To my mind, Palace Siege comes down at a time where you should be starting to play your dragons. There's lots better reanimation too. Animate Dead is far cheaper, straight to field, and if you really want to go that way you can go infinite with it and Worldgorger Dragon - infinite ETB triggers and mana, although that doesn't seem to have any really good use here. Still, there's that, Sheoldred, Whispering One, Nim Deathmantle, Volrath's Stronghold, Necromancy, Reanimate, lots and lots of options, and most of them are lots better than PS. I wouldn't necessarily pack every possible reanimation answer, I'd just pack one or two really good ones. Given the crazy plays you're looking at here, Living Death is a shoe in, otherwise I'd really only go for something cheaper CMC wise to cover early game disruption.
Time to dust off this deck and make some changes. Haven't played it in a while due to real-life reasons but now that the holidays are approaching, I sure as hell will play this deck again. Recently got myself a foil Glacial Fortress so it got me looking at this deck again.
Have to protect Noyan somehow... I also need more angles of attack to win games. Relying 100% on the Griffin combo is nice, but it makes the deck a lot more fragile than it needs to be.
Both have synergy with any dragon (big+draw+more is never bad, etc. ), and both have ridiculous synergy with the kamigawa dragons. Look up an old greater good yosei, the morning star deck from way back when...ow!
I agree about Greater Good. Don't know how I missed it!
Mirage Mirror could do crazy things here too, as could Strionic Resonator. Maybe not as nuts as 5 death triggers going off all at once, but repeatable nonetheless.
Recursion wise, I wouldn't worry about piling every option in. I'd go for Living Death because it's awesome, maybe Phyrexian Reclamation, Eternal Witness etc. Ideally you don't want your opponents getting free recursion too. Dragon wise, I like Bladewingthe Risensimply because you need do nothing more than resolve him. Teneb jumps through way too many hoops to get your creature back.
How many recursion stuff do you suggest? Will Palace Siege have a place in it? Or too slow?
@aleixarboix
Not really. You could try adding some number of Blood Crypt to try and compensate for the lack of Cliffs.
Or Sulfurous Springs if you're up for it. Sometimes it kills you though so I wouldn't go more than 3
Totally forgot about the pain lands. Good look!
Glad I helped!
I started deconstructing my BW tokens deck and is currently building this deck, though budget for it has been exhausted for now. I don't have the Blackcleave Cliffs myself so I'm running 2x Sulfurous Springs, 1x Godless Shrine and 1x Plains in its place for now. My list has more W than the usual Reveler list though.
If you want to keep the dragon legends. Mirror gallery is fun.
Lol this could be fun. However, the main reason I'm going for making multiple copies of the same dragon are the Kamigawan dragons, which have cool on-death triggers. And they actually die just having copies of themselves, so not having a sac outlet out isn't as crucial. I do think that having just the Kamigawan dragons in mind makes the strategy somewhat shaky but I do want it to be Plan A.
Well yea if you are only cloning your kamigawa dragons then mirror gallery is not important at all, However I would love to RoR a Silumgar, the Drifting Death (Meaning every dragon I swing with gives defending player's creatures -6/-6, Most creatures you will go against won;t get much bigger than 12/12 anyway. (And luckily it eliminates indestructible too)
But yea only if you plan on using RoR on anything rather than just 4 dragons (Because no one will play Jugen) Otherwise don''t bother with Mirror gallery.
But yeah I'm thinking that's the plan. RoR is going to be reserved for those 5 dragons
wat is the amount od damage if you use RoR on scourge, i count 36 (if valkas is your only dragon in play before RoR
Each copy of Scourge of Valkas will see each other copy of it as it enters the battlefield. The original dragon will see 5 dragons so its ability will trigger 5 times, as well as each of the 5 copies. That's going to be 5(triggers) * 6(different dragons whose abilities were triggered) * 6(damage, with 6 dragons in play) = 180. I think 180 damage is not something you can scoff at.
If you want to keep the dragon legends. Mirror gallery is fun.
