one of the things i tell my group a lot, and no one has bothered yet, is to pack jester's cap effects. one of those will generally neuter my ability to win pretty hard.
the other thing i tell them is to punish me for casting spells and ramping. the ramping they haven't done much about but a well time ruination, or armageddon is game over. lock down my lands with something like back to basics even.
one guy is packing a lot of nasty red cards that ping for noncreature spell casts, activated abilities, nonbasic lands, etc they'll usually hurt enough to make a difference.
throw in some surprises. nothing wrecks my day more than going off only to have someone tap a mountain and pyroblast my combo, random counterspells, random removal. lemmie tell ya, it feels real bad to go to food chain and have it eat a nature's claim.
force me into top deck mode, sure, i can recover eventually but it puts the screws on me for awhile and allows you to get ahead
put pressure on me. throw things into the red zone at me. throw them at me a lot. throw them at me constantly. nothing makes me happier than an aggro player who 'shares the love' and goes after some other guy for awhile.
the biggest tip though? the thing i can say you need to do at all costs above all else?
i'd much rather see something like a bioware style single player rpg, or a recreating of the old microprose game. no need for a bad company to make an mmo out of a game that's already multiplayer
many of his you shouldn't play cards are actually quite valid to r/w, but articles like this, from someone with a platform like his, speak volumes to push against acceptance of valid game plans to r/w. his words have weight.
To be fair, it seems your meta has gone from one end of the extreme to the other and neither is really preferable. At least, I know I wouldn't want to be in a 3 hour game but I *also* would not want games to end by turn 6 on a frequent basis. Perhaps the shift in the meta was more of an "overcorrection" to games ending too soon? Which of course means going back to those types of decks might be something to avoid.
Is this a concern for your group? Are the games dragging on simply because they want them to last longer compared to the ones that ended on turn 5 or 6? If so, trying to find something in the middle is likely where you want to be. Maybe an aggressive Simic build? This gives you ways to end the game (Tooth and Nail; Craterhoof; etc.) as well as ways to try to stop the board from constantly being wrathed. Selesnya can be similar in that you get Avacyn, Teferi's Protection, Heroic Intervention, etc. to, again, stop wraths.
This is spot-on. The shift has been happening over the last 2 years or so.
This is a concern for us because we have limited time to play every week. we have a 4-6 hour window to get as many games in as possible, and lately we haven't been able to finish more than one game in an evening. Something more in the middle would be preferable.
If fogs are a problem, red seems the way to go. Gruul, Boros, or maybe Izzet (though not as much) can provide aggressive strategies along with ways to get through fogs (red has a bunch of "damage can't be prevented" effects for example). Green gives you Heroic Intervention and White gives you Boros Charm and Teferi's Protection. These all ensure your board sticks around.
Green also gives you toolbox elements and Bane of Progress. I mention that because I assume at least some "lock pieces" are artifacts or enchantments and Bane can be useful to get rid of them (assuming you can find a way to land a 6 mana creature amid the lock pieces).
And, as you mentioned, combo is another answer. And it doesn't have to be infinite combos or a deck dedicated to a combo. I personally don't like infinite combos (it sounds like you don't either) but adding one or two into your deck(s) can help end the games quicker. Tooth and Nail, which I mentioned above, can be used to "combo" out a table without it necessarily being an infinite combo. There are other ways to use combos that are not infinite if you choose to stay away from infinites, but they are a resource you can use to help end the current game and start the next one.
Gonna be honest, I'm the guy running the fogs... I am definitely part of the problem and intend to change...
Having more proactive answers seems nice, and I especially like that I was somewhat on track with the idea of combo, though not dedicating a deck to it seems wise. Just out of curiosity, using only green cards, what would Tooth and Nail fetch to end the game? I imagine the first card is Craterhoof Behemoth, but what's the second?
I am going to agree with avoiding building hard combo but the semi combo of the "big play" is what it seems like your meta needs. Typically what I feel a good commander game is a bunch of set up into a series of "big plays" which all get answered until one doesn't.
I am going to agree with the play red idea, either red or green utilising effects such as Craterhoof Behemoth that board stall breaking power. But to be honest any colour can do it. Black can rise of the dark realms for example.
If it weren't for the Fog deck I'd of suggested Zirilan of the claw all he can do is big plays, but playing against fog sucks.
Thanks for the great suggestions. I really think it's those "big plays" that our current decks are lacking to close out games and move on.
