This is a difficult question, one that I've been Pondering for a bit. Blue gives access to more efficient draw, countermagic, more hatebears, stax pieces, and alternate wincons. Do we expand on the hatebear aspect of the list and move toward a Derevi + B? Do we keep Karador mostly as it is and just add draw/countermagic? Does it become something altogether different? There are so many dimensions and potential directions for it to go that we'll have an enormous amount of conjecture, brainstorming, testing, trial, and error before we get to the correct blend. Also, the actual WUBG commander's abilities will likely influence the skew the list eventually takes. I'm very interested to see what we get.
I've noticed that the hatebears are very vulnerable to board wipes specifically toxic deluge. I've used many turns to build up the grip of stax using hate bears, but once the toxic deluge comes down, it's really hard to come back since my combo hasn't been drawn. I agree that this deck needs a lot more draw power. I've considered phyrexian arena and necropotence in here just to get the explosive start. However, double and even triple black is difficult to pull off depending on the lands that you draw. I've even thought of putting aluren in here to provide instant stax pieces and build a board from nothing, but once again it is 4 mana and by that time, we should have won with combo. My meta is full of blue combo/control most of it being grixis or BUG. All of my pieces either countered or deluge'd so it's a bit difficult to pilot this. Do you guys have any suggestions as to what I can play? I am thinking of adding pieces that can enable quicker combos such as buried alive and victimize to get a sac outlet + boonweaver giant. With the addition of Cryptolith rite I believe we should be able to abuse armageddon too since we have Sun Titan and null rod with stony silence if they have mana rocks. I believe that's the route I will go. Flagstones of Trokair will help offset the balance of land stax and so will Cryptolith rite.
Teeg is pretty instrumental to keeping your board in a manageable state. If he's online, Toxic Deluge and a kicked Cyclonic Rift are the only things to be worried about. If you keep getting Deluged, maybe throw in some rattlesnakes like Mindslicer to reduce the profitability of wraths.
In a blue heavy meta, you want to target your opponents' resources to keep them from countering everything. What kind of resources do they depend on? Land? Hokori, Winter Orb, Norn/Linvala+Living Plane. Artifacts? Kataki/Stony Silence. Dorks? Elesh Norn. Lots of Cards? Spirit of the Labyrinth. You can also metagame. My list is a baseline for the general meta. I removed several of the tax pieces because creature oriented midrange is prominent now, but if your meta is instant heavy feel free to lean back into the tax pieces or even add blue specific hate.
Per card draw, there is a balance to be found between tutor density and card advantage, especially with the yard as a potential resource. Phyrexian Arena is great (though I'm enjoying Dark Tutelage more since it doesn't say 'draw') and you should run it if it makes sense. Necropotence would be in if Survival of the Fittest weren't so crucial to the gameplan.
I'm noticing on Cobblepotts list that a lot of the "cost" stax effects have been taken out(vryn wingmare and glowrider and thorn), while still retaining the "effect" stax effects(eidolon and teeg and labyrinth). I was curious what the reason for taking these out are, and if it is a strong idea then why keep thalia in at all?
Under Vancouver there's been a significant swing over to creature oriented midrange. Thus, tax effects that hurt noncreature spells are less widely applicable. I keep Thalia because you do still run into storm or counterspell lists from time to time and need to have some outs to deal with them.
That makes sense, keep her as the strongest choice of the multitude.
I'll have to try taking Iona out. She has been alright but i feel like she is very meta dependent while every deck uses artifacts that SS shuts down.
I have loved arbor elf as well. Do you think there is potential for null rod, sphere of resistance, or static orb? or is static orb too much lock down on ourselves?
I've taken Iona out too. With the swing to creature heavy lists, Elesh Norn has taken over as the most powerful card in the deck (of course besides Boonweaver).
Per Null Rod, spheres and orbs, it's a meta call. I wouldn't run Static Orb because there isn't a great way for us to break parity short of janky niche pieces.
Necromancer - Karador cares about creatures. Most of our relevant tutor support is creature oriented and creatures are much easier to recur. Fiend Hunter - The only reason I choose this over Saffi is the fact that it acts as removal which is very relevant depending on the matchup. Living Plane - This is really useful as a surprise alternate line of play. Most people will be holding their removal and interaction for the usual suspects like Rector, Reanimate, etc. Living Plane looks really innocuous until you immediately grab Elesh Norn or Linvala as a follow up. Mentor of the Meek - I love this card. It's a creature that allows draw every time you play dorks/hatebears, which is all the time.