Lol this could be fun. However, the main reason I'm going for making multiple copies of the same dragon are the Kamigawan dragons, which have cool on-death triggers. And they actually die just having copies of themselves, so not having a sac outlet out isn't as crucial. I do think that having just the Kamigawan dragons in mind makes the strategy somewhat shaky but I do want it to be Plan A.
Well yea if you are only cloning your kamigawa dragons then mirror gallery is not important at all, However I would love to RoR a Silumgar, the Drifting Death (Meaning every dragon I swing with gives defending player's creatures -6/-6, Most creatures you will go against won;t get much bigger than 12/12 anyway. (And luckily it eliminates indestructible too)
But yea only if you plan on using RoR on anything rather than just 4 dragons (Because no one will play Jugen) Otherwise don''t bother with Mirror gallery.
The copy route is indeed sad, with only a few amazing ones. However, I think we are not at a loss here. Instead of having lots of cards that can make copies, we can go for tutors that would help us get the combo going.
The black tutors would be better but where's the fun in that? These are the most budget-friendly tutors I can think of as well, with Dimir House Guard doubling as a sac outlet for when we want to get our dragons in the yard.
One other thing I think we need are sac outlets and a recursion suite. Here are what I had in mind:
How about we go with a make-copies-turn-after-turn plan rather than than the multiple-copies-a-turn? Since RoR is somewhat of a unique card, we can let RoR handle the multiple copies plan and shift the focus for token creation somewhere else. I think what the deck wants is some sort of clone-maker that can make clones turn after turn. The mimic is nice since it does that. I'm thinking Mimic Vat does too. I really want to like Flameshadow Conjuring but having it be usable only on entering the battlefield limits its uses.
If you want to keep the dragon legends. Mirror gallery is fun.
Lol this could be fun. However, the main reason I'm going for making multiple copies of the same dragon are the Kamigawan dragons, which have cool on-death triggers. And they actually die just having copies of themselves, so not having a sac outlet out isn't as crucial. I do think that having just the Kamigawan dragons in mind makes the strategy somewhat shaky but I do want it to be Plan A.
There's some great ideas here. Unfortunately, you're sort of stuck for RoR. The closest I can see is Clone Legion - which might actually be able to do a little bit of what you're wanting it to here. It'll get at least one Koko activation I guess. There's also Stolen Identity, I guess. They both kind of seem like the sort of cards you play when you're already in a favourable situation though, so not sure how well that works out for you.
If chaos is what you're after though, Mirrorwing Dragon could be a good time - can you imagine a kicked RoR on Mirrorwing with Koko, Keiga, Yosei, etc on the field. It would rain dragons.
Anyway, mimic-type effects I can see might be good. Progenitor Mimic targeting one of the Kamigawa dragons and then letting the original die to the Legend rule is a guaranteed grindy game. Targeting the likes of Utvara Hellkite is really good.
Here is my current list of dragons for your reference:
A quick look at Gatherer makes me sad since there is no other card that comes close enough to RoR. Because of this, do you think Eternal Witness and the like might have room in the deck?
I have a The Ur-Dragon commander deck but the deck doesn't seem to be a blast to play. I have been used to playing with Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper as my primary deck of choice for 2 years now so that could be one of the reasons I find the deck boring to play.
Now, I have been looking to make drastic changes to the deck and make it more fun. One thing I'm looking at is the interaction between Rite of Replication and Scourge of Valkas. We do know that thing kinda wins us games. However, I wonder if Rite of Replication can be used to a greater effect maybe with Kokusho, the Evening Star, Keiga, the Tide Star, and some other dragons we can think of. Having them legendary dragons die to the Legend rule seems like a fun way to play. With this, creating copies of the Kamigawan dragons would be real nice.
With the Kamigawa dragons, having them die is key so I'm thinking maybe we can craft a strategy that makes use of the graveyard. Having things that bring our dragons back helps. Twilight's Call could be nice here, as well as one-shot reanimation effects like Bladewing the Risen. Teneb, the Harvester could see a place in the deck as well.
