Im not a huge fan of duress. I cant tell you how many times i've played it against an opponent where they have nothing but lands and creatures. Then my opponent just top decks a swords to plowshares, Its also a horrable card to top deck in the late game. Nihil Spellbomb is basically a must include in all black decks imho. Against The Mimeoplasm or Sharuum it will save your life. I can kinda agree with the simulacrum. I used to run 25ish creatures and i found the deck would just die a horrable death against aggro. The extra creatures just mean more come into play effects to abuse with Marchesa. Duplicant is a bit slow its just nice to be able to repeatedly exile stuff but ill probably replace him as you suggest. Maybe ill try Wurmcoil Engine instead.The signets are ok but i dont think i really need that much ramp. I dont really see what you dont like about Kira. Imo anything that keeps Marchesa from being hit by swords to plowshares or path in responce to a board wipe like Jokelhaups is good. Im running every card i can to protect marchesa for that reason. I can agree on Pilgrams eye, It just has some nice mana fixing on a come into play effect that can be abused with Marchesa. I can agree with Olivia, i've never really had her do much, usually my opponent kills her before she can go to crazy. The reason i use thrill kill is because its agruably the best unleash card out there, but i could definately be convinced to replace her.
Pupeteer clique has some fun synergy in marchesa. If you can get a counter on what he reanimates and then sac it to an outlet, you avoid the exile clause and get to keep what you re-animated. Plus the persist is nice when dropping that jokelhaups if you dont have marchesa out.
Edit: However that being said I just played against a deck with very few creatures and I had it in my hand with no targets in my opponents graveyard. I think considering how many control decks out there that run very few creatures like Thrax, Tasigur and Narset ill take Puppeteer Clique out
@ Isawa_Chuckles Turn 4 u play both your 4th land THEN the dragon
Edit: i see what you mean now, but i dont know about that. If you play it alongside cards like the new liliana and have each player discard a card then you can at least gain a small advantage there. Im still thinking more along the lines of modern where u can use raven's crime to get rid of any extra lands before discarding them. This enables you to have enough lands to consistantly play him turn 4 and not waist any extra lands
What part of draw 2 cards a turn do you haters not like. Think modern and crazy aggro like RDW. Many of these decks are topdecking turn 4 or 5 and have run out of steam. This is a 4/4 flyer for 4 that draws u 2 cards a turn... as long as you play him when he is the last card in your hand and you play both cards you draw before the end of your next turn there is no drawback. In black red you could pull off some fun hellbent mechancs alongside lily of the veil, smallpox, raven's crime, keldon megaliths and demonfire. In standard i could see him in a BR dragon deck like Jund or Mardu alongside Dragonlord kolaghan, Thunderbreak Regent, anger of the gods, magma jet, thoughtseize and lightning strike.
what do you think? it sounds like you would probably use Mikeaus over duplicant and sidisi or living death over something. Sidisi i can definitely get behind but im not sure about Mikeaus or Living Death. the question I have for you is how impactful is Mikeaus really? My concern is he will be killed/exiled the second he hits the board and he wont be able to do much. Its also a shame that he doesn't give Marchesa undying. I also wonder how often undying even gets to trigger considering marchesa will be giving everything counters before mikeaus even hits the field. As for Living death, my playgroup loves to play lots of graveyard hate so i dont think living death will get to return anything, I'm also worried about playing it against reanimator decks like Karador or Sharuum that might gain a larger advantage then myself when played. Do you find the concerns i have brought up to be a problem? Also what is your opinion on Shadowborn Demon and Duplicant?
Also, why Scourge of the Throne? I never really liked that card for duels and never really understood why so many people like it. Is there some hidden synergy i dont realize?
@theonecalledrune I would appreciate it if you would check it out as well.
I have been working on this decklist since the day i first saw her spoiled in Conspiracy. She is a work in progress and i am constantly changing cards in and out of the deck. I am hoping to use this thread as a way for players better then myself to give me some constructive criticism to perfect the list.
