So we're labeling it an unfair deck because it can dump 4 Phoenixes on T2 once in a billion? Mind you Death Shadow can kill on T2 and I think Humans can kill on Turn 3(not sure about that).
If you are paying four mana for Arclight Phoenix, something has gone horribly awry.
And yet, sometimes is exactly what you need to do, because you gotta care for either counters/removals or interaction from your opponent or preserve your cards in hand for later bursts.
It has busted draws, but they're no more busted than the nuts with Humans/Spirits or GDS. Are they unfair decks? If not then phoenix isn't an unfair deck, if they are, then it is. It depends on how do you define "unfair" in a format were unfair/broken is par for the course.
In the 4-5 months that I've been playing the deck, I've only ever done 3 phoenix + flipped Thing in the 3rd turn once. 2 Phoenix on T2 is easier, not common and still not Dredge/Infect/Grishoalbrand type of game ending. Hell, even Elves or Humans can race 2 Phoenixes on T2.
It should be noted that it's worst matchups are fair decks, so Phoenix and decks like it are good for decks like UWx Control/Midrange, Jund, Rock. Dredge is just raining on everyone's parade.
Finally, a point you should consider, from all the games I've played with deck (keep in mind I was an early adopter) the threats that won me the most games have been:
1) Thing
2) Swiftspear (When it was played as a 2-4-of)
3) Drakes = Phoenix
Pteramanders would probably rank next to Swiftspears, but haven't managed to test it as much as I'd like the past few weeks.
It's just a part of the life cycle of thread. Discussions flow smoothly for days or a few weeks, then twin would be revisited one way or the other. Although I'm surprised it came back with a lot of intensity today.
in fairness it wasnt out of the blue. that whole bit in the TCC + Blake Rassmusen + Steve Sunu 'fact/fiction' interview about twin was a ****-up. the fact that it was a user/player submitted question, the way it was phrased, it being selected as something worth talking about, and the subsequent almost dismissive and unrelated response.
it just highlights how naive the community has and continues to be, and goes to show why wizards employees are often better served not saying anything at all lest it be blown out of proportion after being put under a microscope. 2 guys who likely have minimal to no say in ban/unban decisions, one of which openly said he wasnt even there when the twin ban decision was made (Steve), giving an unrelated and opinionated answer to a loaded question isnt some special insight to be used as proof/evidence of anything.
Bingo. WOTC staff parroting the same old exaggerated horror stories is fairly tilting. It means that not only do people hold these opinions at WOTC, but it's simply accepted fact in their bubble. What a shame that we, in the community, ever believed they would be capable of thinking otherwise. Time and time again, WOTC staff show their utter incompetence in grasping even the basic fundamentals of Modern. I guess I shouldn't be surprised in the least bit?
You keep harping on for the "supposed" incompetence of WotC's (and have been harping on for LITERAL YEARS) and yet, every ******* set you're being proven wrong. Especially the last 4 sets. New cards have been entering Modern and have been making an impact, a year ago 2 cards were unbanned, a month ago a problematic deck was banned.
I fail to see that "incompetence" and "failure to understand Modern". Have they said stupid things? Of course they have. If that's the only thing that, in your eyes, is worth tunnel visioning to, then we can't help you. The rest of us will enjoy the format in it's best state that it's ever been for years. We might disagree on where we want Modern to go or what we want from the format, but we're not laser focusing on a single issue that's been repeatedly shut down, both by the community and WotC themselves. Twin isn't coming back any time soon. Suck it up and deal with it.
How is it that Teysa's OBVIOUSLY sarcastic response is infracted as trolling but CFP's "obviously sarcastic isn't?
I saw a list somewhere (I think it 5-0'd a few weeks back) with 4 Young Pyromancers, 4 Monastery Mentors and 4 Arclight Phoenixs. You could shift some numbers and work with 4 Delvers and a couple of Dovins.
On a scale of 1 to 10 for cantrips, with 1 being the worst that's ever existed and 10 being Ancestral Recall, Ponder is an 8-8.5 and Brainstorm is 9-9.5.
