The point is that poison shouldn't exist at all because it doesn't add to the game, it only fragments it in an unneeded manner.
Not only does it initially fragment it, but as you stated it forces mechanics to support it if it's to be any serious mechanic, thus fragmenting the game further... Until eventually we have two different games that don't even really make sense together.
As silly as it sounds, I could play Magic vs. Yu-gi-oh and come out even, as long as we keep our life totals respective to each game, but removal equal. This isn't to compare Magic to Yu-Gi-Oh, but rather to say that making two games out of one, but dividing simple things like types of damage done by creatures is not a good idea. Sure your creatures do X times more damage, but my life total is X times more as well, or in this case my life total is X times less and your creatures do X times less...
You bringing up things like tribal, or mechanic support, shows me that you don't grasp the point I'm bringing across. Infect creates a secondary game within magic, not a mechanic alone, and that's the issue.
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Dec 14, 2010Demagogue posted a message on Mechanic RundownPoison is part of Infect, the part that makes it significantly worse than Wither... And even Poison wasn't as bad in the past, as the creatures still did their regular damage.Posted in: Demagogue Blog
Tribal was playable with other cards, and didn't matter if it was Tribal. A Tarfire is still a Shock, that just happens to have extra rules text, but a card with Infect isn't the same as a card without Infect when needed to be. Imagine if Tribal cards did a specific kind of damage. That Tarfire now does "Goblin Damage" and your opponent has a regular life total and a "Goblin life total".
Does that help explain things? Distance yourself from the fact that Infect is linear, and focus more on the part where you simply can't play Infect and Non-Infect cards in the same deck as you'd be focusing on two life totals during the game instead of just one... There honestly isn't a comparison for Infect as a mechanic, because there hasn't been one in Magic's history that has literally kept you from playing with other cards as a whole in such a visible way.
Taking this to a bit more of an extreme, imagine if Wizards said you can only play a maximum of two colours in your deck, period. Infect is a softer version of saying you can play "A creatures/spells" or "B creature/spells", where as every other mechanic says "Preferably play with more A or B cards, but you can still play them with any other cards." -
Dec 14, 2010Demagogue posted a message on Mechanic RundownLinear is one thing, but a mechanic that excludes itself from play with other mechanics is far worse.Posted in: Demagogue Blog
As I was saying above, I do find things like Slivers boring, but I'm not exactly going to call them bad mechanics. Slivers can be played in non-Sliver decks which is the important part, and we've seen various Slivers pop up alone in various decks.
Infect, because of the secondary life total basically doesn't give you that option. You can't play 1-2 Infect creatures in your regular deck, as they end up making your deck inconsistent unless you focus on them specifically. There's no fun in finishing the game with your opponent at 2 life and 8 Poison counters while you're at 0 life.
Furthermore, it restricts what cards might see play as a whole in various formats. Phyrexian Crusader could have easily made a splash in Extended in various decks if he had Wither as opposed to Infect, but as it stands now you can't really play him in your Jund, Doran, etc builds, simply because he has Infect. Something being a Sliver has never stopped it from seeing play in various decks, but with Infect that's clearly the case.
So as I said, Infect isn't simply linear, it's exclusive to itself, meaning that you aren't simply compelled to play it in mass because of how it is, but rather you have no choice but to either play it in mass or not at all when it comes to constructed.
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Remember, don't think about the cards as much as the mechanic itself in an abstract sense, because I'm not discussing the power of a mechanic, rather the usages of it.
Now imagine if Wizards announced tomorrow that all creatures in the next set would be divided into "A" creatures and "B" creatures, and each player would have a different life total for "A" and "B" damage. What does this mean to you?
To me it means they're adding bloat to the game that literally restricts your ability to play cards of one type or another, as you can't be focusing on an "A" life total and a "B" life total without hampering your deck greatly. This is essentially what Infect is, it's a segregation of which creatures you can play with which other creatures.
This isn't the same as a tribal theme or whatever else, this is simply a segregation, because whether something is a Goblin, Sliver, or Contraption, it still deals "A" damage, like every other spell and creature. While on the other hand Infect deals "B" damage and just so happens to have Wither on all of its creatures.
