I may have more later, but for now, I think the format is going to be fairly slow, given that the power/toughness imbalance of BFZ has only increased here.
I think I will disagree with you, Puddle. Sure, Ingest is awful. But an awful lot of the removal in the set exiles, and it's the removal that you want early. (Generally, because it works best early.)
I don't think it's as powerful as Delve, but it's similar to it. It requires other components, and doesn't work too well in multiples, but it gives added value. You may need to jump through more hoops (as Delve rewards you for stuff hitting the GY, and exiling is more difficult), but you need far fewer exiled cards to Process.
Yes, these guys in Conspiracy were quite good. I know several Conspiracy games I did had people with Pitchburn Devils where other people, with life totals in the <4 range, simply couldn't attack them because they would die.
FTW: Well, we could do a Risk Cube / FMEA-like analysis, if you like... 'Incidence, Impact, Controls'
While I understand that SD is less useful when the distribution isn't normal, I am just trying to inject some view of variance into the data. I would love Coefficient of Variation or a boxplot, but a lot more people know about SD.
Does someone know where I could get setlists in Excel or similar format (.csv, e.g.)? I could run up all the stats quickly in that respect.
Another way to look at Awaken when combined with Scions is that it allows you to 'convert' your 1/1 Scions into a single creature of X/X (generally). Sheer Drop can be played for its 'normal cost' and you can sac 3 Scions to get a 3/3 creature. I would imagine that all of the Awaken costs worked this way in Design. Development probably changed some (like Clutch of Currents) so that they were slightly less efficient.
merl: I wasn't suggesting it was. I took your comments in a positive light.
My frustration with people who don't feel they need to know the rules is quite general and not limited to Magic. E.g., I am the person at the RP table who knows the most rules, to the point that I more or less direct combat to avoid wholesale slaughter.
I think the best way to do this is to weight the averages of each rarity by their frequency; i.e., how often they show up in packs.
Also, averages are nice, but these are only central tendency statistics. Something that would be very useful is to give spread statistics (SD, Variance, etc.) so that we can understand the variance around these numbers. Pulse has a very good point about outliers, and this would be caught by calculating SD for the set.
Mainly because Ingest is not the only (or even the primary) method of obtaining Processor fuel.
There is at least cards in Sultai that is removal in some degree and also exiles the target. They all cost 3. Most if not all Processors cost 4 or more.
Blue also has Benthic Infiltrator, probably the best Ingester. It can attack on turn 4, Ingest, and then drop Murk Strider. Seems like a decent Tempo play.
Not saying that this will work, just that I am cautiously optimistic.
Siefer: This is less parasitic than Splice, because Splice only worked with Arcane cards. Ingest and Processor are naturally synergistic, but it's not like colors--particularly White--haven't gotten Exile effects for a while.
Processors naturally prey on certain effects:
1) It works well to 'permanize' O-Ring effects. This is particularly good as it is something under the Processor's player's control. This is 'balanced' by White having no Processors of its own.
2) In current Standard, it preys on Delve cards.
3) It has the ability to penalize 'red draw'.
So it definitely has implications beyond this set.
A better comparison would be to Soulshift and Spiritcraft, where it needs Spirits to work well. Those were fairly rare before Kamigawa, but they started showing up more later. (Ravnica block certainly had more than its fair share of Spirits, likely for interblock synergy.)
merl: Feel free to sig that if you wish. I do get frustrated with my friend sometimes because 'he doesn't bother to know the rules to the game he's playing', but I have come to the realization that I cannot in fairness impose my views of 'how games are played' on others.
spairy: Oh, it is quite complex. That doesn't mean that I think MaRo is correct in avoiding complexity, but he is correct in the complexity area.
I guess, though, that I am apparently the most entitled players in the game, given that I am fairly sure that I understand Banding to a degree that MaRo says did not occur in most tournament-level players.
I view things from a different lens, but I do realize that that lens is there. I mean, my best friend just started playing about 18-24 months ago, and he has issues with what I consider game fundamentals. However, when all is said and done, I would rather be able to play with my best friend than have a game that was more 'my complexity speed' and that I couldn't.
Wizard: I see the set differently, but then I am primarily a Limited player.
As far as Commander goes, if the UR deck in this year's Commander product indeed has an Artifact Commander, things like Herald of Kozilek look good. (In addition to all the Thopter shenanigans from Origins, of course.)
I am also hoping for a WB commander that works with all of the Vampire lifegain matters cards.
Play them early as just their spell, and then recur them to play them later for their Awaken cost.
Not sure what the other color for Tempo will be, but likely UB. UB looks like Processor shenanigans from Hell, honestly. Ulamog's Nullifier, like so many of the gold uncommons, is the key card for its archetype.
I wouldn't joke with that. Few months ago I read an article where MaRo said everything that he would "fix" if he had a time machine to talk with Garfield and Instants were one of those "fixes". He said he would make everything sorcery and just give Flash and the Instant supertype to some select stuff.
wasn't this in response to the Flash mechanic and not instants as a whole? pretty sure Counterspells and instant kill spells would still have been a norm, just as "Instant Sorceries"
Very very true. MaRo is not against Instants; he would have made Flash evergreen from the start and make Instants Sorceries with Flash (or a different supertype, as pointed out above). This isn't a 'dumb down design to make it Hearthstone' approach. This is simple clarity. Things that 'care about Instants and Sorceries' would be much cleaner if it would just be 'Sorceries'. Gives more space on the cards, etc. etc.
