I have played ledgewalker and cloak since guildpact and has never left my main board. That set up alone is the main reason I win most of my matches. with remove SSG forest for ledgewaker turn 1, land SSG cloak t2, and land cloak turn 3. I have done it many times sadly and it just wins games.
all i can say to this is if it works for you, then more power to ya. i just can't see putting simian spirit guide in this deck. i think if you run silhana in the main then cloak is the way to go, as opposed to stonewood. but i really don't think that ssg deserves a spot in the deck. there are just too many other good, more efficient, cards that could fill that slot.
w/o the ssg, you could still go turn 1 kird ape, turn 2 silhana, turn 3 cloak. and still have all the efficient burn and guys that would take the place of the ssg.
yes, definitely. but just imagine how screwed up they'd be if we also cast hymn. or imagine this god scenario. first turn:
swamp. pitch a pump knight, unmask. they force, saving the combo. they now have 5 cards in hand. tap the swamp, dark rit, duress. remove the flash. hymn removing two somethings at random. their hand now consists of two cards. they just got raped. of course your hand is only one card, but that's ok for you. the odds of drawing into something useful are better for you than is the hulk flash player. you'll hit a land, a dude, or another discard spell before they hit anything of use.
Back to the 5-8th 2 drop debate. What about fitting in Silhana Ledgewalker and Moldervine Cloak a la last season? It would instantly make the Angelfire match up much easier, and it presents a legitimate threat in the mirror as well. If you have a ledgewalker and cloak, you can manage your entire game plan around stalling out the opposing creatures and bashing for four a turn. I think it's worth trying.
the seals are there for creature match ups and the dredge match up. Being able to nug their creatures and your own for cheap is important. I'm thinking of Demonfire simply because it's another trump card against a deck such as Dralnu and Tron, and it can maybe even be suprerior to Rift Bolt in the mirror because it can deal with opposing creatures for cheap. Thoughts?
i will give you the fact that silhana is a house against a lot of decks out there right now, but i don't like cloak in this deck at all. i recommend that you do this:
- 3 moldervine cloak
- 1 silhana ledgewalker
+ 1 stonewood invocation
+ 1 rift bolt
+ 2 scorched rusalka (this chick is good... she can often mean gg)
either that, or take out stonewood in favor of cloak. it's hard to run both in this deck. you need 3 slots at the most reserved for pump. either cloak or stonewood. whichever you prefer. the rest should be either burn or guys. you also might wanna think about moving seals to the main. they are so amazing in this deck. they deserve better than a measly s/b slot.
the more i play the original decklist the more i understand why it is so good. unmask is a house. it is far better to just go the protection from white route and pumping and forget about bob.
sure bob might get you 2 or 3 cards total in the game, but seriously this deck is about aggro and about hand disruption.
when i played bob in the deck, i found out that i only really netted 1 extra card because you want to put them on a faster clock. if you give them 1 or 2 extra turns just to draw out cards then you will most likely lose.
duress followed up by an unmask is incredible. a lot of decks especially combo decks will fold to that type of disruption. no point in turn 2 hymn when you drop out a pumper at this point. and most of the time you ditch the 'worst' pumper for your situation.
i never thought i'd say this after a quote from top deck...
i totally agree. first turn duress, unmask. odds are they play land, say go. and then we go turn 2 pumper. but honestly i think it'd still be worth it play hymn on turn 2 after the first turn discard spells. after disruption like that, we'd probably be free to do as we like for the rest of the game.
that build looks so completely random. and i don't know how well bob would be in a deck like that. i like this build a bit better. i've been testing it some lately and it's not too bad. it got 4th in star city games 1k open.
so far, i've had pretty decent results w/ this build. i haven't gotten to test against everything out there, but this is the best version i've seen so far.
Maybe it's just me, but lightning serpent seems to be a poor version of demonfire. XR casting cost for one shot. Yes, you get +2 on the X spell but you also have a lot more ways to prevent the X spell from getting damage through. Sorry bud, but I agree because Solifuge is re-usable, it is superior.
agreed. lightning serpent really has no place in this deck. there are just better cards all around than a lightning serpent. and honestly, this deck should already not have a problem w/ dropping something every turn.
t1: kird ape, llanowar, rusalka, rift bolt, seal of fire
t2: mauler, hooligan, volcanic hammer (if you run them), any of the above
t3: char, elemental, call, bts, (<-- depending on preference) any of the above
t4: solifuge, call flashback, any of the above
see? there are plenty of choices out there that are better turn x drops than the serpent.