Deck Philosophy:
I am a deckbuilder at heart. I almost like building them more then actually playing them and Marchesa is the ultimate deckbuilders challenge (at least in duel commander she is). She has two extreamly powerful yet awkwardly situational abilities that make the deckbuilding process challenging. Giving all your creatures dethrone and the nature of dethrone is where the main difficulty lies. On one hand giving creatures +1/+1 counters makes you want to build towards a more agressive strategy (similariy to Drana, Liberator of Malakir) yet on the other hand an agressive strategy means you will likely have more life then your opponent and dethrone won't trigger as often (if at all). Another problem this creates is without at least one dethrone trigger Marchesa's second ability becomes irellivant. Fortunately there are a couple ways to remedy these problems. A) We have access to Black and its multitude of suicidal cards that require life as an additional payment or as a side effect. It sounds crazy but you want to hurt yourself enough to be both agressive and able to reliably trigger dethrone at the same time. B) We can use creatures that generate their own counters like Drana, Liberator of Malakir or Taurean Mauler to keep marchesa's second ability relevent even if we have more life then our opponent.
Another direction you could take the deck is to focus more on Marchesa's second ability to recur creatures in and out of the GY taking advantage of ETB effects like Snapcaster Mage and Vendillion Clique or LTB effects like Fulminator Mage and Corpse Augur. This is what the multiplayer marchesa decklists love to do and it can be powerful BUT you have to be very careful when attempting to build this direction in Duel Commander. The meta won't allow you enough time or give you permission to set up all the required pieces that enable creatures to blink in and out of play reliably (this is mainly because the meta has more draw go control decks). I recommend limiting the etb/ltb creatures to only the best of the best that way if you can't set everything up properly you're not stuck with a bunch of meh creatures that are underwhelming on their own.
I have pushed marchesa in many different directions like combo, midrange and aggro. personally I have had the most success with Aggro. Aggro in DC might sound crazy but Marchesa pulls it off.
Thanks for the decklist.I have been working on a marchesa decklist for a while now and there are a few cards you are using that i overlooked that might be the answers i've been looking for.
@yujipooji, wow i really appreciate all the effort and thought that you put into your response, i wasnt expecting anything that long and detailed. I should have specified that i don't actually go by french rules. I use the regular rules and just play 1v1 matches but your help is still very relevant. Maybe i'll make a decklist and post it and you can see what you think. Thanks for the detailed responce.
Its a good card, but 4 Black can be tricky to pull off in a 3 colour deck. Although if you can somehow manage to get him to stick around he's great politically as a blocker for multiplayer.
I have also been in love with Marchesa since the first day I saw her spoiled. I have been working (mainly struggling) on a competitive duals version of her since the day i could get hands on a copy. My best friend has an extreamly fast and dangerous Rafiq deck that tends to defeat Marchesa more often then not and I was wondering if you had any suggestions for more dual oriented cards that you may have excluded for political reasons. I saw you mentioned Jokelhaups was in your deck but you took it out because your opponents just scooped in frusteration, thats the kind of thing that you can get away with in duals. Any other cards you would reccomend for duals?
I think we can all agree that playing this card would be a Dangerous Wager
Edit: However that being said I just played against a deck with very few creatures and I had it in my hand with no targets in my opponents graveyard. I think considering how many control decks out there that run very few creatures like Thrax, Tasigur and Narset ill take Puppeteer Clique out
Edit: i see what you mean now, but i dont know about that. If you play it alongside cards like the new liliana and have each player discard a card then you can at least gain a small advantage there. Im still thinking more along the lines of modern where u can use raven's crime to get rid of any extra lands before discarding them. This enables you to have enough lands to consistantly play him turn 4 and not waist any extra lands
He is niche, but he is good.
5 Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
5 Puppeteer Clique
5 Shadowborn Demon
5 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
6 Duplicant
6 Flayer of the Hatebound
6 Jokulhaups
what do you think? it sounds like you would probably use Mikeaus over duplicant and sidisi or living death over something. Sidisi i can definitely get behind but im not sure about Mikeaus or Living Death. the question I have for you is how impactful is Mikeaus really? My concern is he will be killed/exiled the second he hits the board and he wont be able to do much. Its also a shame that he doesn't give Marchesa undying. I also wonder how often undying even gets to trigger considering marchesa will be giving everything counters before mikeaus even hits the field. As for Living death, my playgroup loves to play lots of graveyard hate so i dont think living death will get to return anything, I'm also worried about playing it against reanimator decks like Karador or Sharuum that might gain a larger advantage then myself when played. Do you find the concerns i have brought up to be a problem? Also what is your opinion on Shadowborn Demon and Duplicant?
Also, why Scourge of the Throne? I never really liked that card for duels and never really understood why so many people like it. Is there some hidden synergy i dont realize?
@theonecalledrune I would appreciate it if you would check it out as well.
