Ill just have to take your word on stifle. I'll see if i can get my hands on a copy and try it out. I see its usefulness against sac lands and the RARE walker ultimate, but otherwise i see it as a 1 for 0 just like bounce.
As for blackguard i dont even use bitterblossum and i have 0 roguee in the deck. 1 when i add in True Name Nemesis. Its a combo piece that relys on Marchesa to put counters on creatures. Trust me I have tested it. When it goes off its great, when it doesnt it does nothing. Maybe this is a playstyle difference between you and I. I prefer cards that dont require my general to be good. They should be good on there own and your general should just make them better.
On a side note, should I be running bitterblossum? I have seen other lists running it. I just dont know what to take out for it. Its a solid card, i just hate when it kills you lol.
What is your opinion on mana rocks? Im tempted to just take out all of my artifacts including the lightning greaves to fit in all these counters i need to add.
Ya, the larget problem i have had in the past with using to much stuff like Oona's Blackguard (which blatently says that without marchesa giving +1/+1 counters this card is complete garbage) is Meddling Mage and Nevermore. I find i like playing cards that are still good on their own even if you dont have your general in play. I have the same problem with Thought Gorger. Its really only good in marchesa because she can give more counters making u draw more then discard.
Also my question about non creature spells wasnt really what should they be and more about how many of each category should i have. Also when u look at my decklist, what would you take out for these cards your sugget.
Im still not sold on stifle. My problem with it and Trickbind is how I look at it. Ultimately its a 1 for 0. Just like "bounce" effects are (which im not a fan of eithor). You spend 1 card to temporarily slow an opponent a turn and you just delay the enevitable. Shadow of doubt however is amazing and i will add it to the list. Its basically a 0 for 1 because u permanently screw them a tutor or fetch land while you draw a card.
Im trying to fit in most of your suggestions but i dont know what to take out to do it. Could you look at my list and tell me what you think i should axe for cards your suggesting? Just remember i insist on at LEAST 30 creatures.
Cryptic command is amazing, i'm not going to debate that. But when running 3 colors i find the tripple blue on a 4 cost kinda hard to pull off sometimes and thats why I dont run it. The same logic applies to Grave Pact. Do you guys ever find that to be a problem? TBH i havent actually tried it in the deck, i've just had that problem in other tri-coloured decks i've had in the past.
I'm really appreciating that last post. Im gonna add in a few of those counters you mentioned.
I have personally found that the deck likes having around 33 creatures (1/3 of the deck) give or take a couple cards. I used to run 25 but i found a significant improvement in performance when i bumped it up to over 30. Taking the 37 lands into consideration that leaves 29 slots for non-land/ non-creature spells. In your opinion 3drinks, what should those 29 look like? How many counters; mana ramp; card draw; targeted creature removal; artifact removal; board wipes; combo pieces (like Unspeakable Symbol); planeswalkers should i run?
You mentioned a card named adamant negation? Is that a card or did u mean pact of negation?
I like a bunch of the counters you mentioned and most of them have made their way in and out of the deck over the last couple years. As I said previously the deck needs at LEAST 30 creatures minimum (you just going to have to take me for my word on that one). I like 33. So if i'm going to have 15 counterspells that leaves me with 14 (17 if i go down to 30 creatures which is as low as I would consider slots for other cards like Jokelhaups, unspeakable symbol, board wipes etc. What should I take out for all these counters?
Also i can gladly report that so far Lightning Mauler was a success. I only played one match with him but i was able to drop him turn 3, marchesa turn 4 and give her haste. Then i sac'd him to the carrion feeder i droped turn 1 to exile him and bring him back unpaired at the end of my opponents turn to give Fulminator Mage haste next turn. Idk if it will always be that sweet but so far so good.
@LeaPlath, thanks for the advice. I have seen a couple lists now that run cursecatcher like creatures. My only concern with them is you dont see a lot of people rocking cards like that in other EDH decklists meaning they are only good if Marchesa is in play. Do you find in playtesting they do really well or is it only a good card in the early game and horrable in the late? Does anyone else vouch for these creatures? I have seen Spiketail Hatchling on another decklist as well.
Woah, just checked the thread and u guys have been busy helping me out, thank you both so much. I will try my best to address my opinions on the cards you're reccomending.