Has any of these cards been an all star for either of you or is this differences in meta? I was particularly interested in the effectiveness of Living Plane as a win-con as opposed to Stony Silence's ability to shut down artifact based decks even as just a mana inhibitor.
I'm sure meta likely plays into our varied choices for these slots. Living Plane is definitely tremendous though since it gives an easily assembled line of play that, in my opinion, is superior to Stony Silence.
Cobbelpott, did you enter the Reddit tournament? I know you made the final four last time around and another Karador Boonweaver deck made the final four this time.
I didn't enter this one. Though I participated in the previous three, winning one and making final table in another.
I played a few games yesterday and delirium is out of our range, I'm afraid, making Traverse a subpar card.
I included Deathrite Shaman in my 99 and boy did he pull his weight! An awesome awesome addition. My meta is pretty cutthroat, so there's always someone burning a fetch T1, allowing DS to accelerate our game when it's needed and then control.
I also started playing Winter Orb and it's been great. It's a great trap card which buys time. I'm eyeing Cryptolith Rite because it would be awesome to pay for stuff with Linvala or Hokori in taxed out tables, but I'm having a hard time removing stuff. I noticed Cobb removed Saffi, but I can't bring myself to getting rid of her as she's protection (too many times she allowed me to keep Iona and Elesh on the BF much longer than they were meant to be), combo enabler and a backup Fiend Hunter.
OK, so what do you think about removing Skullclamp? This card seems great at first, but I really don't want to get rid of my mana dorks and attaching it to something with 2 toughness for card draw is slow as hell. I got a lot more value from Grim Haruspex than from Skullclamp and I'd love to hear your thoughts on the card.
One more thing: this deck folds pretty badly to MLD. There's no coming back after, say, a cycled Decree of Annihilation or - worse - Ruination. Is there a plan for this scenario or do we just, you know, wing it? Mana dorks are most definitely not enough. Hmmm... Cryptolith Rite could actually help, but I'm kinda entering the Magical Christmas Land here.
You've got some similar results to what I've experienced. Traverse the Ulvenwald hasn't been great (or at least not as great as it is in Angry Frog or Sidisi). Deathrite Shaman, Winter Orb, and Cryptolith Rite are all in my current iteration of the list. I really like Rite, not just because of the MLD resilience, but also because most of the hatebears don't really have much else to do, so turning them into Hate Dorks is great. The fact that it works when you have no land is gravy. I had looked into Earthcraft long ago, but the number of nonbasics in the list really hurts its viability.
I like running both Haruspex and Skullclamp. If you know that an opponent has a game winning line of play incoming, sacking a couple dorks preemptively to dig for an answer is absolutely worth it.
I don't see how you two can be so certain that t1 GSZ for Arbor is bad while also playing Fyndhorn Elves, Elvish Mystic, and Llanowar Elves, which also suffer from the various wraths and Linvala effects
T1 GSV for Arbor isn't a bad play. It's just the only strong play arbor gives you in my opinion. Dorks are ramp. When you play a normal dork, you can also play a land for turn, thus netting capacity for one extra mana. With arbor, you effectively lose your land for turn to play a dork. Would you play a dork that said "The turn you play this creature, you may not play a land."? Normal dorks also only succumb to wrath effects and Linvala/Cursed Totem effects. Winter Orb and MLD don't harm them in any way. Arbor is screwed by wraths, Linvala/Totem, Winter Orb effects, and MLD.
@cobblepott: I still haven't seen you defend not playing Green Sun's Zenith + Dryad Arbor. Arbor should be in the list so that your green fetches can find a creature when you don't have one (for Pattern of Rebirth or similar), and GSZ is better than manadorks because it is also a three-mana Gaddock Teeg, a four-mana Eternal Witness, et cetera.
I think GSV should probably make it into the list given the targets available in the most recent version. However, I'm still skeptical about Dryad Arbor. Sure you can do the cute T1 GSV trick, but besides that, it:
Comes into play with summoning sickness but still counts as land per turn.
Dies to wipes/Elesh Norn and MLD. Normally you rely on dorks to get you through those situations.
Gets locked down by both Winter Orb effects and Linvala/Cursed Totem. Normally you want your mana sources to be susceptible to only one of those.