See the difference between a linear and an exclusive mechanic? -
Dec 13, 2010Demagogue posted a message on Mechanic RundownI'd say Persist is a good mechanic that sits with Flash Back more so than Cycling or Dredge. It has a lot of uses and interactions but it's not quite an "engine" mechanic on the side like the other two.Posted in: Demagogue Blog
I'm sure I neglected to mention tons of mechanics, as this is mostly an explanation about why I think Infect is a bad mechanic, and as such I just listed a few off of the top of my head that I thought were general enough to get the point across.
I'd say most mechanics fall in the "Ok-ish" to "Good" range as it's rather hard to make a mechanic that simply cuts a colour apart like Infect does. -
Dec 13, 2010Demagogue posted a message on Mechanic RundownI'd like to start off by saying that I wasn't aware that blogs were so visible automatically when posted and I mostly threw this up here for my own benefit rather than a post I wanted to present as a sort of article.Posted in: Demagogue Blog
That being said I guess I should give a little prelude to this whole post. Basically this was a post I made in the Mirran/Phyrexian Crusader thread when I got tired of people repeating the same old phrase that "Infect hasn't been fully revealed yet, it can still be good in constructed!" when I said "Infect is bad for constructed". The difference being that a mechanic can be good in various formats but it doesn't mean it's good for the formats, as in it doesn't really contribute anything to them aside from itself and has little to no interaction with everything else. So this isn't about cards themselves as much as the general theory of various mechanics and how I view them in terms of what they can provide for a constructed format, and specifically Standard.
My issue with Infect isn't that it's very obvious and straight forward, as I don't mind Allies or Slivers, aside from the fact that they tend to be boring, but rather that it has no interaction and forces you to pretty much only play Infect. As in, Allies are obviously supposed to go with Allies but I can still play a Battlemaster as a 2/2 for 2 with various abilities in decks that don't really run other allies... Silvers are the same way, Harmonic Sliver is a solid utility creature first and a Sliver second. Infect however doesn't have this benefit as we can see from Phyrexian Crusader who instead of being a beastly aggro card becomes only playable in Infect and maybe as a sideboard card in UB to act as a wall, but because of Infect it can't really be an option as a maindeck card like it would be if it simply had Wither. In short, Infect doesn't only work as an overly simplified mechanic in terms of what it works well with, but it essentially cuts your creature options as you can't really focus on two different life totals. On top of all of this, once it's there, it's there, and you don't have ways of really doing much about it once it happens, thus making it a very onesided mechanic... It's just a pile of bad stuff.
Moving on, some one else brought up the Dredge issue, and while I agree that it's a controversial listing, but I think my reply to him is valid for this too:
Dredge was a really hard decision for me honestly. Originally I had Cycling in mind as the "Holy Grail" category all by itself simply because of how complex and simple it is at the same time.
The reason I included Dredge, even if it's usually more about Dredge with more Dredge, is because there are Dredge cards that are fine on their own. Just to give a few examples:
- Moldervine Cloak: It was great in UG control that pre-dated Scryb Force and ran things like Looter, Call, and so forth. It was a Tempo deck and the Cloak was great for simply a reusable enchantment that went on your Birds or Looter and allowed you to beat in. It also sometimes had the benefit of giving you a Call in the Yard so if you had six mana for some reason you could get two spells out of it... And it does have it's advantages over just running equipment, while also having disadvantages.
- Graveshell Scarab: It was a solid card with a very reasonable Dredge cost that basically replaced 1 card for 1 card. It also had the benefit of letting you draw cards in response to removal or damage stacking, and getting it back the next turn instead of risking a top deck. It was a tad overcosted though.
- Life from the Loam: This card is playable and it benefits itself via Dredge because it can get more targets into the yard while you Dredge it. More so it has great uses like in 42Lands.dec because it's massive card advantage when coupled with your Cycling lands.
- Necroplasm: This is a pretty good example of a card that's both an engine and a spell. In Solar Pox it helped get a Haakon or Fattie in the yard while also being cast in order to slow down aggro because it could blow up the board slowly or act as a simple blocker.
Cycling is still LEAGUES beyond any mechanic in my mind, but I felt like Dredge was both a good engine for many decks and still had enough playable cards in it to put it just above the "good" status. The biggest issue with Dredge is that it either has to be costed in such a way that milling could become an issue or the cards have to be slightly worse in one way or another if they have a low Dredge cost. Though that opens up the question of "Do you want this assured card, or risk a top deck" which is the case of the Scarab as it's slightly overcosted but also assures a specific draw... Though once again Flashback and Unearth make Dredge a little stronger because all of a sudden "Woops, Graveshell is now a 3/3 for 3 or itself."