To protect our dragons from exile-type removal, we will be needing to have a couple of sacrifice outlets. Since we are planning to use the graveyard as a resource, this could work out well for us. Instant speed, no mana sac outlets like Ashnod's Altar, Goblin Bombardment, High Market are actually quite good. A notable mention would be Evolutionary Leap to help us find more dragons.
What do you guys think of this? Is there a way to make it work? I'm in need of ideas that will help me form the backbone of this type of deck. I listed quite a few stuff so some ideas might eventually get cut off. It doesn't have to win a lot. What matters to me is that it's fun.
You're right Vindicate is not legal in modern. Forgot. So no not viable. Distress is a typo I meant Duress because I wanted to focus on non creatures, and avoid shaking oneself, but maybe you're right. I like the speed of Ghost quarters better (and less restrictions) but it might allow them fetch for a basic they needed. I need to go back to Square one on a Vindicate replacement. Thanks for setting me straight
Hey no problem. Glad to have helped. As to that, there is Anguished Unmaking though it doesn't hit lands. Duress is fine (I'm using them until I get more Thoughtseize) but I think a 3-3 split between inquisition and TS is a better disruption package.
I don't think the zombie deck is in a really good position right now. With the prevalence of URx control (Hour of Devastation) in the local meta, I decided to stop playing the deck altogether and move on to another. Granted these were just playtests so people were very much excited to play with new cards.
I'll still be coming to this thread to see if there are any developments though.
I'm just new to the Modern scene and built a deck based on what I can afford for now. I would have wanted to go the BW tokens route but I lacked some cards. I tested with some proxies at first but a friend donated some cards (Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix) to me. I thought it would be a waste not to use the donated cards so I started putting them in. Over time, I traded for some cards and came up with this deck.
It plays very much like BW tokens with some burn. This is a midrange deck that wins via tokens + anthems. The deck also has some elements of burn to kill off utility creatures and/or to close off players' life totals.
Anthem
3x Intangible Virtue - felt like 4 is too clunky, so went down to 3
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor - I like seeing him at least once every game and having 3 helps to achieve that. I once went down to 2 copies and found myself wanting the lifelink. Sorin + Virtue is brutal.
Disruption
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Collective Brutality - could have been Thoughtseize but got these and now trying them out. All modes useful in most games I played in. Would replace with the aforementioned card once I get hold of them.
I haven't had much experience with the deck albeit some extensive testing sessions against Grixis and Jund DS variants, in which the deck performs good. I have also played against some other decks in local tournaments but lost a lot due to not knowing the meta quite well and making dumb plays.
Here are the matches I had and how I'd rate them:
1. Grixis DS - Favorable. The presence of lots of removal in the deck line up well with the few threats the deck has.
2. Jund DS - Slightly Favorable. A more difficult match-up than Grixis DS but still winnable. The version I always test against has Grim Flayer which is somewhat problematic for the deck.
3. UR Gifts Storm - Fair. Game 1 is usually unfavorable unless we can make them discard key pieces and kill off cost reducers (Baral, Chief of Compliance, Goblin Electromancer). G2 they usually side in Empty the Warrens in anticipation of Leyline of Sanctity (due to the presence of white)
4. Mono U Tron - Bad. The deck currently has around 30% win rate against this version of Tron.
5. Eldrazi Tron - Bad. Lots of early threats that make most of the deck's removal useless. There's around 3 or 4 players who use this deck in my local meta. Not quite sure if dedicating a lot of SB slots for this match-up will help.
6. Abzan CoCo Toolbox - Fair. Tokens + Anthem is a real pain for them. Plus the slew of removal in the deck makes life difficult for them.
7. Vizier CoCo Combo - Good. Similar to the toolbox version but more dedicated to a combo win. They have a worse plan B though so keeping the viziers off the table works fine.
8. Traditional Jund - Favorable. Easier to deal with than the DS version. And Liliana of the Veil is never a problem for the deck.