Regarding Shred Memory, gma hit it on the head with the fact that it's an activated ability rather than a cast and has the cmc to grab most of the things that we really care about (Don't forget Teeg, Thalia, Spirit, Winter Orb, Dark Confidant and others.)
Regarding Reclamation Sage vs Caustic Caterpillar, I want to be able to get out of both Linvala/Cursed Totem situations and Hushwing Gryff/Torpor Orb situations. Thus having a creature with ETB and a creature with an activated ability makes sense. I could perhaps be persuaded to swap Qasali Pridemage for the caterpillar.
With all the midrange happening in the meta, it probably makes sense to reinstate some noncreature interaction points. Pernicious Deed is a good one since it can be recurred with Sun Titan. Toxic Deluge and Abrupt Decay are close behind.
Generally on my next turn, I would activate Survival in response to her upkeep trigger, fetch Boonweaver to the yard, and get him into play without them being able to do anything about it.
It doesn't work that way. You must choose a target for Sheoldred's trigger when it goes on stack and BEFORE you can respond to it. You can use Survival EoT if you have mana open though.
Hah, good catch! No one ever pointed that out before. So yeah, instead of deferring to the upkeep, just wait till the last opponent eot to grab Boonweaver or whichever piece needs to dependably hit the board.
I've been out of commission for awhile (heart surgery) and still have a bunch of testing to do before updating the list. As many have discovered, tappedout is where I keep the raw list that updates frequently. On to the topics of the past few months...
Land count post Vancouver - Currently sitting at 32 lands, haven't noticed much trouble putting pieces together. Added Arbor Elf, Gaea's Cradle, Ancient Tomb, Carpet of Flowers and Weathered Wayfarer which support the consistency of having access to sufficient amounts of mana. (more below)
Shape of the meta post Vancouver - The loss of Partials has ostensibly had several effects. 1) Combo loses ground. Without being able to dig aggressively during mulligans, combo lists lose consistency in assembling early wins. Thus, they need to increase tutor density (which we've sort of maxed out on) or add draw engines to compensate. 2) Midrange gains ground. Slower decks packing lots of answers looking to win the long game are better positioned given that early combo wins are now less dependable. Slower decks have more time to set up and can get away with tactics that pre-Vancouver would have been unprofitable. 3) The extra turn or two before a game is decided also strongly benefits stax/prison decks. These lists often run a huge volume of denial pieces and are able to cope with Vancouver without much trouble. Thus, successful lists need to be able to continue advancing through stax effects (choose from mana rocks, dorks, untap effects, blink effects, whatever helps to overcome denial).
The new Boonweaver - Even before the switch to Vancouver, many lists were adapting to our game plan and having more success in disrupting it. That, coupled with the new shape of the post Vancouver meta, leads us to reevaluate the high level strategy. Instead of priorities looking like 1) Execute the combo, 2) Disrupt the table (if the combo won't come together quickly), we instead invert the strategy to 1) Disrupt the table, 2) Combo out when there's an opening. Yes, we can still combo out early from time to time, but the goal is to assemble the correct board state and win reliably rather than racing to the combo, getting disrupted, and losing. To support all this, we've added more hate bears, more mana generation, and more card draw to enable a healthier long game in the common situation that it comes to that.
Grim Haruspex, Phyrexian Arena, Graveborn Muse - Card draw. It's likely that all three of these will wind up making the final list. If we're playing a slower, grindier game, incremental draw yields considerable advantage as the game goes on, particularly if we sculpt the table to our will (via hate/tax bears).
Sylvan Tutor - Comes and goes. It's very cheap, but very slow and can't be cast during our upkeep, so it telegraphs the play to come. For now, it's out.
Buried Alive - We've taken a little focus away from fast combo and also taken a bit away from reanimation in favor of a more prison oriented play style. These modifications lead to the cutting of this card.
Sheoldred, Whispering One - This may come back in. She was originally slotted for the same reason as Apprentice Necromancer. Activated/triggered abilities are harder to disrupt than spell casts. Sheoldred normally did lots of work in control-heavy games where opponents would generally let her resolve, seeing her as a clunky non-threat. Generally on my next turn, I would activate Survival in response to her upkeep trigger, fetch Boonweaver to the yard, and get him into play without them being able to do anything about it.