I see your issue with Cycling, but what you have to understand other colours have better options than simply playing Cycling on its own. As things like Stoneforge, Hawk, Visionary, and so forth all offer up card advantage without too big of a tempo hit, while Cycling offers a minor tempo hit in exchange for a cantrip and nothing more. Blue still has the advantage because things like Ponder or Preordain aren't simply cantrips but allow you to dig or set up your draws.
Finally Cycling is generally printed in such a way that it's not simply superior to other cards of the same type, rather it's a "sidegrade" that opens up new options. The lands with Cycling weren't simply a land with Cycling but a land that came into play tapped and was non-basic, meaning that you had to make a choice of how much tempo you were willing to possibly give up in terms of playing these lands and how many of them you truly wanted... So really, Cycling makes slightly underpowered cards playable, while also opening up new tactics simply because of how many things Cycling actually does without most people realising it. Open the Vaults wasn't an incredibly broken deck despite having a huge amount of Cycling and not too much counters in the format, but it still used the discarding aspect of Cycling and the Cantrip to fuel its graveyard...
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Wither actually saw print on non-creature spells, such as Puncture Blast.
The reason I lump those mechanics together is that they're good but they aren't as interesting as Dredge or Cycling in terms of play. Of course, like everything they all need to be done in moderation, but I'm not opposed to seeing any of them showing up, although I'm not looking for ways to break them either when they do show up.
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Landfall existed before Landfall the keyword, it came out in Ravica in the form of a Treespeaker and Vinelasher. It can be interesting but at the same time it's a lot more restrictive than the simplistic mechanics mentioned above and it doesn't really allow as much interaction as Cycling and Dredge. It also pushes you into a certain direction more than Kicker, but not as much as to force you into a purely landfall deck.
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Affinity was a mechanic I liked, but mostly because Affinity was an Aggro-Combo deck that was incredibly interesting. However, as a whole Affinity was broken by the fact that Wizards wanted it to be playable and gave it a little too much support in one block. The artifact lands were actually the biggest problem in Affinity as not only did they fuel Ravager and Disciple but they basically produced 2 mana each for cards with Affinity. Cards like Forgmite, Enforcer, and Thought Cast aren't as good when your lands aren't producing 1U or 1R each for them and your Chrome Mox is also producing 2 mana.
Of course Affinity could still be ok if not for Disciple, Blast, and Ravager, but then it would be a little underpowered as a whole.
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Boy did I have a lot to say on this, maybe I should start submitting articles and calling them something silly like "Mana Myr Monday Material" xD. - To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
It doesn't actually have to work on MTGO the way it would in real life. The only reason it's drafted face up is to prevent cheating by swapping cards into a pack when you don't have a Cogwork Librarian but the pack has one. So on MTGO this isn't an issue because the software moderates the swapping itself.
Yes, you miss out on some information/signaling, but it still functions correctly.
I live in the North East, we actually have Sanctioned Vintage here at least once or twice a month that gets an ok turn out. The proxy events aren't bad either, we get a good 40+ people for those and the last one offered a Beta Time Vault for first, an Unlimited Mox Ruby for second and then cash for the other top 8 people, with only a 30$ entry. Realistically if I was willing to travel a bit more in my region I'd be able to play a Vintage tournament every weekend.
Who knows, maybe we're just more affluent around here, but I get to play plenty of Vintage and own some of the power that I play with. It's kind of funny though, since you do get the guys with fully powered decks playing with like proxied Wastelands or in my case my side board hard 3 proxied Propagandas.
Heck, you know what, here, watch me get owned on camera in some good old Sanctioned Vintage top 8: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ6uMTGVfWk&feature=youtu.be
No, not really. I'd say people like George R. R. Martin and J. R. R. Tolkien are both Green mages.
Look at what they did, they took history, tradition, and culture, and used that to create fictional worlds. Both of their works are actually deeply seeded in those things which are all green.
Green also has a lot of people who enjoy how to read, such as Reki, the History of Kamigawa who has the entire history tattooed on his body, he's a living book. Magus of the Library is also incredibly well read.
Well English is much more about lore and story telling, and I'd generally view a bard or storyteller as a Green character.
