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  • posted a message on Burn
    Quote from schweinefett »
    Quote from R_Lancer »
    I'm not sure about the Horizon land because you cannot fetch them. So you have no control in having them in play. And at worst it would suck if you have 3 lands in play, 1 mountain and 2 Horizon lands and your stuck with a fireblast in your hand.

    in that situation, wouldn't you just sacc one of the horizon lands to draw into either more gas or a mountain? i don't really think it's going to be bad, per se, but being locked out by moons, or worse yet BTB seems pretty bad.

    Makes splashing a second colour possibly worth it though. Not sure what the best would be. Blue for card draw, i guess? black for discard?

    Blood moon against us is useless even with the canopy lands. If your board is really just 2 canopy lands and a mountain, a blood moon would be a bad play because it lets us play fireblast, and if it doesn't, all it does is stop us from using the land to drawing cards. It doesn't keep us off mana like it would against Sultai. As for B2B, it doesn't prevent us from sacing the lands to let us draw cards. I don't think the hate would be as bad as you guys think. Worst that could happen is we play one early and it gets wastelanded, which isn't the worst thing when you're running a couple extra land cards anyway.

    I'd personally rather not have control over when we have these lands in play than not have control over being flooded out with no possible way to convert excess land into extra cards. If we only run 4 of them I don't think we're going to end up in a situation where we can't fireblast someone very often.

    Quote from magic geek »

    Regarding the Horizon land, I think BasedFuster might be missing part of why the Horizon land are good.
    This type of land allows land to be converted into spells.
    Having the ability to convert land into spells, means more land than normal can be played. It allows more stability, less mana screw, and less mulligans.

    I literally said you could go up from 18-19 lands to 20-21 lands in an earlier post. I didn't miss anything.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Burn
    My Burn deck BEATS Dark Depths.
    I just looked at a meta study of the latest big tournament, and burn is going about 1/3rd. Bad Times.
    Against Dark Depths it went 0/6. (cant be arsed looking for it, besides, eh.)
    ZERO wins from Six matches for the big boys, and My Burn Deck just beat it.

    Okay, cool, you can beat turbo Depths (except for the times in your tournament reports where you didn't). How do you do against other decks in the format? Can you beat DNT? Delver? U/W/x variants? I've come across those decks way more often than turbo Depths and while my odds of beating those decks are better than beating turbo Depths, I still need help from my sideboard to win consistently. I am genuinely curious to know how well you do against other decks with your current sideboard configuration.

    Quote from magic geek »

    Because of the Fireblast clash, I think decks that play them wont play the full 4 Fireblasts.
    Fueling Lavamancer is good, they also help Barbarian Ring .

    They are a minor improvement, as always, but they will become a standard part of the deck in a level similar to the use of Barbarian Ring.
    They are definitely good enough to be in basedeck.
    I would go for about 2 of them basedeck, replacing a land and a spell.

    They're untapped lands that give us red mana. I would just cut mountains, no spells. I also personally think 4 should be the minimum we use assuming a standard 20 land build, but I think it could be possible to run 5 or 6. It may actually be possible that the correct number is meta dependent and not static, where running more than 4 while cutting copies of Fireblast for Grim Lavamancer is correct if the meta favors longer games, while running 4 or less and retaining all 4 fireblast copies is correct if the meta favors shorter games.

    Quote from R_Lancer »

    I think red canopy lands are going to work with modern burn, unless there's a modern version of fireblast. If we really want free draws, we have Street Wraith and at one time we had Gitaxian Probe - and these cards were almost never used in burn. I think using a non-basic lands (unfetchable and unblastable) just to maybe draw a card (which cost mana to activate) is not a good idea in legacy burn.

    I doubt it... Think of this, tap a land for mana and lose another land to draw a card... When are you going to play this on turn 4. Burn is mana sensitive, every mana is counted. why not play 4 Street Wraith all you need to do is pay 2 life and discard a Street Wraith to draw a card...

    The reason we don't play Street Wraith is because it makes our mulligan decisions horrible. We either have to cut land or cut threat density to run that card, which is not what you want when presented with a sketchy hand that contains one or more copies of Wraith. With the canopy lands, since they are also lands that tap for red mana, we can straight up just cut mountains for them and not screw up our ratios.