Notes
The deck has undergone multiple iterations before it settled down to this one. Previous versions had Young Pyromancer and Monastery Mentor. Those cards are good and could take over the game if left unchecked. However, they are terrible topdecks. With the prevalence of sorcery-speed spells inherent for any token build, it is clear that this is not the shell for those 2 cards. A Jeskai build is a lot better for those.
I know I still have to play a lot with the deck to know if it's any good or not. Comments and ideas are greatly appreciated.
P.S.: Highest level of play I'm planning for the deck currently is just at FNM. So it doesn't need to be very cutthroat.
I see. Thanks! Wouldn't want to go Worldgorger Dragon + Animate Dead. I'll have a couple cards in for recursion.
I guess going for a lot of recursion stuff would somehow dilute the clone strategy.
Some interesting cards:
Have to protect Noyan somehow... I also need more angles of attack to win games. Relying 100% on the Griffin combo is nice, but it makes the deck a lot more fragile than it needs to be.
I agree about Greater Good. Don't know how I missed it!
Blade of Selves is awesome too!
Now the only problem is I currently don't have the cash to sell out for them. Will have to wait then I guess.
How many recursion stuff do you suggest? Will Palace Siege have a place in it? Or too slow?
Glad I helped!
I started deconstructing my BW tokens deck and is currently building this deck, though budget for it has been exhausted for now. I don't have the Blackcleave Cliffs myself so I'm running 2x Sulfurous Springs, 1x Godless Shrine and 1x Plains in its place for now. My list has more W than the usual Reveler list though.
Or Sulfurous Springs if you're up for it. Sometimes it kills you though so I wouldn't go more than 3
Each copy of Scourge of Valkas will see each other copy of it as it enters the battlefield. The original dragon will see 5 dragons so its ability will trigger 5 times, as well as each of the 5 copies. That's going to be 5(triggers) * 6(different dragons whose abilities were triggered) * 6(damage, with 6 dragons in play) = 180. I think 180 damage is not something you can scoff at.
Make it 5 dragons with Scourge of Valkas.
But yeah I'm thinking that's the plan. RoR is going to be reserved for those 5 dragons
Tutors:
The black tutors would be better but where's the fun in that? These are the most budget-friendly tutors I can think of as well, with Dimir House Guard doubling as a sac outlet for when we want to get our dragons in the yard.
One other thing I think we need are sac outlets and a recursion suite. Here are what I had in mind:
Sac Outlets:
I don't know how many sac outlets we'd like to be running.
Recursion:
Feldon of the Third Path is a suggestion I really like, since we get some value out of our dragons if they're in the yard. Twilight's Call, Pyrrhic Revival, and Living Death for mass reanimation with Living Death doubling as a board wipe. Teneb, the Harvester and Bladewing the Risen are both on-theme reanimators. Dawn of the Dead is real nice being a passive reanimator but we do need a sac outlet out to get a lot of use from our dead dragons.
How about we go with a make-copies-turn-after-turn plan rather than than the multiple-copies-a-turn? Since RoR is somewhat of a unique card, we can let RoR handle the multiple copies plan and shift the focus for token creation somewhere else. I think what the deck wants is some sort of clone-maker that can make clones turn after turn. The mimic is nice since it does that. I'm thinking Mimic Vat does too. I really want to like Flameshadow Conjuring but having it be usable only on entering the battlefield limits its uses.
Lol this could be fun. However, the main reason I'm going for making multiple copies of the same dragon are the Kamigawan dragons, which have cool on-death triggers. And they actually die just having copies of themselves, so not having a sac outlet out isn't as crucial. I do think that having just the Kamigawan dragons in mind makes the strategy somewhat shaky but I do want it to be Plan A.
Mirrorwing Dragon I can see is bonkers in that line of play. I can see this happening sometimes: tutor Scion of the Ur-Dragon, tutor specific dragons (Mirrorwing Dragon, Kamigawa dragons), get them all back with Twilight's Call, do a kicked RoR on Mirrorwing. Oh my!
It's just sad that RoR has no equivalent though. Progenitor Mimic is the closest I can think of.