Personally, I think that anyone who uses MaRo's statements about this topic to argue that he's trying to 'turn Magic into Hearthstone' (and by implication kill Magic) are simply reading their own fears into his comments.
pierre: On 5), I guess I am not trying to claim that the lifegain theme is actually any good. I just like that, unlike Extort and similar approaches to it, there are rewards in addition to the draining.
There are several cards that 'work' with the lifegain matters that are at least decent:
1) As stated above, the 1WB Wind Drake drains for 1 in each upkeep.
2) Vampiric Rites looks like a repeatable Altar's Reap which combos with Scions. May work well.
3) The 1/3 that can gain life looks, again, reasonable but not spectacular.
There are others, but there's a lot of incidental lifegain in the two colors.
I don't like Expedition Raptor at all. It's a 2/2 for 5 that doesn't get any bigger with its own ability, so....
I completely disagree that Containment Membrane is better than Tightening Coils.
I may have more later, but for now, I think the format is going to be fairly slow, given that the power/toughness imbalance of BFZ has only increased here.
I don't think it's as powerful as Delve, but it's similar to it. It requires other components, and doesn't work too well in multiples, but it gives added value. You may need to jump through more hoops (as Delve rewards you for stuff hitting the GY, and exiling is more difficult), but you need far fewer exiled cards to Process.
While I understand that SD is less useful when the distribution isn't normal, I am just trying to inject some view of variance into the data. I would love Coefficient of Variation or a boxplot, but a lot more people know about SD.
Does someone know where I could get setlists in Excel or similar format (.csv, e.g.)? I could run up all the stats quickly in that respect.
My frustration with people who don't feel they need to know the rules is quite general and not limited to Magic. E.g., I am the person at the RP table who knows the most rules, to the point that I more or less direct combat to avoid wholesale slaughter.
Also, averages are nice, but these are only central tendency statistics. Something that would be very useful is to give spread statistics (SD, Variance, etc.) so that we can understand the variance around these numbers. Pulse has a very good point about outliers, and this would be caught by calculating SD for the set.
I'll see if I can produce these easily.
Mainly because Ingest is not the only (or even the primary) method of obtaining Processor fuel.
There is at least cards in Sultai that is removal in some degree and also exiles the target. They all cost 3. Most if not all Processors cost 4 or more.
Blue also has Benthic Infiltrator, probably the best Ingester. It can attack on turn 4, Ingest, and then drop Murk Strider. Seems like a decent Tempo play.
Not saying that this will work, just that I am cautiously optimistic.
Siefer: This is less parasitic than Splice, because Splice only worked with Arcane cards. Ingest and Processor are naturally synergistic, but it's not like colors--particularly White--haven't gotten Exile effects for a while.
Processors naturally prey on certain effects:
1) It works well to 'permanize' O-Ring effects. This is particularly good as it is something under the Processor's player's control. This is 'balanced' by White having no Processors of its own.
2) In current Standard, it preys on Delve cards.
3) It has the ability to penalize 'red draw'.
So it definitely has implications beyond this set.
A better comparison would be to Soulshift and Spiritcraft, where it needs Spirits to work well. Those were fairly rare before Kamigawa, but they started showing up more later. (Ravnica block certainly had more than its fair share of Spirits, likely for interblock synergy.)
I guess, though, that I am apparently the most entitled players in the game, given that I am fairly sure that I understand Banding to a degree that MaRo says did not occur in most tournament-level players.
I view things from a different lens, but I do realize that that lens is there. I mean, my best friend just started playing about 18-24 months ago, and he has issues with what I consider game fundamentals. However, when all is said and done, I would rather be able to play with my best friend than have a game that was more 'my complexity speed' and that I couldn't.
As far as Commander goes, if the UR deck in this year's Commander product indeed has an Artifact Commander, things like Herald of Kozilek look good. (In addition to all the Thopter shenanigans from Origins, of course.)
I am also hoping for a WB commander that works with all of the Vampire lifegain matters cards.
Play them early as just their spell, and then recur them to play them later for their Awaken cost.
Not sure what the other color for Tempo will be, but likely UB. UB looks like Processor shenanigans from Hell, honestly. Ulamog's Nullifier, like so many of the gold uncommons, is the key card for its archetype.
Very very true. MaRo is not against Instants; he would have made Flash evergreen from the start and make Instants Sorceries with Flash (or a different supertype, as pointed out above). This isn't a 'dumb down design to make it Hearthstone' approach. This is simple clarity. Things that 'care about Instants and Sorceries' would be much cleaner if it would just be 'Sorceries'. Gives more space on the cards, etc. etc.
Personally, I think that anyone who uses MaRo's statements about this topic to argue that he's trying to 'turn Magic into Hearthstone' (and by implication kill Magic) are simply reading their own fears into his comments.
I am not sure I agree with 'bad Rise of the Eldrazi', but certainly it reflects more of RoE than ZEN... because RoE changed the plane of Zendikar.
There are several cards that 'work' with the lifegain matters that are at least decent:
1) As stated above, the 1WB Wind Drake drains for 1 in each upkeep.
2) Vampiric Rites looks like a repeatable Altar's Reap which combos with Scions. May work well.
3) The 1/3 that can gain life looks, again, reasonable but not spectacular.
There are others, but there's a lot of incidental lifegain in the two colors.
Edit: Honorable mention goes to Retreat to Hagra.