    You're also not looking at these lands with the right mindset. The vast majority of games I've lost with burn have been to mana flooding. I still remember a match in this local tournament I was in 2 years ago against Pox that I lost because I flooded hard all 3 games. On one of the games I ended up drawing 6 mountains in a row without seeing another spell before I got cursed scroll'd to death. Needless to say I'm still salty about losing what should have been an excellent matchup due to mana flood, especially since that was my only loss that night. The draw ability is meant for those situations. If you go past turn 4, you're out of gas, and you're starting to flood, you can use the ability to give yourself another chance to draw more gas. Running these lands also means we're most likely okay going up to 20-21 land from 18-19, reducing our odds of mana screw early on in the game as well. These lands are not meant to be used to draw cards early on; they're meant to be used in the late game as a way to address what is arguably Burn's biggest weakness as a deck.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Burn
    Stage can be tutored/loamed for, Hexmage cannot so a depths player would have to draw her naturally. If you only have one needle, just hit the card that's more likely to show up.

    Any thoughts on the new canopy lands and quantity we should run? That was the big meat and potatoes of my post actually and I think we should address it ASAP in order to further improve and evolve burn.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Burn
    I'm surprised magic geek didn't consider Pithing Needle already. It works against a lot of other good decks that use activated abilities like DNT, and you can just plop it down turn 1 and name Thespian's Stage to stop the combo. Win-win in my book, but yeah anyway if you're a serious competitive player, getting attached to a pet deck is just bad and if you know your local meta is stacked against you, the best way to adapt is to play something else. You play burn because there's certain decks it's very good against and if the meta is mostly those certain decks, burn is the best deck to exploit those deck's weaknesses.

    Anyway, the main thing I want to post about is the new canopy lands that got spoiled in Modern Horizons. We now have access to up to 8 lands that we can sacrifice to draw us cards (Sunbaked Canyon and Fiery Islet), which is huge for us, as using our lands to draw extra cards shores up a major weakness with this deck. However, since they're nonbasic, make Price of Progress and Fireblast worse, and using them for mana costs us life (Negligible at first but if you get 2-3 of them out early, it adds up), I don't feel like 8 canopy lands is the right number for us. I wonder what everyone else who plays this deck thinks the right number should be?

    My gut feeling is telling me that 4-6 is the sweet spot for us, but maybe someone here with more experience with the deck or more experience number crunching can give me a better or more statistically sound answer. I'm not worried about them not being fetchable, firstly because my deck is built with 20 mountains anyway, and secondly if I decide I want to put Grim Lavamancer back in my deck again, these canopy lands fuel him just like fetches do.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Burn
    Quote from DanzBorin »

    Fetch Lands for Lavamancer and a Single Taiga for sideboard options that hit artifacts and enchantments. Have to have an out against Laylines.

    In my experience, we don't need to care about leylines. No well-designed legacy deck (the ones that will do well at GP's and such) is actually running them. Even if we do come across some scrub that does run Leylines in the board, we can still probably get there with our creatures and non-targeted burn.

    In conclusion, we lose more win % to decks that run Wasteland than we gain against decks that run Leyline of Sanctity.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Burn
    Lol death's shadow. Seems pretty easy to wreck with burn if they're going out of the way to power out a big Death's Shadow. Miracles seems a lot easier to play against now that they can't countertop lock us. The only deck I've been having trouble with is DNT and it's mostly just because I can't draw enough answers for their threats most of the time despite running 4 Smash and 3 Searing Blood in the SB.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Burn
    So I'm curious, how does burn now stack up in the current meta since Deathrite was banned? Since delver and elves have been neutered and I've already been stomped by DNT enough times, I guess the deck I'm most curious about is Mono red prison, but I'd still love a look at the overall field.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Teferi, Temporal Archmage: Chain Veil Combo & Stax Master
    I've been playing at this store close to my new house with Tatyova, Benthic Druid and it seems like the meta at my new store is a solid 50/50 split right now for both types of aggro with a good dose of combo mixed in and one prison style enchantment deck that ended up winning in points tonight. I haven't fully assembled this deck and thus haven't played it yet, but I get the impression that decks here can switch between going big or going wide. Tonight I went through several pods and played decks like Kaalia, Maelstrom wanderer, The Ur-Dragon, Tasigur, Marath, and Estrid among other things. I think my decision to have cards that work against either type of aggro works well here.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Teferi, Temporal Archmage: Chain Veil Combo & Stax Master
    Quote from benjameenbear »
    Indeed. Those cards are all pretty satisfactory in my opinion for your meta. For the Maze of Ith vs. Silent Arbiter, I think that this particular selection goes to which type of Aggro you're facing: wide or tall. Tall Aggro decks (decks that are Voltron or pump up a single creature to massive proportions) can kill you quickly and the Maze will be great in turning those decks off. For Wide Aggro decks (decks that swarm the field with creatures), the Arbiter will be better. The same argument would be made for the Karn Liberated vs. Propaganda choice as well. And since you're facing mostly green decks, which typically swarm the battlefield rather than generate Tall creatures, I think that Propaganda and the Arbiter are better choices for you.