Don't ever expect to see Ponder again in modern. The best you're gonna get is Preordain and that's debatable with phoenix decks being as good as they are. A critical mass of (good) cantrips can be a dangerous thing.
You should try Swiftspears and mutagenic growths/gut shots,but then you're almost to the point of playing UR Phoenix with looting/scours etc. without the phoenixes and thing in the ice (arguably the reason to play the deck).
Many have said Search for Azcanta, not only is this too slow, it doesn't find creature combo pieces. I would not play, just as I didn't play in Breach Moon.
Wanna know why you didn't play one or more in Breach Moon? Hint: it's in the name of the deck.
BGx also has that T1 threat and we know the numbers on that matchup as being even.
2015 Jund is both considerably less powerful than either 2018 Jund or 2018 GDS. No version of Jund plays a 1 mana Negate or a 1 mana bolt-proof threat. I will not address these differences again.
The only "considerable" upgrades BGx got is Bloodbraid, a 4 mana card. Twin has, also, many new toys that didn't exist then to toy around with.
Don't address them, that's your prerogative, but you can at least address the rest of my points that you kindly ignored.
You're ignoring their gameplans. Remanding a Goyf (a non-boltable threat) didn't nuke your graveyard, so your supposed 1 mana threat is no longer 1 mana and no longer a threat. If you're referring to Death's Shadow, it can be killed the same way Twin and other URx decks had to deal with massive Goyfs, double bolting or block with snap and bolt it. Your 1 mana negate is effective IF these threats stick and GDS runs 3 in the main. Compared to the litany of counters (or removals) Twin typically played, good luck.
You also keep glossing over the fact what the requirements for having a massive Death's Shadow is or that Twin played Roast and Dispel in the main during the end of its tenure.
Other than that, Twin was hiding Blue's (and the format's as a whole) woes with a mask of "interactivity" that was toxic to better cards entering the format via either unbannings or new printings and you people keep ignoring that.
BGx also has that T1 threat and we know the numbers on that matchup as being even.
Delver typically dedicated fewer cards to it's xerox plan compared to GDS and used those slots for interaction or threats instead. Remanding a Delver or a Pyro is w/e, remanding an Angler is backbreaking. GDS also runs headfirst into Twin's second, if not first, most potent gameplan: CounterBurn, which Delver wasn't as susceptible.
Remanding your delve creature, Bolt-Snap-Bolt, and Push are great against DS. Delver played Pyro, Delver AND the delve creatures, along with some hand disruption and some counters, that's why it had a good matchup. T1/T2 threat into disruption is what made Grixis Delver good against Twin. Hell, that's why I played Jeskai Delver/Midrange back then in our store filled with Twin and Delver, just because path could take care of their delve fatties and Helix and Geist were a mirror breaker.
GDS is lacking the T1/T2 threat density and if it wants to race, it's getting itself into low life totals, and the many twin players here know that the counterburn aspect of twin was one of the three potent gameplans it had. Blood Moon ins't half bad against GDS as well. I don't see GDS being as bad as Grixis Delver was for Twin, simply because of the requirements of playing Death's Shadow.
Yes Twin IS problematic. Banned rightfully or not, the past 3 years have shown that the mere mention of a 4 mana red enchantment is beyond toxic. However you cut it, Twin was/is a problem for a significant portion of the playerbase and for Wizards themselves.
People's subjective feelings aren't a good reason for banning a deck or keeping it banned. There are always going to be people who hate any deck. Besides, Twin was considerably less hated than a lot of decks that are still legal to play right now.
What deck is hated the most is a metric you don't have and there are thousands if not millions of players that haven't enjoy the misery of EOT Exarch into Twin, since they started playing after it got banned. Besides that wasn't even my point. Twin is problematic according to Wizards because they banned it. The optics that come if they unban a problematic deck to fix another problematic deck (that might not be even a problem) and also allow Twin to cover up the lack of answers in the format (which it did before) is even worse. Then comes what the community thinks and the "hatemail" Wizards will endure, because clearly the Twin topic is still controversial, 3 years after it's banning.