I like Infinite Relection, though it's only for nontoken creatures. Sad Utvara Hellkite is sad. With a board of around 4-5 other dragons along with Kokusho, we can cast Infinite Reflection targeting Kokusho, the Evening Star letting our field die. Then next turn do Rite of Replication. That would be nice.
Anyway, mimic-type effects I can see might be good. Progenitor Mimic targeting one of the Kamigawa dragons and then letting the original die to the Legend rule is a guaranteed grindy game. Targeting the likes of Utvara Hellkite is really good.
Here is my current list of dragons for your reference:
A quick look at Gatherer makes me sad since there is no other card that comes close enough to RoR. Because of this, do you think Eternal Witness and the like might have room in the deck?
I have a The Ur-Dragon commander deck but the deck doesn't seem to be a blast to play. I have been used to playing with Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper as my primary deck of choice for 2 years now so that could be one of the reasons I find the deck boring to play.
Now, I have been looking to make drastic changes to the deck and make it more fun. One thing I'm looking at is the interaction between Rite of Replication and Scourge of Valkas. We do know that thing kinda wins us games. However, I wonder if Rite of Replication can be used to a greater effect maybe with Kokusho, the Evening Star, Keiga, the Tide Star, and some other dragons we can think of. Having them legendary dragons die to the Legend rule seems like a fun way to play. With this, creating copies of the Kamigawan dragons would be real nice.
With the Kamigawa dragons, having them die is key so I'm thinking maybe we can craft a strategy that makes use of the graveyard. Having things that bring our dragons back helps. Twilight's Call could be nice here, as well as one-shot reanimation effects like Bladewing the Risen. Teneb, the Harvester could see a place in the deck as well.
To protect our dragons from exile-type removal, we will be needing to have a couple of sacrifice outlets. Since we are planning to use the graveyard as a resource, this could work out well for us. Instant speed, no mana sac outlets like Ashnod's Altar, Goblin Bombardment, High Market are actually quite good. A notable mention would be Evolutionary Leap to help us find more dragons.
In the game, plan A is to pull of the multiple Rite of Replication + Reanimator shenanigans the deck has. Without Rite of Replication, a grindy summon-sac-reanimate strategy could be viable. Plan B is all about beatdown. The deck would have some form of token creation in Utvara Hellkite and Wasitora, Nekoru Queen and some lord effects in Atarka, World Render and Dromoka, the Eternal.
What do you guys think of this? Is there a way to make it work? I'm in need of ideas that will help me form the backbone of this type of deck. I listed quite a few stuff so some ideas might eventually get cut off. It doesn't have to win a lot. What matters to me is that it's fun.
As a summary:
Plan A - Janky Rite of Replication + Dragons (Scourge of Valkas, Kokusho, the Evening Star)
Plan B - Beatdown with tokens and Atarka, World Render
Sac Outlets:
Reanimation:
Tokens:
Ideas are highly appreciated. Thanks!
Hey no problem. Glad to have helped. As to that, there is Anguished Unmaking though it doesn't hit lands. Duress is fine (I'm using them until I get more Thoughtseize) but I think a 3-3 split between inquisition and TS is a better disruption package.
I'll still be coming to this thread to see if there are any developments though.
I'm just new to the Modern scene and built a deck based on what I can afford for now. I would have wanted to go the BW tokens route but I lacked some cards. I tested with some proxies at first but a friend donated some cards (Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix) to me. I thought it would be a waste not to use the donated cards so I started putting them in. Over time, I traded for some cards and came up with this deck.
1x Blood Crypt
2x Bloodstained Mire
3x Concealed Courtyard
2x Flooded Strand
2x Godless Shrine
1x Inspiring Vantage
1x Needle Spires
2x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Shambling Vent
1x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
4x Windswept Heath
2x Fatal Push
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix
3x Path to Exile
3x Raise the Alarm
1x Secure the Wastes
2x Terminate
Sorcery (13)
2x Collective Brutality
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
3x Spectral Procession
Planeswalker (4)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
3x Intangible Virtue
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Crumble to Dust
1x Deflecting Palm
1x Wrath of God
2x Lost Legacy
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Rakdos Charm
1x Zealous Persecution
It plays very much like BW tokens with some burn. This is a midrange deck that wins via tokens + anthems. The deck also has some elements of burn to kill off utility creatures and/or to close off players' life totals.