    I think for an unknown/new meta it might just do me well to include Ith and Propaganda/arbiter. I'm leaning more towards arbiter because it can be tutored. This way I'll have something for either type of aggro deck.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Teferi, Temporal Archmage: Chain Veil Combo & Stax Master
    So here's my substitutions list so far for cards I don't have/can't afford at the moment thanks to yalls inputs:

    Timetwister -> Propaganda or Karn Liberated
    Copy artifact -> Phyrexian Metamorph
    Power Artifact -> Worn Powerstone
    Tabernacle -> Silent Arbiter or maybe Maze of Ith??
    Mox Diamond -> Lotus Petal

    Seems decent enough right?
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Teferi, Temporal Archmage: Chain Veil Combo & Stax Master
    I already own Time Spiral, so as of right now the only big money cards I don't have are Timetwister, Tabernacle, Candelabra, Power artifact, and Grim monolith (that card spiked up way too much recently omg). I also don't have Mox Diamond, but I'll substitute a Lotus petal for it instead. I chose to run Silent Arbiter and Propaganda because I already own those cards, and I think I'll just end up splurging for Grim Monolith. I could probably also run City of Traitors since I have 2 copies, and I think I'm gonna run Karn Liberated too since he's good removal.

    There's numerous creature strategies I've play against, ranging from Omnath (both versions), Animar, elf tribal, Krenko, Zur, Muldrotha (this guy's been really popular as just a goodstuff deck recently), dino tribal, and a lot of other ones I can't remember off top. All I remember is they can either combo or just swing with big boards, and I kind of want it to be more generalized anyway since I just moved into a new area.

    I guess I could consider evacuation, but I'm not sure if I have a free slot for that card as of right now.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Teferi, Temporal Archmage: Chain Veil Combo & Stax Master
    I see more decks going wide, not so much focusing on buffing 1 dude because removal is very popular here. Both boardwipes and targeted removal get played, but players here figure they might as well go wide and reduce the value of targeted removal rather than losing a big dude to both targeted removal and boardwipes. Out of my collection I have both Silent Arbiter and Propaganda. I don't feel like dropping 20 dollars on what's essentially a 4cmc tabernacle. Maybe I can just run either one or maybe both of those cards.

    You'd rather run windfall and not re-use the graveyard than pay 2 extra mana in Time Reversal? Is the 2 extra that big a difference in a scenario where you need to play the card? I know twister is 1000x more expensive than Time reversal for a good reason, but still, it's maybe $2 versus $2000.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Teferi, Temporal Archmage: Chain Veil Combo & Stax Master
    Question, what would be some good substitutes for the most expensive cards in this list such as Timetwister, Tabernacle, and power artifact? The most I'm willing to splurge for this deck right now is a Mana crypt and maybe grim monolith. I don't have Mox diamond either but I think I can either trade an extra city of traitors for it or get a Lotus petal to run instead.

    If it helps focus the suggestions a bit, what cards could help tune this deck to better fight aggro strategies? I know they're probably not the most competitive strategies to fight but they are the most dominant locally.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Burn
    I came back into the game after a short hiatus to play in a local team tournament last Saturday. I decided to play Burn over Grixis Delver because I knew I'd be much less likely to make mistakes with burn. Despite going 1-3 with the rest of my team, I ended up only having 3 real misplays that day, and none of them really made a difference as to the outcome of the games. I changed up my list from usual, going completely fetchless, and consolidating my sideboard into 5 different cards under 4 distinct matchup categories.