Also, no meaningful upgrades? Then what is Jace? What is Azcanta? What is Ancestral? What is Opt? Hell, what is Teferi, if not meaningful upgrades to fight UWx control/midrange and bury BGx, the two historically bad matchups of 45-55?
Twin would not play Azcanta or Ancestral. Azcanta doesn't find your combo creatures, and Ancestral has been proven to be too slow for Modern. And it doesn't really matter if Teferi would go into Jeskai Twin, because that was a bad deck, so I don't really care what they do. Opt is really a sidegrade for the deck. It's a worse cantrip than Serum Visions in terms of digging, which is very important for Twin, but Opt's instant speed just plays better with the instant speed nature of the deck. Finally, yeah I'm sure we'd replace Jace, AoT with Mind Sculptors for the fair matchups, but if this last year has proven anything, it's that Jace is just ok in Modern. So yeah, Twin has not been upgraded at the same rate as the format as a whole.
You posit that Twin would slow down the format and then suggest that it wouldn't play cards to fight in that slowed down format? Twin will absolutely play Azcanta and/or Ancestral. Azcanta might be good even in the main because it helps all 3 plans of the deck. They, along with Jace are perfect cards to fight through their worst matchups (and by worst we're talking about 45-55). Jace is "ok" in Modern in the sense that it didn't break it. It's one of the best decks in the control decks that play it and it'll be one of the best in Twin for the grindy matchups.
It's not Wild Nacatl, it's more Grave Troll after Eldritch Moon and Kaladesh. Saying that Twin is a safe unban and there is no chance of supplanting KCI as the best deck in the format is asinine and a very strong assumption.
Twin is a safe unban because it probably would have been safe to just not have banned it when they did in the first place. Yeah, Twin was the best deck of 2015, a bit better than Affinity and Jund were. It was 12% of the meta in December. Well, GDS was over 12% at one point in 2017, and Humans was 12% for a large portion of 2018, and both were considered the de facto "best deck" in those years, and yet they were both left alone. And thankfully so, because the meta shifted and they both settled into a comfortable position as just another good deck in the format. If you think Twin would still dominate the format today, look at what I said were the second and third best decks of 2015. Traditional Affinity practically doesn't exist anymore, and Jund has been on life support for years, despite WotC desperately pumping the shell with cards to keep it alive. You're absolutely out of your mind if you think Twin would be as good in 2019 as it was in 2015.
And finally, Twin itself was not inherently problematic. Twin being at 12% of the meta was borderline problematic, but any deck being that ubiquitous is a bit of a problem. WotC had never taken action on a deck as low as 12% before the Twin ban, though, and they haven't taken action on other decks that have reached the same metashare level that Twin did in the last couple years. And that's largely because of the backlash from the Twin ban. The outcry from that, along with the people who weren't happy about the Pod ban, made WotC realize that whack-a-mole bannings every year to keep the format power down weren't what the players wanted.
Twin is not safe now for the same reasons it wasn't then; for fear of being the best deck in the format and hiding the inherent problems of the format behind a mask of "interactiveness" and the idea that it will force other decks to interact with it.
I like the irony though. People were saying that the 3 UW control Top 8 in June was a fluke and a regional oddity, same as the 3 Twin Top 8, but KCI has 4 -one from the man that won 2 GPs with it- and the unban Twin pitchforks are out. The playing definitely wasn't suited to beat KCI or artifact decks in general, why isn't this top 8 considered a fluke.
(Before you go on about resilience to hate/best deck in the format etc., Twin was also all of them).
You don't insert a problematic deck to (try and) fix a problem in a format.
That assumes that the deck a) was actually problematic when it was banned; a point of controversy that has been discussed for three years, and b) would still be problematic today, in a considerably faster and more powerful format, in which it got no meaningful upgrades.