Notice the off-color fetches (Windswept Heath, Flooded Strand). This is more of a budget concern, and it is built such that casting of Spectral Procession T3 is not much of a problem. Arid Mesa and Marsh Flats would certainly help the deck's consistency a lot.
Here are its components and the reasoning:
Token Producers
4x Lingering Souls - the centerpiece of all token builds
3x Spectral Procession - went with 3 since it strains the mana base a lot, but is a very good token producer
3x Raise the Alarm - early tokens with a surprise factor
1x Secure the Wastes - for the late game
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant - Elspeth + Sorin usually is a game over
Anthem
3x Intangible Virtue - felt like 4 is too clunky, so went down to 3
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor - I like seeing him at least once every game and having 3 helps to achieve that. I once went down to 2 copies and found myself wanting the lifelink. Sorin + Virtue is brutal.
Removal/Burn
3x Lightning Bolt - the only reason I'm not running 4 is that the deck's mana base does not support both T1 Inquisition of Kozilek and Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix - helps us survive to the mid game where the deck starts to shine
3x Path to Exile - a catch-all removal spell, not running 4 since helping an opponent ramp is rather troublesome
2x Fatal Push - used to have 4 but all the Gurmag Angler, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, and Reality Smasher running around makes this removal seem weak. It shines against Jund DS though
2x Terminate - a catch-all removal spell
Disruption
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Collective Brutality - could have been Thoughtseize but got these and now trying them out. All modes useful in most games I played in. Would replace with the aforementioned card once I get hold of them.
I haven't had much experience with the deck albeit some extensive testing sessions against Grixis and Jund DS variants, in which the deck performs good. I have also played against some other decks in local tournaments but lost a lot due to not knowing the meta quite well and making dumb plays.
Here are the matches I had and how I'd rate them:
1. Grixis DS - Favorable. The presence of lots of removal in the deck line up well with the few threats the deck has.
2. Jund DS - Slightly Favorable. A more difficult match-up than Grixis DS but still winnable. The version I always test against has Grim Flayer which is somewhat problematic for the deck.
3. UR Gifts Storm - Fair. Game 1 is usually unfavorable unless we can make them discard key pieces and kill off cost reducers (Baral, Chief of Compliance, Goblin Electromancer). G2 they usually side in Empty the Warrens in anticipation of Leyline of Sanctity (due to the presence of white)
4. Mono U Tron - Bad. The deck currently has around 30% win rate against this version of Tron.
5. Eldrazi Tron - Bad. Lots of early threats that make most of the deck's removal useless. There's around 3 or 4 players who use this deck in my local meta. Not quite sure if dedicating a lot of SB slots for this match-up will help.
6. Abzan CoCo Toolbox - Fair. Tokens + Anthem is a real pain for them. Plus the slew of removal in the deck makes life difficult for them.
7. Vizier CoCo Combo - Good. Similar to the toolbox version but more dedicated to a combo win. They have a worse plan B though so keeping the viziers off the table works fine.
8. Traditional Jund - Favorable. Easier to deal with than the DS version. And Liliana of the Veil is never a problem for the deck.
Notes
The deck has undergone multiple iterations before it settled down to this one. Previous versions had Young Pyromancer and Monastery Mentor. Those cards are good and could take over the game if left unchecked. However, they are terrible topdecks. With the prevalence of sorcery-speed spells inherent for any token build, it is clear that this is not the shell for those 2 cards. A Jeskai build is a lot better for those.
I know I still have to play a lot with the deck to know if it's any good or not. Comments and ideas are greatly appreciated.
P.S.: Highest level of play I'm planning for the deck currently is just at FNM. So it doesn't need to be very cutthroat.