I'll have to do some research and find something. My friends are all very open to suggestions for their decks and take criticism very well, which is nice. We can always talk about how our games are going.
we ran into the same problem in our group and we've tried a few different things over the years
we tried 2v2, it was horrible. every deck turned into time warps but at least the games ended fast. newer people hated it (with good reason) and it did tremendous damage to our edh night as we couldn't retain any new blood. two strong players would be oppressive, and if you ended up partnered with someone not as good, or with a weaker deck, forget it you might as well not play.
This is really good to know, thank you for sharing. I was planning on suggesting 2v2, but will avoid it now.
what has naturally happened since we gave up on that was that yes, people started including more ways to WIN. we would discuss things, we still do, and ultimately the consensus is that... well the game has to end.
combo helps give the deck a goal and speed that end along. almost everyone packs something. maybe not many combos, but a few, just to close out games. ultimately we've seen interactivity increase. what happens is that guy is going to combo, so i need to run ways to stop him, i'm going to combo, so i need to run ways to protect it. the games become much more dynamic than 30 craw wurms lining up or sitting there fogging every turn. we tend to play 4-6 games a night now instead of 1-2.
new players bitch, they moan and complain still, but some of them join the discussion and actually start pushing their decks. i've seen more silver bullets pop up lately than i ever have before, and the games where everyone is on the same page become intense but don't carry on all night.
what happens a lot when you start running things just to try and stop their durdliness is that they just run more ways to maintain it. if you want to shift things you have to push a different angle.
the problem with combo isn't that its cheap or lame or anything like that, its actually that it becomes oppressive in a group where no one changes their deck to embrace the fact that it exists. when you find ways to combo out and not get mired in durdletown, but your opponents don't bother to adapt.
This is all great advice and pretty much in line with what a lot of people and myself are thinking. We should all be packing some sort of inevitability that allows us to win. I'm really craving that dymanic game that we've been lacking over the last few weeks.
I trust that my friends will all adapt well to change; we always do. It's just been a particularly rough patch these days. Thanks for the great advice and insight from your personal experience!
It might not be deemed relevant to the discussion, but i just wanted to say this is the kind of response and back and forth that makes the format great. encourage this with your group, encourage this on forums, encourage this everywhere. talking about problems, or solutions, or advancing the meta will make it everything so much more healthy in the long run
we ran into the same problem in our group and we've tried a few different things over the years
we tried 2v2, it was horrible. every deck turned into time warps but at least the games ended fast. newer people hated it (with good reason) and it did tremendous damage to our edh night as we couldn't retain any new blood. two strong players would be oppressive, and if you ended up partnered with someone not as good, or with a weaker deck, forget it you might as well not play.
what has naturally happened since we gave up on that was that yes, people started including more ways to WIN. we would discuss things, we still do, and ultimately the consensus is that... well the game has to end.
combo helps give the deck a goal and speed that end along. almost everyone packs something. maybe not many combos, but a few, just to close out games. ultimately we've seen interactivity increase. what happens is that guy is going to combo, so i need to run ways to stop him, i'm going to combo, so i need to run ways to protect it. the games become much more dynamic than 30 craw wurms lining up or sitting there fogging every turn. we tend to play 4-6 games a night now instead of 1-2.
new players bitch, they moan and complain still, but some of them join the discussion and actually start pushing their decks. i've seen more silver bullets pop up lately than i ever have before, and the games where everyone is on the same page become intense but don't carry on all night.
what happens a lot when you start running things just to try and stop their durdliness is that they just run more ways to maintain it. if you want to shift things you have to push a different angle.
the problem with combo isn't that its cheap or lame or anything like that, its actually that it becomes oppressive in a group where no one changes their deck to embrace the fact that it exists. when you find ways to combo out and not get mired in durdletown, but your opponents don't bother to adapt.
eh, its most likely just whatever guilds aligned with whichever side teaming up together. so like, if azorius and izzet side with bolas we'd get a mix of the two or something. it'll also probably be under explored, and not very interesting.
no really, because of the demand that'll be there due to legacy/modern/edh players in bypassing standard, and the scarcity of these only appearing there... i mean we already see it with the plants in the commander precons, so this brings it up to a whole new scale by including modern
i expect it to be insanely expensive as every single edh player who has wanted her for years goes out and buys 30 of her for their jank bird tribal and angel tribal decks
as an edh card... its okay. i mean she's a great walker and a good representation of serra, i'm just not sold on her doing much in a commander environment
ehhh. i think in order to make up for the color pairing's weaknesses you end up having to go really hard on things like mld, artifact destruction, board wipes, all that jazz. that'd be great but you're also lacking solid ways to draw and solid ways to ramp.
