some wins game 1 against marvel decks. It's explosiveness is somewhere in between mono-B and the usual BW list, though you might have to rely on your lord more to provide you with some "evasion".
A funny thing we did during our for-fun playtests here is that we replaced the 2 Anguished Unmaking main with 2 Heart of Kiran. To our surprise, it actually works quite well, though you have to move the unmakings to SB. There are times when we just don't want to swing for a bad trade and don't have anything to do with our zombies (e.g. Cryptbreaker, Metallic Mimic, small Diregraf Colossus). It is in these times where we felt Heart has been able to pull us through. I don't know how good/bad it is in the long term though. It might ultimately prove to be bad but I feel it warrants more testing.
I did terrible today. Going 2-2. Won against GR and a UW aetherflux deck but lost to Mardu and UW Control. The Mardu player was the one I've been playtesting with for a couple weeks now. Fun games and all 3 matches were really close, with both of us on topdeck mode. Cut // Ribbons did me in. The UW control deck was annoying as hell. T2 Horribly Awry/Essence Scatter, T3 Disallow, T4 Engulf the Shore, T5 Fumigate, and Torrential Gearhulk. I didn't know what to do. It felt terrible through and through. Though I beat him 1 game when I was able to curve out perfectly.
There were 5 marvel decks in our LGS today though. I watched how the games play out and to my surprise the deck whiffs quite often, with some players hitting Ulamog or Chandra on the 3rd activation. I noticed that their match losses were because the opponent was just gunning them down real fast.
For tomorrow, I plan on making the deck faster with the zombies getting large real fast. Maybe something like this.
Game 1 is to go and try to make the zombies larger real fast. Dec in Stone is for the thopters from marvel and zombies in the mirror. Relentless Dead is in the SB against damage-based decks (e.g. red). Sideboard is still a mess though.
I went 3-1 in tonight's FNM. Won against Mardu Vehicles, Temur Energy and BG Delirium. Did quite bad against UR Control. Dude came prepared for zombies. He had 3 Sweltering Suns in the main. Dancing around Censor and Essence Scatter slowed the deck down by a turn at least. It was awkward playing against the deck. Magma Spray and Harnessed Lightning just gets rid of your zombies and slows you down further. All 3 games were too close to call though. Anyone played extensively against the deck?
My BW deck is currently 13-2 in paper. Not too bad I'd say.
running SB Scroungers? Gideon? Or are you mono black?
I'm on the BW version of the deck, though slightly different from the PT list. I run SB Scroungers but no Gideon because I don't have them.
I remember putting that together back when I was in high school. So...12 years ago. Yikes. I'm old.
I'd vote Noyan Dar, although I think both are pretty unexciting.
The combo is not originally mine. But it's an obscure janky combo and I just happen to love jank. So I decided to make it the centerpiece of the deck. lol
Yep. I originally had imagecrafter, mirror entity, and more. However, including a lot of those cards is not something you'd like doing. Once people see it, they'll just get rid of it right away. So 3 cards to change the creature type to griffin with all the tutors in the deck works quite fine. Artificial evolution sounds awesome though.
I went 3-1 in tonight's FNM. Won against Mardu Vehicles, Temur Energy and BG Delirium. Did quite bad against UR Control. Dude came prepared for zombies. He had 3 Sweltering Suns in the main. Dancing around Censor and Essence Scatter slowed the deck down by a turn at least. It was awkward playing against the deck. Magma Spray and Harnessed Lightning just gets rid of your zombies and slows you down further. All 3 games were too close to call though. Anyone played extensively against the deck?
My BW deck is currently 13-2 in paper. Not too bad I'd say.
I'm playing Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper and it has been a blast to play. It's my favorite commander deck, though you are not guaranteed to win every game. You can go combo route or just plain beatdown. My deck is majorly a spellslinger deck but not a control deck at heart. I let people draw cards while I protect myself with Propaganda-style effects while I'm drawing into my combo. The combo I'm talking about it the Griffin Canyon combo. Once it connects, you are guaranteed to eliminate an opponent once a turn. Another option for a build would be a go-wide strategy that utilizes a lot of basics and cards like Crucible of Worlds and Planar Birth. The good thing about Noyan is that most of your wraths could be a one-sided wrath (Planar Cleansing, Planar Outburst, Tragic Arrogance, etc.).
Oh yeah. About that... I run no protection for him because I mostly only get him out when I'm about to combo off. So I sit down behind my wall of enchantments and counterspells and wait for the opportunity to combo off. Most of the time, Noyan Dar is just sitting in the sidelines watching. A probable plan B would be to add Talrand, Sky Summoner in the deck. He's a removal magnet same as Noyan Dar and he just gives out advantage when he's out in the field.
I used to have Altar of Dementia when I first played the deck. However, it becomes a rather parasitic card without the gigantic griffin so I took it out. I don't know about Orrery though. It's advantageous for the deck but I don't run things like Land Tax or Tithe to take advantage of it. Besides, we rarely get to have an empty hand with all the card draw the deck has. I think the potential to backfire outweighs its benefits.