First things first. Marchesa, while amazing is often not on the field. Smart opponents deal with her asap. I am going to refrain from using any card that is ONLY amazing when the perfect combo is set up (marchesa + sac outlet + counters + creatures that abuse the recursion) and without the set-up is lackluster on its own.
Secondly while Sygg is an extremely powerful tempo commander, the way they gain the tempo advantage and play is pretty different. Sygg draws you a LOT of cards and those cards can be any card type so loading the deck with sorceries and instants is more viable then Marchesa. Marchesa gains tempo by making creatures more difficult to eliminate and by re-triggering come into play effects. Creatures with enters the battlefield or leaves the battlefield is what Marchesa NEEDS so the deck needs to be extreamly creature heavy. Karador is a good example of a general who is "creature-centric" his abilities like marchesa's require creatures and because of this most of the karador decks that are winning the 3 star tournaments are running close to 50 creatures with less then 20 non-creature spells. Now i realize that as a red/blue player i wont be able to do such an extreme ratio, however i will try to put in as many creatures as i'm able to get away with as i can.
Avalanche Riders: I have actually considered this card before and it's powerful. I will re-consider using it again. What does Fulminator Mage do for me that the Riders doesn't you ask? well is 1 mana cheaper to start. It curves nicely into marchesa playing it turn 3 then playing her turn 4, swing with the mage, get dethrone then sac after combat to blow up a land, then he comes back and you can either blow up a second land or wait till next turn to get another counter on him before sacking again. the problem with echo is you cant wait to play marchesa the turn after, in order to recycle the effect you HAVE to have marchesa out on your next upkeep or you just get 1 land. Again its not that hes a bad card, its just the mage is better.
Unspeakable Symbol another awesome card IF marchesa is out and havin fun, but its pretty underwhelming if your opponent is able keep Marchesa at bay. That being said it is a staple so i will give it another try. I dont have room for both this and the Arena so i will take Yuji's advice and replace it with the symbol.
Stifle: a really good card but i still think its more of a classic control card then an aggro or midrange one. Also i think you may be over-estimating it. You can only counter activated/triggered abilities, not spells, you cant counter stone rain or time walk with it. It simply stalls an ability for one turn. I find it a bit underwhelming tbh but a lot of pro's use it so i guess i should try it.
Fervor/Mass Hysteria: Good cards but not creatures. I would rather see 3 creatures in my opening hand over one creature, a fervor and an unspeakable symbol. if you don't have any creatures in your opening hand because its full of counters, removal and enchantments then marchesa cant do her job keeping all those creatures you were supposed to play turn 1-3 alive and recycling their abilities with sac outlets. I realize that solrune's list is geared towards multiplayer but he really does have the right idea. I know he agree's that you want to stuff as many creatures into the deck as possible.
Thought Gorger: I dont get it...why would I run him over another creature with large stats like abyssal persecutor? if you're in topdeck mode he doesn't get any counters. Early game he gets rid of your hand so your counters that you need to prevent your opponents from going off or ruining your board position are gone. what am i not seeing that you are?
Yuji, i do run 37 lands, idk why u thought i was running 34. Maybe you weren't counting that there are 2 of each basic land?
3Drinks. Im not running any x cost counters so im not sure what you meant there. Unless u mean counter unless they pay x but even then im only running the one mana leak.
all those tutors and card draw you want me to run like read the bones is good but again A) not creatures B) if you go to overboard with them you end up drawing into more card draw. I'm running 10 card advantage cards as it is, any more is a bit overkill.
Stormbreath Dragon/True-Name Nemesis: both amazingly solid cards. I have debated using them time and time again. I will try to find a spot to put them back in. The only reason i took them out is because i didn't know what else to take out to fit them in. When push came to shove i decided that because they don't really synergize with marchesa particularly well i took them out for stuff that do.
Winter Orb is an interesting Idea but idk if this is the type of deck is accels in or not. My gut reaction thinks that you would want to run green and have a lot of mana dorks like lanowar elves so that you dont punish yourself as well.