Deck Philosophy:
I am a deckbuilder at heart. I almost like building them more then actually playing them and Marchesa is the ultimate deckbuilders challenge (at least in duel commander she is). She has two extreamly powerful yet awkwardly situational abilities that make the deckbuilding process challenging. Giving all your creatures dethrone and the nature of dethrone is where the main difficulty lies. On one hand giving creatures +1/+1 counters makes you want to build towards a more agressive strategy (similariy to Drana, Liberator of Malakir) yet on the other hand an agressive strategy means you will likely have more life then your opponent and dethrone won't trigger as often (if at all). Another problem this creates is without at least one dethrone trigger Marchesa's second ability becomes irellivant. Fortunately there are a couple ways to remedy these problems. A) We have access to Black and its multitude of suicidal cards that require life as an additional payment or as a side effect. It sounds crazy but you want to hurt yourself enough to be both agressive and able to reliably trigger dethrone at the same time. B) We can use creatures that generate their own counters like Drana, Liberator of Malakir or Taurean Mauler to keep marchesa's second ability relevent even if we have more life then our opponent.
Another direction you could take the deck is to focus more on Marchesa's second ability to recur creatures in and out of the GY taking advantage of ETB effects like Snapcaster Mage and Vendillion Clique or LTB effects like Fulminator Mage and Corpse Augur. This is what the multiplayer marchesa decklists love to do and it can be powerful BUT you have to be very careful when attempting to build this direction in Duel Commander. The meta won't allow you enough time or give you permission to set up all the required pieces that enable creatures to blink in and out of play reliably (this is mainly because the meta has more draw go control decks). I recommend limiting the etb/ltb creatures to only the best of the best that way if you can't set everything up properly you're not stuck with a bunch of meh creatures that are underwhelming on their own.
I have pushed marchesa in many different directions like combo, midrange and aggro. personally I have had the most success with Aggro. Aggro in DC might sound crazy but Marchesa pulls it off.
4 Marchesa, the Black Rose
Lands (39)
0 Ancient Ziggurat
0 Arid Mesa
0 Badlands
0 Blackcleave Cliffs
0 Blighted Fen
0 Blood Crypt
0 Bloodstained Mire
0 Cascade Bluffs
0 Cavern of Souls
0 City of Brass
0 Command Tower
0 Contested War Zone
0 Creeping Tar Pit
0 Darkslick Shores
0 Flooded Strand
0 Graven Cairns
0 High Market
0 Island
0 Mana Confluence
0 Marsh Flats
0 Misty Rainforest
0 Mountain
0 Phyrexian Tower
0 Polluted Delta
0 Scalding Tarn
0 Shivan Reef
0 Steam Vents
0 Sulfurous Springs
0 Sunken Ruins
0 Swamp
0 Tarnished Citadel
0 Underground River
0 Underground Sea
0 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
0 Verdant Catacombs
0 Volcanic Island
0 Wasteland
0 Watery Grave
0 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodsoaked Champion
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Carnophage
1 Cloudfin Raptor
1 Cursecatcher
1 Diregraf Ghoul
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Goblin Guide
1 Phantasmal Bear
1 Rakdos Cackler
1 Vampire Lacerator
1 Zurgo Bellstriker
2 Baleful Strix
2 Bloodghast
2 Dark Confidant
2 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Flesh Reaver
2 Gore-House Chainwalker
2 Oona's Blackguard
2 Oona's Prowler
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Stormblood Berserker
2 War-Name Aspirant
3 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
3 Mardu Strike Leader
3 Olivia, Mobilized for War
3 Scab-Clan Berserker
3 Sedraxis Specter
3 Sin Prodder
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
4 Hellrider
4 Hero of Oxid Ridge
4 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Burning Spear
2 Incinerate
2 Lightning Strike
3 Fire Covenant
3 Kolaghan's Command
8 Dig Through Time
Sorceries (9)
1 Chain Lightning
1 Duress
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Inquisition of Kosilek
1 Thoughtseize
2 Sinkhole
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Painful Truths
8 Treasure Cruise
Enchantments (2)
2 Bitterblossom
3 Spellshock
Artifacts (3)
1 Skullclamp
2 Captain's Claws
3 Grafted Wargear
Planeswalkers (1)
3 Liliana of the Veil
I would love to see other peoples (duel commander) marchesa decks so please post some lists. It gives me inspiration!
If you want you can look at my decklist if you need any inspiration. I would appreciate any suggestions you may have as well. http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/forum-1-vs-1-commander-decklists/611992-marchesa-the-black-rose-1v1-commander#c1