looting doesn't really net you any advantage and you're pretty much entirely reliant on red for that. there's some alternative ways to draw in white but you have to jump through some hoops and thats inefficient.
your ramp options leave you susceptible to artifact destruction because thats really the only way you're going to ramp in these colors, and you're not abusing them the way other colors can.
wrecking fun by going hard on mld and removal will make you public enemy, you're too slow to drop fatties and they don't end the game on the spot, you can't go wide because your ways to refuel are almost zero so a single board wipe is a blow out, heck even pushing a strategy of wipes and removal... great your cast armageddon then what? most other decks are going to have ways around that while refueling their hand you actually probably did the blue player a favor.
sure, the color pair does have a lot of options but they're so... inefficient, counter productive to your strategies, or just... bad, compared to well, every other color pair.
white does too much of everything without excelling at anything, and red is very narrow in its game plan. together they create a very mediocre deck. maybe you have success with your build, but on the whole most people don't get anywhere with r/w.
now think about every other pairing. that's not a culture problem. that's a design problem.
all of that said, yeah, i agree, boris sucks. he thought he was invincible after all.
we're doing away with the masters product, so here's another master's product.
i'm not entirely sure how i feel about this. this will probably end up being over priced and limited in print run, which is frustrating.
it will probably have 1-2 new cards that everyone wants for legacy, or modern, and a few cards for edh that all of those players want too... but the price and the print run will jack up the price of singles, especially over time. that's frustrating.
it might have some decent reprints, which will drop in value as a result, and that's frustrating too.
i like the new serra card and what she implies, i don't like how expensive and difficult to get it will inevitably be.
i suppose on the whole, i'm entirely frustrated with this product.
i think this is just a consequence on the feedback they got from the high ultimate masters msrp
"uh, people critize us for the increased msrp"
"just dont announce any more msrp"
problem solved
thisssssssssssssssssssssssssss.
almost every poor decision they've made in the past... bunch of years... has blamed the lgs and the consumer rather than wotc's own decisions. i mean, just look at all the products we've been told didn't sell well and that players didn't like... while simultaneously seeing those products decline in both quality and availability or how many times its been our fault that something got leaked
not sure why i should be hyped by this announcement
i mean, it tells us that they were going to release two products we already expected them to release, and nothing else.
in addition, with how bad last years oommander product was, this will be the first year ever where i don't preorder all of them and instead wait for a full a list, probably ordering singles instead
i dunno if i like the standard this will set for design...
you can't really design for arena and paper, and then just ban in arena when the rules go wonky or make the game take forever, so it stands to reason to combat that issue you'd have to design cards that can't be abused like that any more, cards that don't slow things down or stall or causes overly complicated gamestates... if that starts to happen... well that'll be a faster death spiral for mtg than anything else. even beebles. you can only have craw wurms smash each other for so long.
one of the things i tell my group a lot, and no one has bothered yet, is to pack jester's cap effects. one of those will generally neuter my ability to win pretty hard.
the other thing i tell them is to punish me for casting spells and ramping. the ramping they haven't done much about but a well time ruination, or armageddon is game over. lock down my lands with something like back to basics even.
one guy is packing a lot of nasty red cards that ping for noncreature spell casts, activated abilities, nonbasic lands, etc they'll usually hurt enough to make a difference.
throw in some surprises. nothing wrecks my day more than going off only to have someone tap a mountain and pyroblast my combo, random counterspells, random removal. lemmie tell ya, it feels real bad to go to food chain and have it eat a nature's claim.
force me into top deck mode, sure, i can recover eventually but it puts the screws on me for awhile and allows you to get ahead
put pressure on me. throw things into the red zone at me. throw them at me a lot. throw them at me constantly. nothing makes me happier than an aggro player who 'shares the love' and goes after some other guy for awhile.
the biggest tip though? the thing i can say you need to do at all costs above all else?
PAY FOR RHYSTIC STUDY
i'll bite and take the warning and/or ban.
don't do it. make him suffer for his article that essentially decry's all of r/w's valid strategies, creating the culture problem being argued
i'm talking about this one:
http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/37865_Commander-Cards-You-Shouldnt-Play.html
many of his you shouldn't play cards are actually quite valid to r/w, but articles like this, from someone with a platform like his, speak volumes to push against acceptance of valid game plans to r/w. his words have weight.