Carpet of Flowers - This card is the real deal. If you're playing competitively, you'll be facing someone running islands. This gives dependable mana access of any color and works through lockdown effects allowing you more flexibility to do what you need.
Sensei's Divining Top - A tough cut to make for sure. At the end of the day card draw is better than card filtering.
Multiplayer commander tends to reward doing the biggest thing possible and ramp decks. People also tend to either have light disruption that is symmetrical rystic study/propoganda, type effects, or targeted removal (like STP, PTE, doomblade, beast within, pongify, counter spells). This means that being the fastest person can be dangerous, but also mean that if you run out of gas, or get disrupted, you can be left very far behind. Stuff like peacekeeper, kataki, thalia, can be good against certain decks, but literally stone dead against others. And in multiplayer games, while you may inconvenience 1 player, it may not affect anyone else, and costs you a turn/card doing something that doesn't progress your game plan very much. It's not like you are playing a prison deck here, so those cards may not help you that much.
Also, hushwing gryff turns off most of your own creatures which is a little surprising that you would run it.
Greater good is another sac outlet that will let you tear through your deck and find your pieces faster. Liliana of the veil is a good symmetrical discard spell if that's what you want. Sadistic Hypnotist is a great sac outlet as well as it can empty several players hands pretty quickly (even it its not instant speed, it can still be used to combo).
The design of this deck is with a fairly specific, highly competitive meta in mind. Your characterization of typical multiplayer play with ramp and doing big effects doesn't quite line up with what plays out in that group. The hatebear catalog in this list also reflects specific slots for dealing with that meta. You're right that sometimes the more specific answers, like Peacekeeper, can be a blank, but there is so much tutor capacity in the list that finding 'the right' answers isn't often difficult.
The comment about this not being a prison deck is interesting because the newer version in the works prioritizes shutting down opponent play before assembling the combo. Racing the tier one group isn't always profitable so new additions have been made to move more in a prison direction. The combo isn't any slower, but the game plan has shifted to only pull the trigger when opponents are sufficiently held up. I'm excited to share it once it's fully vetted.
I talk about Hushwing Gryff in the writeup. It will actually be replaced with Containment Priest, which people find even more shocking in a Karador list. The idea is that, in order to go off we need a sac outlet in play, so generally we get hate into place and then sac it when ready to go off.
Greater Good is only ok in this list because most of the creatures have low cmc. Thus it fills the yard nicely, but many times forces us to toss noncreatures that we'd rather have in our hand.
Sadistic Hypnotist was in the original version of the list, but got dropped because it's expensive and we're more interested in keeping hate on the table than recurring value ETBs.
This is actually a really curious version of Karador that I haven't seen before. I've been playing the basic Lark combo version since 2011(?) or so (my first real EDH deck), and most of the versions of the deck I've seen have diverged on whether it's more combo oriented, or combo control. Obviously, yours is much more combo oriented with one of the lowest curves I've seen. That said, if you are having card draw issues, I would evaluate the hate cards that you are running, and add some just straight value creatures and cards (not necessarily card draw cards, although those can be great as well) which may help with the card advantage problem. Stuff like Life from the loam, wood elves, and other cheap ramp cards that pull lands out of your deck which actually can help to improve draws in the later game (especially if they are being recurred multiple times). This deck definitely doesn't seem like a multiplayer deck at all if I'm honest though. It seems like a 1v1 deck (even if it can kill any number of players with its infinite combo).
The live version of the list that I've been testing on Cockatrice is mutated from the list posted on this thread (which I'll update soon, perhaps over the holidays). The CA is in better shape than I originally was thinking (variance). One angle that got beefed up is ramp which actually assists in CA since it allows Karador to come out early if needed.
Your comment about the list looking more like 1v1 than multiplayer is intriguing. What inclusions give you that feeling? The hatebears all provide symmetric effects. If I was to roll this as 1v1, I'd probably be running Mesmeric Fiend, Tidehollow Sculler, Sin Collector, and Brain Maggot.
Thought about it, but given the choice, I'd still stick with Grim Haruspex, which is actually removed in the coming iteration of the list. Has abomination run well for you?