Shadow of Doubt: it seems like a cheaper more situational exclude that targets tutors instead of creatures.I believe this is meant to chill in your hand with a bunch of other counterspells like exclude and negate and you just choose the correct counter based on what your opponent casts. I dont think this strategy works very well when your tapping out often to play your creature spells.
Yuji, I hope you dont think im just being a dick shooting down all your idea's. I'm just trying to express that my deck's general strategy works, it just needs slight perfecting here and there. Maybe a couple more counters, maybe more or less ramp, maybe the curve could be a bit more efficient.
3Drinks, its really nice to see a new person on here. I appreciate your time and input!
Im not a huge fan of the phyrexian alter. I tried it, Ashnod's Alter and Goblin Bombardment and found that they all to do nothing for you if you dont have Marchesa out. As I said before i think you want to maximize your creatures turning sideways over having cards that just sit there on the field not even able to block.
I guess the concern i have with the covenant is just the sheer ammount of life you have to pay to wipe the board. If they have 2 5/5's and your at 10 life about the lose the game you dont want fire covenent to be in your hand. For example... Sharuum reanimates a magister sphinx. Another thing i dont like about the covenant is it's targeted damage and and anything with protection from black/red, shroud or hexproof will laugh in its face.
Im sorry if I keep bringing Sharuum and Rafiq into my example's. My friend pilots those 2 edh dual decks and we play almost every day on our lunch break where we work. Thats where 95% of my playtest info comes from.
Anyway, his rafiq deck can reliably kill you turn 6 if you lack blockers. Turns 4 or 5 if he's lucky. I found that stuff that just sits on the field doing nothing on its own, waiting to be part of a synergy is a great way for rafiq to ruin you. At least the connoisseur can chump block if your desperate. I realize its not the best card in the game but if you really need a sac outlet its not bad.
And seriously, i personally believe Kolaghans command is the best thing to happen in black red for a long time. Unlike the rakdos charm you get 2 choices making it an amazing 2 for one. I often find myself killing both a sword and a small creature like a mana dude with it. Worst case scenario its a lesser instant blightning doing 2 damage to your opponents face and making them discard a card. Discard is my Jam, and instant speed discard is VERY rare. Making an opponent discard a card at the end of their draw phase when they are in topdeck mode is awesome because you deny them of anything thats not instant speed.
Im not sold on the Ogre Battledriver yet eithor. I just saw someone suggest him on Solrune's thread and thought i would try him out. Its interesting to note that him and the flayer of the hatebound have a small synergy.
Another 4 drop I have had in and out of the deck is Abyssal Persecutor kinda nice considering all the sac outlets. Thoughts?
Ok, so i edited the deck today taking a lot of your recommendations into account. I added in Bojuka Bog over Nihil Spellbomb. Added in Cavern of Souls, Hall of the Bandit Lord. I figured with all these interesting lands that Tolaria West would be a good idea as well. Because you said I needed more sac outlets (which i have found as well through testing) I put Viscera Seer, Bloodflow Connoiseur and Dimir House Guard, the latter also because you said i need more tutors so he is kind of a 2 for 1. Because of your recommendation for more haste i put in Lightning Mauler and Ogre Battledriver. Other random cards i put in via your suggestions are Xiahou Dun, Sakashima, Remand and Duress. I also Increased the Mana Rocks to 6 as you recommended adding in Expedition Map, Coldsteel Heart, Dimir Signet and Rakdos Signet. Now one thing I'm tempted to do is Revert the Signets back to a Pilgrim's Eye and a Trinket Mage (which tutors for Great Furnace, Seat of the Synod and Vault of Whispers). You may disagree, but i think a lot of the other Marchesa Deck users like Solrune will agree with me that the more creatures you have turning sideways the better. What do you think of both the newer edited deck list and turning the signets into creatures? It sounds like you (yujipooji) have a lot more experience then me at actual dual tournaments so i really value your input.
I'm actually starting to dial back on the unleash creatures after a lot of your recommendations. I think Solrune has the right idea with lots of come into play effects. If i have time ill edit the decklist this weekend taking into consideration all of your help. I've never actually tried the bloodthirst creatures, they just always seemed underwhelming to me. Idk maybe ill try em someday, they just seem a bit to situational for my liking. Im not yet convinced with Sakashima but since you like it so much and theonecalledrune uses it, I will at least try it out and see how I like it in practice.