Has anyone considering running any Horizon Canopy? The only problem I see with them is they are not a forest, otherwise they fit right into the deck, especially when we lose Kird Ape
how exactly does a G/W land fit into a G/R deck? it is definitely one of the best future sight duals, but it's certainly not that usable in a g/r deck. if it served as a forest, i'd say the ability alone is worth it, but it's not a forest, and it doesn't produce red.
i wish the call discussion would be settled. as i've said before, it's a personal preference. there are plenty of decks out there that run repeal and that is bad for the call player. agreed. but... call is still a good card. and not every deck you face is gonna have repeal in it. there is a slight chance that a lot of the decks you face are gonna have some sort of mass removal in them. and call rocks against that. don't get me wrong, i'd much rather cast sulf e at eot and then solifuge on mine. swing for 7. but the calls give me more options, and even w/o trample i think a 3/3 beater is pretty good.
in my current build of sui, i don't run fetchlands and i feel like it runs just fine. but if i had them, they'd be in there. and i think they could only help. w/ a deck like this, once you've got enough mana on the table, (usually 4-5 w/ my build, maybe 6-7 w/ all the pump knights) you don't want to see another land. at all. you want to see discard and guys. but if you feel like it's worth testing, then by all means, test away and let us know how it plays w/o the fetch lands. personally i think they can only help any mono colored aggro deck.
and yes, hulk flash did defeat him, but in his defense, he was playing against hulk flash!! this deck wins on turn 1! what's a sui player to do?
nope. my local fnm is free and sometimes there's up to 20 people there. which can be cool, but i'd be happy to drop 5 bucks on entry, go 4 rounds and a top 8, and leave w/ at least half a box and maybe a promo as well. stupid mall card shops...
I won't say much about the other topics mentioned but I like this one.
I think this might actually be a deck where land thinning isn't all that important. Given the amount of things you need mana for: pump creatures, odd effects (ie. activate a Workshop and equip a Jitte/sword on it), and the amount of Stifles seeing play, straight swamps seem like a good choice here.
Wasteland vs. Workshop though... I'm more of a LD person but can definatly see the other side.
Of course, it never hurts to give the fetchs a spin and let us know how it goes...
~Nim
i do agree that w/ the pump knights you need the mana for the pumping. but unless you go to the long game, you're gonna have pretty much the same amount of mana on the board w/ the fetchlands as w/o. and honestly in a deck like this, it's often bad to draw a land. you need to draw threats. not land.
Why do you play FNM for packs? I play for free and for the cards...
i've been playing since before fnm existed. and everytime i've played in a fnm event, there's been packs offered as prize along w/ the foil promos. some places even charge for the event if they're giving out a decent prize to the winner/top 8. that's the way i actually prefer it. the only place i have here to play fnm is in a mall, so we only have time for 3 rounds and no top 8. *bleh*
Not true. Sorry but I have been going to pre-releases for a while now and core sets do have pre-releases. This time around the base set is released just before the 20th of the month, which is when the sets become legal. (if I remember correctly) So the release time this time doesnt allow for there to be much of a pre-time for the release, hence no pre-release so to speak that we are used to. The reasoning is that since there is no new mechanics in a core set (as of to date) they may be released with a shorter time before they are mainstream released and set introduction by WOtC.
well put. i stand corrected. i've just never really heard of a prerelease for core sets. i think a prerelease for Xth woulda made sense tho, as much hype as they're giving it. i can't wait to draft this set! that's gonna be uber fun.
While you do end up running out of gas the idea is to have won by then. Dark Ritual is a perfect example of such. It is pure card disadvantage yet it seems golden here for those brutal starts this deck likes.
totally agree w/ dark rit. i think it's an awesome card for the deck. but it's definitely card disadvantage. but i can remember times when i've opened up w/ swamp, rit, slayer, unholy strength, go. next turn skirge. gg?
of course in today environment w/ these lists dark allows a first turn duress and a guy or duress and a hymn. if you get a first turn duress, hymn unmask... how insane would that be? of course you're opening hand would have to be swamp, rit, duress, hymn, unmask, pitch card, dude/land. and you'd have to draw dude/land, in order to keep up the momentum at all, but that would be an amazing first turn.