Hey cobble i was wondering what you thought of Elvish visionary over grim haruspex. I've been playing with haruspex for a few months now and it tends to do a few things in my games and none of them useful. (Dies immediately, Stays in hand because I can combo without it, get pitched to survival) You never need haruspex to combo kill and he tends to be absolute garbage at drawing any grand amount of cards due to targeted removal and higher than I'm willing to pay cost. Visionary draws a single card upon entry, chumps/sacs and can be re cast with karador much cheaper than haruspex. IT seems to me like a more consistent and self contained if less powerful engine.
The new iteration of the deck drops Haruspex.
There is currently tension in the list around CA. We run lots of tutors, which generally assist in finding the pieces needed to address the board and then put together a win. However, if you get disrupted, it can be difficult to reassemble a hand (especially if it was noncreature spells that were disrupted). Thus, I'm looking at a couple potentials for getting more draw into the list. Unfortunately, nothing is really making me happy at the moment. Midrange versions of Karador can use dredge as pseudo CA given the yard is a secondary hand and that winds up working really well since they're cheap and creature oriented. Unfortunately, due to the relatively high number of noncreatures in our combo apparatus, dredge often works against us here. Most likely Phyrexian Arena will make its way back in, though I really wish Corpse Augur or Disciple of Bolas were more viable, or that Necropotence didn't have the exile clause. Another wrinkle is that the new version of the list runs Spirit of the Labyrinth which I believe is correct, but then nullifies any new card draw pieces we add.
Needless to say, the new revisions are a work in progress.
How often do you manage to win without comboing ? If an important piece gets exiled for example.
I play Karador in 1v1 so it's fine but in multiplayer if i'm somehow unable to combo i find it hard to actually close the game, even if it's pretty good at grinding.
Most wins definitely come off the back of some kind of combo. The huge depth of the Reveillark and Friends roster assists mightily in resisting targeted exile effects. Which specific pieces are getting exiled on you?
Hey cobble Thanks for the advice vs. chainer I'm having some good luck with Revokering the bugger and i was wondering if you had any possible replacements or a maybeboard for the list planned out? Right now I cant afford an imperial seal for a few months and I'm currently playing damnation in the slot but its proven pretty useless so far so rambling aside my question for you is do you have any ideas as to what could be in this slot without inhibiting the deck too hard?
I don't really have a maybeboard as such right now, I'm playing around with some more tax creatures, just because my meta is really fast, but I don't know if they would apply well to all metas in general. Note that the Acidic Slime is going out and Zulaport Cutthroat is coming in. (I've got a number of organizational updates to the primer coming soon)
As far as some cheap alternatives to throw in, tutors are always good for finding combo machinery or looking up hate. Diabolic Tutor or Beseech the Queen, while not being great, are perfectly fine for metas that are on a budget. I've also been pretty happy with Thalia, and may investigate Vryn Wingmare and/or Glowrider for similar effects. These don't hurt us too badly because of the creature density of the list and they really disrupt fast decks that want to come over the top quickly.
I was wondering if you had any tips for dealing with a particularly strong mono black chainer control list. He typically resolves chainer turn 3-4 with about 3 open black and holds it up forcing me to not combo out if I have it and even worse making me play all my creautres fairly for fear of theft. I find that once chainer resolves this deck just doesnt really have a mean to kill him unless swords is in opening hand/tutorable and thats a one shot deal where as chainer will be back on the next turn with his classic 3-9 open mana.
You've got some options. Grand Abolisher will keep him from interacting with you during your turn, so that's a reasonable choice. Along a similar line would be Phyrexian Revoker for keeping him from activating at all. Mono black has a notoriously hard time removing artifacts and enchantments, so Nevermore and Pithing Needle could be effective if you're packing enough noncreature tutor support.
Teeg is pretty instrumental to keeping your board in a manageable state. If he's online, Toxic Deluge and a kicked Cyclonic Rift are the only things to be worried about. If you keep getting Deluged, maybe throw in some rattlesnakes like Mindslicer to reduce the profitability of wraths.
In a blue heavy meta, you want to target your opponents' resources to keep them from countering everything. What kind of resources do they depend on? Land? Hokori, Winter Orb, Norn/Linvala+Living Plane. Artifacts? Kataki/Stony Silence. Dorks? Elesh Norn. Lots of Cards? Spirit of the Labyrinth. You can also metagame. My list is a baseline for the general meta. I removed several of the tax pieces because creature oriented midrange is prominent now, but if your meta is instant heavy feel free to lean back into the tax pieces or even add blue specific hate.