Those are some good recommendations. Believe it or not i was using both stormbreath and thundermaw hellkite, and took them out to try the puppeteer clique and the demon. Ill probably put the stormbreath back as you said. I'm not 100% certain on the cackler but I think its worth testing as you said so ill give it a shot and see how it does. I used to run the nightscape familiar and its not bad, the only thing i didnt like was how often it was useless on colourless, mono black and spells with no converted mana cost like rakdos charm; crosis charm; terminate. Due to how often I found his ability useless I took him out. But as the deck changes if I run more spells his abilaty would discount then I would add him back in. Xiahou Dun, Definitely worth testing. I always thought he was a $100 card but now I see the promo goes for $50 and that's more affordable. As for Martin Stromgald, I see a few other decks using him but to be honest I don't understand why anyone would run him over Hero of Oxid Ridge doesn't he basically outclass him? Maybe I'm undervaluing the blocking buff?
Thalakos Deceiver: This exists?!?! I will find a place for it. I'll also see if I can find some more Haste outlets to add in. What creatures would you recommend using that would give haste? I have debated using Lightning Mauler what do you think? I really appreciate the time your putting into helping me out, I can just feel the deck getting better.
I used to run this deck a lot closer to the deck your describing, almost exactly as you describe it and i found it lost more then won. The problem i have with marchesa as a control deck is it wont beat other faster aggro decks period. Decks like Rafiq will kill you before you can even bat an eyelid, especually with her massichistic nature. I have basically learned that marchesa needs to lean a bit closer to midrange. My deck is more about using her second abilaty to out tempo aggro decks rather then out damage them. Basically im trying to throw out 4-5 creatures with +1/+1 counters on them, then blow up the board with a board wipe, hopefully hurting aggro far more then i hurt myself. Im not as big a fan of dealing crazy ammounts of damage to myself so sometimes i dont get +1/+1 counters from dethrone. Thata why i like using arcbound stinger. He is also nice because he can block creatures strapped to a sword every turn if you can protect marchesa well. Im not convinced this deck needs that drastic of a change, i feel like my current list is close and just needs to be tweeked here and there. Perhaps over time it will evolve into what your describing, but currently its more of a "synergy machine"
Turn 1: play 1 land and a spell= 5 cards in hand
Turn 2: draw a card and play another land and and 2 spells = 3 cards in hand
Turn 3: draw a card, play a third land and 2 spells = 1 card in hand
Turn 4: draw a card, play a fourth land and the dragon = 0 cards in hand.
This would need to be a deck that is trying to go off super fast anyway and doesn't suffer for the lack of cards in hand anyway. The dragon would be a nice top deck to keep up the pressure.
This may seem rediculous but if you add some mana dudes its possible in standard
In Modern this type of curve happens more often then you might think.
As for blackguard i dont even use bitterblossum and i have 0 roguee in the deck. 1 when i add in True Name Nemesis. Its a combo piece that relys on Marchesa to put counters on creatures. Trust me I have tested it. When it goes off its great, when it doesnt it does nothing. Maybe this is a playstyle difference between you and I. I prefer cards that dont require my general to be good. They should be good on there own and your general should just make them better.
On a side note, should I be running bitterblossum? I have seen other lists running it. I just dont know what to take out for it. Its a solid card, i just hate when it kills you lol.
What is your opinion on mana rocks? Im tempted to just take out all of my artifacts including the lightning greaves to fit in all these counters i need to add.
Also my question about non creature spells wasnt really what should they be and more about how many of each category should i have. Also when u look at my decklist, what would you take out for these cards your sugget.
Im still not sold on stifle. My problem with it and Trickbind is how I look at it. Ultimately its a 1 for 0. Just like "bounce" effects are (which im not a fan of eithor). You spend 1 card to temporarily slow an opponent a turn and you just delay the enevitable. Shadow of doubt however is amazing and i will add it to the list. Its basically a 0 for 1 because u permanently screw them a tutor or fetch land while you draw a card.
Im trying to fit in most of your suggestions but i dont know what to take out to do it. Could you look at my list and tell me what you think i should axe for cards your suggesting? Just remember i insist on at LEAST 30 creatures.