Both of those are very strong assumptions to make.
Considerably faster? The last pages included an analysis of thousand of games and the bottom line was tha the format is 2.7% faster or something.
Yes Twin IS problematic. Banned rightfully or not, the past 3 years have shown that the mere mention of a 4 mana red enchantment is beyond toxic. However you cut it, Twin was/is a problem for a significant portion of the playerbase and for Wizards themselves.
Also, no meaningful upgrades? Then what is Jace? What is Azcanta? What is Ancestral? What is Opt? Hell, what is Teferi, if not meaningful upgrades to fight UWx control/midrange and bury BGx, the two historically bad matchups of 45-55?
It's not Wild Nacatl, it's more Grave Troll after Eldritch Moon and Kaladesh. Saying that Twin is a safe unban and there is no chance of supplanting KCI as the best deck in the format is asinine and a very strong assumption.
KCI's worst matchups are decks with White in them, as a start unban SFM to facilitate them with an early proactive threat and go from there. Don't introduce a factor with extremely wide uncertainty, that's asking for trouble...
And yet, sometimes is exactly what you need to do, because you gotta care for either counters/removals or interaction from your opponent or preserve your cards in hand for later bursts.
It has busted draws, but they're no more busted than the nuts with Humans/Spirits or GDS. Are they unfair decks? If not then phoenix isn't an unfair deck, if they are, then it is. It depends on how do you define "unfair" in a format were unfair/broken is par for the course.
In the 4-5 months that I've been playing the deck, I've only ever done 3 phoenix + flipped Thing in the 3rd turn once. 2 Phoenix on T2 is easier, not common and still not Dredge/Infect/Grishoalbrand type of game ending. Hell, even Elves or Humans can race 2 Phoenixes on T2.
It should be noted that it's worst matchups are fair decks, so Phoenix and decks like it are good for decks like UWx Control/Midrange, Jund, Rock. Dredge is just raining on everyone's parade.
Finally, a point you should consider, from all the games I've played with deck (keep in mind I was an early adopter) the threats that won me the most games have been:
1) Thing
2) Swiftspear (When it was played as a 2-4-of)
3) Drakes = Phoenix
Pteramanders would probably rank next to Swiftspears, but haven't managed to test it as much as I'd like the past few weeks.
You keep harping on for the "supposed" incompetence of WotC's (and have been harping on for LITERAL YEARS) and yet, every ******* set you're being proven wrong. Especially the last 4 sets. New cards have been entering Modern and have been making an impact, a year ago 2 cards were unbanned, a month ago a problematic deck was banned.
I fail to see that "incompetence" and "failure to understand Modern". Have they said stupid things? Of course they have. If that's the only thing that, in your eyes, is worth tunnel visioning to, then we can't help you. The rest of us will enjoy the format in it's best state that it's ever been for years. We might disagree on where we want Modern to go or what we want from the format, but we're not laser focusing on a single issue that's been repeatedly shut down, both by the community and WotC themselves. Twin isn't coming back any time soon. Suck it up and deal with it.
1. Have you played against the new Rakdos Burn, and if so, how's the matchup?
2. Is Slayers' Stronghold really that good? It seems iffy with those color requirements.
Ponder is an 8-8.5 and Brainstorm is 9-9.5.
Don't ever expect to see Ponder again in modern. The best you're gonna get is Preordain and that's debatable with phoenix decks being as good as they are. A critical mass of (good) cantrips can be a dangerous thing.
Why not a boros charm in place of the 4th helix?
(sidenote: god I hate those altered delvers
Wanna know why you didn't play one or more in Breach Moon? Hint: it's in the name of the deck.
The only "considerable" upgrades BGx got is Bloodbraid, a 4 mana card. Twin has, also, many new toys that didn't exist then to toy around with.
Don't address them, that's your prerogative, but you can at least address the rest of my points that you kindly ignored.