Per card draw, there is a balance to be found between tutor density and card advantage, especially with the yard as a potential resource. Phyrexian Arena is great (though I'm enjoying Dark Tutelage more since it doesn't say 'draw') and you should run it if it makes sense. Necropotence would be in if Survival of the Fittest weren't so crucial to the gameplan.
Under Vancouver there's been a significant swing over to creature oriented midrange. Thus, tax effects that hurt noncreature spells are less widely applicable. I keep Thalia because you do still run into storm or counterspell lists from time to time and need to have some outs to deal with them.
I've taken Iona out too. With the swing to creature heavy lists, Elesh Norn has taken over as the most powerful card in the deck (of course besides Boonweaver).
Per Null Rod, spheres and orbs, it's a meta call. I wouldn't run Static Orb because there isn't a great way for us to break parity short of janky niche pieces.
Necromancer - Karador cares about creatures. Most of our relevant tutor support is creature oriented and creatures are much easier to recur.
Fiend Hunter - The only reason I choose this over Saffi is the fact that it acts as removal which is very relevant depending on the matchup.
Living Plane - This is really useful as a surprise alternate line of play. Most people will be holding their removal and interaction for the usual suspects like Rector, Reanimate, etc. Living Plane looks really innocuous until you immediately grab Elesh Norn or Linvala as a follow up.
Mentor of the Meek - I love this card. It's a creature that allows draw every time you play dorks/hatebears, which is all the time.
I'm sure meta likely plays into our varied choices for these slots. Living Plane is definitely tremendous though since it gives an easily assembled line of play that, in my opinion, is superior to Stony Silence.
I didn't enter this one. Though I participated in the previous three, winning one and making final table in another.
You've got some similar results to what I've experienced. Traverse the Ulvenwald hasn't been great (or at least not as great as it is in Angry Frog or Sidisi). Deathrite Shaman, Winter Orb, and Cryptolith Rite are all in my current iteration of the list. I really like Rite, not just because of the MLD resilience, but also because most of the hatebears don't really have much else to do, so turning them into Hate Dorks is great. The fact that it works when you have no land is gravy. I had looked into Earthcraft long ago, but the number of nonbasics in the list really hurts its viability.
I like running both Haruspex and Skullclamp. If you know that an opponent has a game winning line of play incoming, sacking a couple dorks preemptively to dig for an answer is absolutely worth it.
T1 GSV for Arbor isn't a bad play. It's just the only strong play arbor gives you in my opinion. Dorks are ramp. When you play a normal dork, you can also play a land for turn, thus netting capacity for one extra mana. With arbor, you effectively lose your land for turn to play a dork. Would you play a dork that said "The turn you play this creature, you may not play a land."? Normal dorks also only succumb to wrath effects and Linvala/Cursed Totem effects. Winter Orb and MLD don't harm them in any way. Arbor is screwed by wraths, Linvala/Totem, Winter Orb effects, and MLD.
It is definitely unique and has some clever play angles not available to normal lands or dorks. But the liabilities outweigh the benefits in my view.
That's great. Data speaks volumes.
I think GSV should probably make it into the list given the targets available in the most recent version. However, I'm still skeptical about Dryad Arbor. Sure you can do the cute T1 GSV trick, but besides that, it:
Regarding Shred Memory, gma hit it on the head with the fact that it's an activated ability rather than a cast and has the cmc to grab most of the things that we really care about (Don't forget Teeg, Thalia, Spirit, Winter Orb, Dark Confidant and others.)
Regarding Reclamation Sage vs Caustic Caterpillar, I want to be able to get out of both Linvala/Cursed Totem situations and Hushwing Gryff/Torpor Orb situations. Thus having a creature with ETB and a creature with an activated ability makes sense. I could perhaps be persuaded to swap Qasali Pridemage for the caterpillar.
With all the midrange happening in the meta, it probably makes sense to reinstate some noncreature interaction points. Pernicious Deed is a good one since it can be recurred with Sun Titan. Toxic Deluge and Abrupt Decay are close behind.
Hah, good catch! No one ever pointed that out before. So yeah, instead of deferring to the upkeep, just wait till the last opponent eot to grab Boonweaver or whichever piece needs to dependably hit the board.
I've been out of commission for awhile (heart surgery) and still have a bunch of testing to do before updating the list. As many have discovered, tappedout is where I keep the raw list that updates frequently. On to the topics of the past few months...