Theater on the other hand could go either way, it can be a very raw expression of emotion but it can also be more structured and about conveying a lesson than an expression. I'd say it could be in either camp, where Red gets the more energetic and performance based theater and Green gets the more story based theater.
No duh, the aura is a what makes the 1/1 and costs you a card... If the aura didn't have a value, or they could kill your guy without you getting any benefit, it would be a strict 1 for 2 in their favour. You get your benefits, you get your 1/1, but it's at the cost of a card, you're basically casting a better Bond Beetle. That still doesn't make it a 2 for 1.
Ok, so let's say I cast my 1WW flier, it's a 2/2... Next turn, I use it's monstrous Dragon Breath ability that makes me discard a card and pay 1R to make it have four power, my opponent kills it that turn or at some point later and it makes a 1/1 when it dies, have I achieved a 2 for 1?
Though realistically, let's face it, this card isn't just a 1R, for a 1/1, it's going to often times be a 1R for a 1/1 that has some ability. Is 1R for a 1/1 that says "Tap target creature, it doesn't untap during it's next untap phase" or "Target player loses 1 life and you gain 1 life" or "You get a 1/1 red human token" a bad thing? No... Is it a 2 for 1... No...
Yes, I get it's not a 1 for 1 directly, but it's only marginally better than one, and since when did we start classifying a Ghost Warden as a 2 for 1 because it pumped your dude?
Oh no! Better watch out, I played a Forest, now my Kird Ape gets +1/+2, and if you kill it, that's a 2 for 1 because I get to keep my Forest.
Don't believe me, look at what Jackie Lee wrote about this train wreck of a set: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10530
Zack Hill is a moron of the highest degree for making this vomit stain of a set...
Please don't flame people from within the Magic community, even if they might not be active users here.
-Sene
That being said, yes Rollicker is a very powerful bestow spell, it has a place in draft and it should be a decently high pick if you plan on going into that strategy.
That being said, it's really the best they could do, and until we perfect the Occulus Rift along with virtual reality, the online version of Magic will continue to be clunky.
This being said, I think I'll go to the FNM draft, after which someone bought a box for the players he enjoys drafting with the most as a holiday gift to draft for free and I'm one of those players, and then I'll do a Midnight prerelease. I have a fun night of endurance planned for me and I hope to get a few games of Vintage in between those draft/sealed events.
Also, Jhoira of the Ghitu is my waifu D:
In short, I don't want to play Magic where there's a life total A and a life total B. If Infect wasn't in the set, I'd probably love it completely.
I agree, Rollicker is pretty good if you get the deck for him, but I'd only first pick him if I was going to try to go for a very aggressive Heroic deck. I can see him being a fourth pick in some packs though.
The Griffin discussion is more about the card as a whole, seeing as I said I'd pick the Ornitharch over it, but I believed it was a closer than most suggested.
While I agree with you, and why I said Biology would be Green-Blue, as in the case of the Simic, if Green at all, I don't agree that Green doesn't study at all in a formal sense at times. Now and then Green does get a studious one like Magus of the Library probably studied a lot at what is formally a place of learning. He of course did it to learn history and preserve, not to innovate exactly.
Well that's not really true. Let's look at a few things, the first being that while the body is smaller than Hippogriff as a whole, the four toughness is actually relevant, seeing as it can now block a lot of cards without dying, such as the 3/4 Scry flier or even the Ornitharch. Additionally, Hipphogriff existed in a much faster format, with infect, and bounce wasn't as relevant as it is here where both Helix and Journey's End are rather good cards.
As for the enchantment creatures, are you telling me you've never hard cast a Nimbus Naiad, Leafcrown Dryad, or any other bestow card, without bestowing it? There are also just non-bestow Enchantment creatures now.
Also, am I just really misreading this card, but can't it bring back echantments that aren't creatures? In which case the Ordeals do exist, along with other enchantments like Viper's Kiss which aren't bad targets and I've Mendered up a Kiss every now and then. I don't know but Weight of the Underworld turn four into Dreamfinder turn five could really be back breaking for your opponent.
Edit: It's also usually going to be a divided five power, unless they have an obvious answer to a 5/5 flier. That's a pretty big difference seeing as all of a sudden a lot more card road block it or answer it. It's still a very solid card, and a high pick, but it's not just a 5/5 flier for 5.