    This is the 75 I chose to run:

    Round 1: Lands (0-2)
    This was an interesting round as I ended up playing against Jody Keith; a player who's top 8'd multiple GP's and Opens with Lands, and is probably one of the best Lands players in the world currently. Game 1, he attempts to Crop Rotate on turn 3, sacrificing a Tabernacle and leaving up a Taiga and Wasteland; I respond with a Price of Progress. After that resolves, he gets a Glacial Chasm and stabilizes at 10 life. The following turn, he follows up by manabonding the dark depths combo and I don't have enough instant speed burn to win before he attacks with Marit Lage. Game 2 is the same thing, he gets out a Marit Lage while at 8 life and I don't have enough burn to close the gap (double fireblast definitely would have gotten me there). I will say that after playing against him, I've realized that the Lands matchup is definitely less favorable than it looks on paper. Also I was surprised at his sideboard strategy; he only brought in 2 Krosan Grip against me just in case I brought in Blood Moon or Ensnaring Bridge. He's the first lands player I've seen not to board in Sphere of Resistance or other artifact-based hate against me.

    Round 2: Elves (2-1)
    This matchup was pretty straightforward. Game 1, I keep my opponent off of enough creatures to stop him from doing anything. Game 2, my opponent manages to Natural Order into Ruric Thar, the Unbowed. I manage to remove it, but at the cost of all my lands and going to 2 life. The end result is that my board is now 2 Eidolon and 0 land. My opponent manages to follow up with a Scavanging Ooze to recover. Game 3, my opponent stumbles and I hit multiple Searing cards.

    Round 3: Burn Mirror (0-2)
    My opponent straight up drew way better than I did this round. Game 1, I stabilize at 8, and I have the lead in life total with double Eidolon out (he's at 4), but my opponent manages to come back and win with double Fireblast. Game 2, my opponent gets off a late game Swiftspear+2 bolts to put me at 3 life out of nowhere.

    Round 4: Grixis Delver (1-2)
    Game 1, I play around most of his counters and burn him out while he stumbles with ponders. Game 2, he counters my attempt to remove his turn 1 Deathrite Shaman and then proceeds to power out a turn 2 True-name Nemesis, which ends up beating me in a race. Game 3, we both have slow starts, but he manages to win after getting out a Gurmag Angler and double Flusterstorming my Price of Progress (It would have been for 10 if it had resolved) when I had 3 mana up.

    Overall despite the bad record I had a lot of fun and I feel like I still haven't lost my touch actually playing the deck. The only real bummer was that I originally wanted to name our team the Crimson Tide (as all 3 of us were playing burn decks) just to get reactions out of people (I live in Louisiana), but the people running the tournament decided to rename our team as well as a few others. I was so close to living the dream.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Burn
    Quote from ox4 »
    Ok....i confess...i have no idea how to play eidolon in this deck. Really. Ive been playing magic since 1994 and i just dont get it.
    So i play this card in my second turn? Then what? Every spell i cast for the rest of the game costs me 2 life? I play lightning bolt to do 3 damage to you and 2 damage to me?
    Do i wait till later in the game to cast it?
    Do i cast it then do nothing until i have lethal damage in my hand?

    I get it, im wrong. Everyone who has ever played magic sees how awesome this card is in a burn deck but me.

    Can someone tell me how to play this card?
    As in:
    When do i want to cast it in a ideal situation?
    What am i trying to do before i cast it?
    What am i trying to do after i cast it?
    What 4 cards should i cut to fit it in?

    Im really looking forward to your answers.

    I know I'm kind of late to this discussion, but I haven't noticed anyone bring this up so I thought I might mention it. The reason Eidolon is good is because of how Legacy is as a format: The vast majority of cards that are playable in Legacy are 3cmc or less, with most cards that cost more being either super value control cards (Jace, the Mind Sculptor), has a cost reduction clause (Gurmag Angler) or cheated onto the field (Batterskull, Emrakul, Griselbrand). So if you're on the play and jam this card turn 2 against most decks in the format and it resolves, literally anything your opponent will play effectively has "This card deals 2 damage to you" written on it. If they want to advance their gameplan or even just remove Eidolon, they have to help yours as well. Another benefit is that you can lock your opponents out of the game if they are are 2 or less life, so you only really need to deal 18 damage to win. The only real outs to Eidolon at such a low life total are JTMS, Murderous Cut, or Fireblast.

    Sure you take damage playing your own spells, but between Eidolon being an attacker and your opponent taking damage from playing their spells, it usually turns out asymmetric most of the time. The only time I won't jam him out on turn 2 is if I'm against a blue deck and I suspect they have a Daze. Obviously don't play him if you're far behind in life total, but that's usually much later in the game.

    I also feel like this may have been covered earlier, but don't run Flame Rift and Eidolon in the same list. Flame Rift was what burn mages ran before Eidolon was printed, and obviously now it's just not good to deal yourself 6 while dealing your opponent 4.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
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