I'm really appreciating that last post. Im gonna add in a few of those counters you mentioned.
I have personally found that the deck likes having around 33 creatures (1/3 of the deck) give or take a couple cards. I used to run 25 but i found a significant improvement in performance when i bumped it up to over 30. Taking the 37 lands into consideration that leaves 29 slots for non-land/ non-creature spells. In your opinion 3drinks, what should those 29 look like? How many counters; mana ramp; card draw; targeted creature removal; artifact removal; board wipes; combo pieces (like Unspeakable Symbol); planeswalkers should i run?
You mentioned a card named adamant negation? Is that a card or did u mean pact of negation?
I like a bunch of the counters you mentioned and most of them have made their way in and out of the deck over the last couple years. As I said previously the deck needs at LEAST 30 creatures minimum (you just going to have to take me for my word on that one). I like 33. So if i'm going to have 15 counterspells that leaves me with 14 (17 if i go down to 30 creatures which is as low as I would consider slots for other cards like Jokelhaups, unspeakable symbol, board wipes etc. What should I take out for all these counters?
First things first. Marchesa, while amazing is often not on the field. Smart opponents deal with her asap. I am going to refrain from using any card that is ONLY amazing when the perfect combo is set up (marchesa + sac outlet + counters + creatures that abuse the recursion) and without the set-up is lackluster on its own.
Secondly while Sygg is an extremely powerful tempo commander, the way they gain the tempo advantage and play is pretty different. Sygg draws you a LOT of cards and those cards can be any card type so loading the deck with sorceries and instants is more viable then Marchesa. Marchesa gains tempo by making creatures more difficult to eliminate and by re-triggering come into play effects. Creatures with enters the battlefield or leaves the battlefield is what Marchesa NEEDS so the deck needs to be extreamly creature heavy. Karador is a good example of a general who is "creature-centric" his abilities like marchesa's require creatures and because of this most of the karador decks that are winning the 3 star tournaments are running close to 50 creatures with less then 20 non-creature spells. Now i realize that as a red/blue player i wont be able to do such an extreme ratio, however i will try to put in as many creatures as i'm able to get away with as i can.
Avalanche Riders: I have actually considered this card before and it's powerful. I will re-consider using it again. What does Fulminator Mage do for me that the Riders doesn't you ask? well is 1 mana cheaper to start. It curves nicely into marchesa playing it turn 3 then playing her turn 4, swing with the mage, get dethrone then sac after combat to blow up a land, then he comes back and you can either blow up a second land or wait till next turn to get another counter on him before sacking again. the problem with echo is you cant wait to play marchesa the turn after, in order to recycle the effect you HAVE to have marchesa out on your next upkeep or you just get 1 land. Again its not that hes a bad card, its just the mage is better.
Unspeakable Symbol another awesome card IF marchesa is out and havin fun, but its pretty underwhelming if your opponent is able keep Marchesa at bay. That being said it is a staple so i will give it another try. I dont have room for both this and the Arena so i will take Yuji's advice and replace it with the symbol.
Stifle: a really good card but i still think its more of a classic control card then an aggro or midrange one. Also i think you may be over-estimating it. You can only counter activated/triggered abilities, not spells, you cant counter stone rain or time walk with it. It simply stalls an ability for one turn. I find it a bit underwhelming tbh but a lot of pro's use it so i guess i should try it.
Fervor/Mass Hysteria: Good cards but not creatures. I would rather see 3 creatures in my opening hand over one creature, a fervor and an unspeakable symbol. if you don't have any creatures in your opening hand because its full of counters, removal and enchantments then marchesa cant do her job keeping all those creatures you were supposed to play turn 1-3 alive and recycling their abilities with sac outlets. I realize that solrune's list is geared towards multiplayer but he really does have the right idea. I know he agree's that you want to stuff as many creatures into the deck as possible.
Thought Gorger: I dont get it...why would I run him over another creature with large stats like abyssal persecutor? if you're in topdeck mode he doesn't get any counters. Early game he gets rid of your hand so your counters that you need to prevent your opponents from going off or ruining your board position are gone. what am i not seeing that you are?
Yuji, i do run 37 lands, idk why u thought i was running 34. Maybe you weren't counting that there are 2 of each basic land?