The design of this deck is with a fairly specific, highly competitive meta in mind. Your characterization of typical multiplayer play with ramp and doing big effects doesn't quite line up with what plays out in that group. The hatebear catalog in this list also reflects specific slots for dealing with that meta. You're right that sometimes the more specific answers, like Peacekeeper, can be a blank, but there is so much tutor capacity in the list that finding 'the right' answers isn't often difficult.
The comment about this not being a prison deck is interesting because the newer version in the works prioritizes shutting down opponent play before assembling the combo. Racing the tier one group isn't always profitable so new additions have been made to move more in a prison direction. The combo isn't any slower, but the game plan has shifted to only pull the trigger when opponents are sufficiently held up. I'm excited to share it once it's fully vetted.
I talk about Hushwing Gryff in the writeup. It will actually be replaced with Containment Priest, which people find even more shocking in a Karador list. The idea is that, in order to go off we need a sac outlet in play, so generally we get hate into place and then sac it when ready to go off.
Greater Good is only ok in this list because most of the creatures have low cmc. Thus it fills the yard nicely, but many times forces us to toss noncreatures that we'd rather have in our hand.
Sadistic Hypnotist was in the original version of the list, but got dropped because it's expensive and we're more interested in keeping hate on the table than recurring value ETBs.
The live version of the list that I've been testing on Cockatrice is mutated from the list posted on this thread (which I'll update soon, perhaps over the holidays). The CA is in better shape than I originally was thinking (variance). One angle that got beefed up is ramp which actually assists in CA since it allows Karador to come out early if needed.
Your comment about the list looking more like 1v1 than multiplayer is intriguing. What inclusions give you that feeling? The hatebears all provide symmetric effects. If I was to roll this as 1v1, I'd probably be running Mesmeric Fiend, Tidehollow Sculler, Sin Collector, and Brain Maggot.
Thought about it, but given the choice, I'd still stick with Grim Haruspex, which is actually removed in the coming iteration of the list. Has abomination run well for you?
The new iteration of the deck drops Haruspex.
There is currently tension in the list around CA. We run lots of tutors, which generally assist in finding the pieces needed to address the board and then put together a win. However, if you get disrupted, it can be difficult to reassemble a hand (especially if it was noncreature spells that were disrupted). Thus, I'm looking at a couple potentials for getting more draw into the list. Unfortunately, nothing is really making me happy at the moment. Midrange versions of Karador can use dredge as pseudo CA given the yard is a secondary hand and that winds up working really well since they're cheap and creature oriented. Unfortunately, due to the relatively high number of noncreatures in our combo apparatus, dredge often works against us here. Most likely Phyrexian Arena will make its way back in, though I really wish Corpse Augur or Disciple of Bolas were more viable, or that Necropotence didn't have the exile clause. Another wrinkle is that the new version of the list runs Spirit of the Labyrinth which I believe is correct, but then nullifies any new card draw pieces we add.
Needless to say, the new revisions are a work in progress.
Most wins definitely come off the back of some kind of combo. The huge depth of the Reveillark and Friends roster assists mightily in resisting targeted exile effects. Which specific pieces are getting exiled on you?
Nothing from the new set unfortunately.
Lots of updates and reorganization coming. Just lots of overtime at work is pushing the time horizon a bit.
I don't really have a maybeboard as such right now, I'm playing around with some more tax creatures, just because my meta is really fast, but I don't know if they would apply well to all metas in general. Note that the Acidic Slime is going out and Zulaport Cutthroat is coming in. (I've got a number of organizational updates to the primer coming soon)
As far as some cheap alternatives to throw in, tutors are always good for finding combo machinery or looking up hate. Diabolic Tutor or Beseech the Queen, while not being great, are perfectly fine for metas that are on a budget. I've also been pretty happy with Thalia, and may investigate Vryn Wingmare and/or Glowrider for similar effects. These don't hurt us too badly because of the creature density of the list and they really disrupt fast decks that want to come over the top quickly.
I presume that's targeting VextonHersteller?
You've got some options. Grand Abolisher will keep him from interacting with you during your turn, so that's a reasonable choice. Along a similar line would be Phyrexian Revoker for keeping him from activating at all. Mono black has a notoriously hard time removing artifacts and enchantments, so Nevermore and Pithing Needle could be effective if you're packing enough noncreature tutor support.