It might not be deemed relevant to the discussion, but i just wanted to say this is the kind of response and back and forth that makes the format great. encourage this with your group, encourage this on forums, encourage this everywhere. talking about problems, or solutions, or advancing the meta will make it everything so much more healthy in the long run
we tried 2v2, it was horrible. every deck turned into time warps but at least the games ended fast. newer people hated it (with good reason) and it did tremendous damage to our edh night as we couldn't retain any new blood. two strong players would be oppressive, and if you ended up partnered with someone not as good, or with a weaker deck, forget it you might as well not play.
what has naturally happened since we gave up on that was that yes, people started including more ways to WIN. we would discuss things, we still do, and ultimately the consensus is that... well the game has to end.
combo helps give the deck a goal and speed that end along. almost everyone packs something. maybe not many combos, but a few, just to close out games. ultimately we've seen interactivity increase. what happens is that guy is going to combo, so i need to run ways to stop him, i'm going to combo, so i need to run ways to protect it. the games become much more dynamic than 30 craw wurms lining up or sitting there fogging every turn. we tend to play 4-6 games a night now instead of 1-2.
new players bitch, they moan and complain still, but some of them join the discussion and actually start pushing their decks. i've seen more silver bullets pop up lately than i ever have before, and the games where everyone is on the same page become intense but don't carry on all night.
what happens a lot when you start running things just to try and stop their durdliness is that they just run more ways to maintain it. if you want to shift things you have to push a different angle.
the problem with combo isn't that its cheap or lame or anything like that, its actually that it becomes oppressive in a group where no one changes their deck to embrace the fact that it exists. when you find ways to combo out and not get mired in durdletown, but your opponents don't bother to adapt.
also i'm less interested in the planeswalkers being here, and more interested to see the planeswalker interactions/hate thats printed here
no really, because of the demand that'll be there due to legacy/modern/edh players in bypassing standard, and the scarcity of these only appearing there... i mean we already see it with the plants in the commander precons, so this brings it up to a whole new scale by including modern
as an edh card... its okay. i mean she's a great walker and a good representation of serra, i'm just not sold on her doing much in a commander environment
looting doesn't really net you any advantage and you're pretty much entirely reliant on red for that. there's some alternative ways to draw in white but you have to jump through some hoops and thats inefficient.
your ramp options leave you susceptible to artifact destruction because thats really the only way you're going to ramp in these colors, and you're not abusing them the way other colors can.
wrecking fun by going hard on mld and removal will make you public enemy, you're too slow to drop fatties and they don't end the game on the spot, you can't go wide because your ways to refuel are almost zero so a single board wipe is a blow out, heck even pushing a strategy of wipes and removal... great your cast armageddon then what? most other decks are going to have ways around that while refueling their hand you actually probably did the blue player a favor.
sure, the color pair does have a lot of options but they're so... inefficient, counter productive to your strategies, or just... bad, compared to well, every other color pair.
white does too much of everything without excelling at anything, and red is very narrow in its game plan. together they create a very mediocre deck. maybe you have success with your build, but on the whole most people don't get anywhere with r/w.
now think about every other pairing. that's not a culture problem. that's a design problem.
all of that said, yeah, i agree, boris sucks. he thought he was invincible after all.
i'm not entirely sure how i feel about this. this will probably end up being over priced and limited in print run, which is frustrating.
it will probably have 1-2 new cards that everyone wants for legacy, or modern, and a few cards for edh that all of those players want too... but the price and the print run will jack up the price of singles, especially over time. that's frustrating.
it might have some decent reprints, which will drop in value as a result, and that's frustrating too.
i like the new serra card and what she implies, i don't like how expensive and difficult to get it will inevitably be.
i suppose on the whole, i'm entirely frustrated with this product.
seems decent for standard/limited though
thisssssssssssssssssssssssssss.
almost every poor decision they've made in the past... bunch of years... has blamed the lgs and the consumer rather than wotc's own decisions. i mean, just look at all the products we've been told didn't sell well and that players didn't like... while simultaneously seeing those products decline in both quality and availability or how many times its been our fault that something got leaked
i mean, it tells us that they were going to release two products we already expected them to release, and nothing else.
in addition, with how bad last years oommander product was, this will be the first year ever where i don't preorder all of them and instead wait for a full a list, probably ordering singles instead
you can't really design for arena and paper, and then just ban in arena when the rules go wonky or make the game take forever, so it stands to reason to combat that issue you'd have to design cards that can't be abused like that any more, cards that don't slow things down or stall or causes overly complicated gamestates... if that starts to happen... well that'll be a faster death spiral for mtg than anything else. even beebles. you can only have craw wurms smash each other for so long.