3Drinks. Im not running any x cost counters so im not sure what you meant there. Unless u mean counter unless they pay x but even then im only running the one mana leak.
all those tutors and card draw you want me to run like read the bones is good but again A) not creatures B) if you go to overboard with them you end up drawing into more card draw. I'm running 10 card advantage cards as it is, any more is a bit overkill.
Stormbreath Dragon/True-Name Nemesis: both amazingly solid cards. I have debated using them time and time again. I will try to find a spot to put them back in. The only reason i took them out is because i didn't know what else to take out to fit them in. When push came to shove i decided that because they don't really synergize with marchesa particularly well i took them out for stuff that do.
Winter Orb is an interesting Idea but idk if this is the type of deck is accels in or not. My gut reaction thinks that you would want to run green and have a lot of mana dorks like lanowar elves so that you dont punish yourself as well.
Shadow of Doubt: it seems like a cheaper more situational exclude that targets tutors instead of creatures.I believe this is meant to chill in your hand with a bunch of other counterspells like exclude and negate and you just choose the correct counter based on what your opponent casts. I dont think this strategy works very well when your tapping out often to play your creature spells.
Yuji, I hope you dont think im just being a dick shooting down all your idea's. I'm just trying to express that my deck's general strategy works, it just needs slight perfecting here and there. Maybe a couple more counters, maybe more or less ramp, maybe the curve could be a bit more efficient.
3Drinks, its really nice to see a new person on here. I appreciate your time and input!
I guess the concern i have with the covenant is just the sheer ammount of life you have to pay to wipe the board. If they have 2 5/5's and your at 10 life about the lose the game you dont want fire covenent to be in your hand. For example... Sharuum reanimates a magister sphinx. Another thing i dont like about the covenant is it's targeted damage and and anything with protection from black/red, shroud or hexproof will laugh in its face.
Im sorry if I keep bringing Sharuum and Rafiq into my example's. My friend pilots those 2 edh dual decks and we play almost every day on our lunch break where we work. Thats where 95% of my playtest info comes from.
Anyway, his rafiq deck can reliably kill you turn 6 if you lack blockers. Turns 4 or 5 if he's lucky. I found that stuff that just sits on the field doing nothing on its own, waiting to be part of a synergy is a great way for rafiq to ruin you. At least the connoisseur can chump block if your desperate. I realize its not the best card in the game but if you really need a sac outlet its not bad.
And seriously, i personally believe Kolaghans command is the best thing to happen in black red for a long time. Unlike the rakdos charm you get 2 choices making it an amazing 2 for one. I often find myself killing both a sword and a small creature like a mana dude with it. Worst case scenario its a lesser instant blightning doing 2 damage to your opponents face and making them discard a card. Discard is my Jam, and instant speed discard is VERY rare. Making an opponent discard a card at the end of their draw phase when they are in topdeck mode is awesome because you deny them of anything thats not instant speed.
Im not sold on the Ogre Battledriver yet eithor. I just saw someone suggest him on Solrune's thread and thought i would try him out. Its interesting to note that him and the flayer of the hatebound have a small synergy.
Another 4 drop I have had in and out of the deck is Abyssal Persecutor kinda nice considering all the sac outlets. Thoughts?
Thalakos Deceiver: This exists?!?! I will find a place for it. I'll also see if I can find some more Haste outlets to add in. What creatures would you recommend using that would give haste? I have debated using Lightning Mauler what do you think? I really appreciate the time your putting into helping me out, I can just feel the deck getting better.
You make a good point. 4 may be to expensive for this type of strategy. I'm just saying somone might be able to pull it off.
Turn 1: play 1 land and a spell= 5 cards in hand
Turn 2: draw a card and play another land and and 2 spells = 3 cards in hand
Turn 3: draw a card, play a third land and 2 spells = 1 card in hand
Turn 4: draw a card, play a fourth land and the dragon = 0 cards in hand.
This would need to be a deck that is trying to go off super fast anyway and doesn't suffer for the lack of cards in hand anyway. The dragon would be a nice top deck to keep up the pressure.
This may seem rediculous but if you add some mana dudes its possible in standard
In Modern this type of curve happens more often then you might think.