The deck's really not for the competitive scene. Just seeing people's faces marvel at the combo and how janky it is. It's one of the few "infinite" combos that are not frowned upon by people.
But there is no way to fetch it with the other cards in the deck. That is why I'm not using Xenograft. I did cut a lot of the "changeling" cards down to 3 just to make sure I don't have a lot of them at any given time.
I would like to include Mirror Entity once more and maybe include Talrand just for the synergy. That could be a potent plan B in case Noyan Dar is put out of commission.
One thing I have in mind that's ripe for replacement is Whir of Invention. I have never used it for its intended purpose (tutor up Expedition Map).
Just a side note, I would very much like to add Ghostly Prison in place of Detention Sphere.
Thanks! I'm glad you like the list. The combo idea is not originally mine (I've seen it floating around) but nobody bothered to build a deck around it. So here it is.
As to Hour of Revelation, I'd actually like to slot that in. I don't know whether I should add it as a 6th board wipe or just replace Planar Cleansing with it. Anyhow, I'll get a foil as soon as I can. I love the deck so I'm trying to foil it out.
A card I'm very much interested in is Commit // Memory. I know it's quite expensive mana-wise but it's a versatile spell that has a variety of uses. No idea what I should take out from the deck though. I love playing it as-is for now.
Did a lot of changes from last month's version. Took it out for a spin and was still having a lot of fun. The infinite combo is quite easy to assemble.
Unfortunately, I find both to be inadequate against Marvel. That much I know. While Unmaking is a nice card, it doesn't help a lot when the opponents pack at least 4 board wipes just for the off chance of going against zombies (and I'm the only zombie player in our meta ).
...
On the other hand, I think I'll be switching to mono-B for now. Unfortunately, I only have 2 Relentless Dead so I guess the other 2 can be Heart of Kiran just for giggles. The only games I won against Marvel were going all-out aggro w/ Mimic, Lord, and Mastery. The problem with going all-out aggro in the BW build is that you might stumble on your mana and that is a situation you don't want. My local meta has a bunch of Marvel decks, as well as some UR control with Mardu sprinkles. I feel like I need the speed more.
In all seriousness though, what are the options for a BW deck w/o Gideon? I did the mistake of trading out all my Gideons when I decided to quit standard a year ago and now don't have any. I find it quite difficult to deal with Marvel decks w/o Gideon. Any advice?
Question: Is there an advantage of playing BW against aetherworks decks aside from Gideon? I feel that Gideon is essential for that match-up. Remove Gids and the chance of winning is roughly the same as mono-B.
I'm running mimics instead of the binding mummies and they have given me some wins game 1 against marvel decks. It's explosiveness is somewhere in between mono-B and the usual BW list, though you might have to rely on your lord more to provide you with some "evasion".
A funny thing we did during our for-fun playtests here is that we replaced the 2 Anguished Unmaking main with 2 Heart of Kiran. To our surprise, it actually works quite well, though you have to move the unmakings to SB. There are times when we just don't want to swing for a bad trade and don't have anything to do with our zombies (e.g. Cryptbreaker, Metallic Mimic, small Diregraf Colossus). It is in these times where we felt Heart has been able to pull us through. I don't know how good/bad it is in the long term though. It might ultimately prove to be bad but I feel it warrants more testing.
There were 5 marvel decks in our LGS today though. I watched how the games play out and to my surprise the deck whiffs quite often, with some players hitting Ulamog or Chandra on the 3rd activation. I noticed that their match losses were because the opponent was just gunning them down real fast.
For tomorrow, I plan on making the deck faster with the zombies getting large real fast. Maybe something like this.
4x Cryptbreaker
4x Diregraf Colossus
4x Dread Wanderer
4x Lord of the Accursed
4x Metallic Mimic
4x Wayward Servant
Enchantment (3)
3x Liliana's Mastery
4x Concealed Courtyard
4x Plains
4x Shambling Vent
12x Swamp
Instant (6)
2x Fatal Push
4x Grasp of Darkness
Sorcery (3)
3x Dark Salvation
3x Anguished Unmaking
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Declaration in Stone
3x Dispossess
2x Scrapheap Scrounger
2x Relentless Dead
Game 1 is to go and try to make the zombies larger real fast. Dec in Stone is for the thopters from marvel and zombies in the mirror. Relentless Dead is in the SB against damage-based decks (e.g. red). Sideboard is still a mess though.
I'm on the BW version of the deck, though slightly different from the PT list. I run SB Scroungers but no Gideon because I don't have them.
The combo is not originally mine. But it's an obscure janky combo and I just happen to love jank. So I decided to make it the centerpiece of the deck. lol
Yep. I originally had imagecrafter, mirror entity, and more. However, including a lot of those cards is not something you'd like doing. Once people see it, they'll just get rid of it right away. So 3 cards to change the creature type to griffin with all the tutors in the deck works quite fine. Artificial evolution sounds awesome though.
My BW deck is currently 13-2 in paper. Not too bad I'd say.