You're ignoring their gameplans. Remanding a Goyf (a non-boltable threat) didn't nuke your graveyard, so your supposed 1 mana threat is no longer 1 mana and no longer a threat. If you're referring to Death's Shadow, it can be killed the same way Twin and other URx decks had to deal with massive Goyfs, double bolting or block with snap and bolt it. Your 1 mana negate is effective IF these threats stick and GDS runs 3 in the main. Compared to the litany of counters (or removals) Twin typically played, good luck.
You also keep glossing over the fact what the requirements for having a massive Death's Shadow is or that Twin played Roast and Dispel in the main during the end of its tenure.
Other than that, Twin was hiding Blue's (and the format's as a whole) woes with a mask of "interactivity" that was toxic to better cards entering the format via either unbannings or new printings and you people keep ignoring that.
Delver typically dedicated fewer cards to it's xerox plan compared to GDS and used those slots for interaction or threats instead. Remanding a Delver or a Pyro is w/e, remanding an Angler is backbreaking. GDS also runs headfirst into Twin's second, if not first, most potent gameplan: CounterBurn, which Delver wasn't as susceptible.
GDS is lacking the T1/T2 threat density and if it wants to race, it's getting itself into low life totals, and the many twin players here know that the counterburn aspect of twin was one of the three potent gameplans it had. Blood Moon ins't half bad against GDS as well. I don't see GDS being as bad as Grixis Delver was for Twin, simply because of the requirements of playing Death's Shadow.
What deck is hated the most is a metric you don't have and there are thousands if not millions of players that haven't enjoy the misery of EOT Exarch into Twin, since they started playing after it got banned. Besides that wasn't even my point. Twin is problematic according to Wizards because they banned it. The optics that come if they unban a problematic deck to fix another problematic deck (that might not be even a problem) and also allow Twin to cover up the lack of answers in the format (which it did before) is even worse. Then comes what the community thinks and the "hatemail" Wizards will endure, because clearly the Twin topic is still controversial, 3 years after it's banning.
You posit that Twin would slow down the format and then suggest that it wouldn't play cards to fight in that slowed down format? Twin will absolutely play Azcanta and/or Ancestral. Azcanta might be good even in the main because it helps all 3 plans of the deck. They, along with Jace are perfect cards to fight through their worst matchups (and by worst we're talking about 45-55). Jace is "ok" in Modern in the sense that it didn't break it. It's one of the best decks in the control decks that play it and it'll be one of the best in Twin for the grindy matchups.
Twin is not safe now for the same reasons it wasn't then; for fear of being the best deck in the format and hiding the inherent problems of the format behind a mask of "interactiveness" and the idea that it will force other decks to interact with it.
I like the irony though. People were saying that the 3 UW control Top 8 in June was a fluke and a regional oddity, same as the 3 Twin Top 8, but KCI has 4 -one from the man that won 2 GPs with it- and the unban Twin pitchforks are out. The playing definitely wasn't suited to beat KCI or artifact decks in general, why isn't this top 8 considered a fluke.
(Before you go on about resilience to hate/best deck in the format etc., Twin was also all of them).
Considerably faster? The last pages included an analysis of thousand of games and the bottom line was tha the format is 2.7% faster or something.
Yes Twin IS problematic. Banned rightfully or not, the past 3 years have shown that the mere mention of a 4 mana red enchantment is beyond toxic. However you cut it, Twin was/is a problem for a significant portion of the playerbase and for Wizards themselves.
Also, no meaningful upgrades? Then what is Jace? What is Azcanta? What is Ancestral? What is Opt? Hell, what is Teferi, if not meaningful upgrades to fight UWx control/midrange and bury BGx, the two historically bad matchups of 45-55?
It's not Wild Nacatl, it's more Grave Troll after Eldritch Moon and Kaladesh. Saying that Twin is a safe unban and there is no chance of supplanting KCI as the best deck in the format is asinine and a very strong assumption.
KCI's worst matchups are decks with White in them, as a start unban SFM to facilitate them with an early proactive threat and go from there. Don't introduce a factor with extremely wide uncertainty, that's asking for trouble...