unmask honestly is needed because of hulk/flash. hulk flash decks now are primarily counter decks with the combo built in. you need to unmask around counterbalance and other nasties, and then followed up by duress. also unmask can nab a creature (hulk/warchief) whereas duress cant. hymn might be a turn too late versus the current quick meta. odd huh?
you're probably right on that one. i just never really liked unmask. i like that it's technically a 'free' spell, but honestly in sui black there's rarely something i'm willing to pitch to it. but as i said, you're most likely correct. it's kinda sad that forcing your opponent to pitch 2 at random on turn 2 is too slow in today's flash meta. wtf?
also i noticed something else i'd change about the deck... shade. honestly, it's sad but true... it's just not as powerful as the other two pump guys. i think i'd maybe replace him w/ either skirge, slayer, or horror. probably skirge because he can take out an avenger.
then again, maybe we're thinking inside the box. maybe shade is the missing link against gobos and other tier 1 legacy decks. i know he's good, but does he make that big of a difference??
all i can say to this is if it works for you, then more power to ya. i just can't see putting simian spirit guide in this deck. i think if you run silhana in the main then cloak is the way to go, as opposed to stonewood. but i really don't think that ssg deserves a spot in the deck. there are just too many other good, more efficient, cards that could fill that slot.
w/o the ssg, you could still go turn 1 kird ape, turn 2 silhana, turn 3 cloak. and still have all the efficient burn and guys that would take the place of the ssg.
calibretto
swamp. pitch a pump knight, unmask. they force, saving the combo. they now have 5 cards in hand. tap the swamp, dark rit, duress. remove the flash. hymn removing two somethings at random. their hand now consists of two cards. they just got raped. of course your hand is only one card, but that's ok for you. the odds of drawing into something useful are better for you than is the hulk flash player. you'll hit a land, a dude, or another discard spell before they hit anything of use.
calibretto
i will give you the fact that silhana is a house against a lot of decks out there right now, but i don't like cloak in this deck at all. i recommend that you do this:
- 3 moldervine cloak
- 1 silhana ledgewalker
+ 1 stonewood invocation
+ 1 rift bolt
+ 2 scorched rusalka (this chick is good... she can often mean gg)
either that, or take out stonewood in favor of cloak. it's hard to run both in this deck. you need 3 slots at the most reserved for pump. either cloak or stonewood. whichever you prefer. the rest should be either burn or guys. you also might wanna think about moving seals to the main. they are so amazing in this deck. they deserve better than a measly s/b slot.
calibretto
i never thought i'd say this after a quote from top deck...
i totally agree. first turn duress, unmask. odds are they play land, say go. and then we go turn 2 pumper. but honestly i think it'd still be worth it play hymn on turn 2 after the first turn discard spells. after disruption like that, we'd probably be free to do as we like for the rest of the game.
calibretto
here's the link to the list.
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=21581
and for you lazy peoples, here's the list.
4 loxodon hierarch
2 angel of despair
2 teneb, the harvester
1 skeletal vampire
//tech
4 castigate
3 phyrexian arena
3 persecute
2 harmonize
//removal
3 damnation
2 wrath of god
2 mortify
2 sudden death
4 orzhov signet
4 wall of roots
//land
4 godless shrine
4 temple garden
4 forest
3 overgrown tomb
2 vitu-ghazi, the city tree
2 golgari rot farm
2 swamp
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 brushland
4 faith's fetters
3 leyline of the lifeforce
3 seal of primordium
3 extirpate
1 sudden death
1 wrath of god
so far, i've had pretty decent results w/ this build. i haven't gotten to test against everything out there, but this is the best version i've seen so far.
calibretto
agreed. lightning serpent really has no place in this deck. there are just better cards all around than a lightning serpent. and honestly, this deck should already not have a problem w/ dropping something every turn.
t1: kird ape, llanowar, rusalka, rift bolt, seal of fire
t2: mauler, hooligan, volcanic hammer (if you run them), any of the above
t3: char, elemental, call, bts, (<-- depending on preference) any of the above
t4: solifuge, call flashback, any of the above
see? there are plenty of choices out there that are better turn x drops than the serpent.
that's a lot of choices there.
calibretto
how exactly does a G/W land fit into a G/R deck? it is definitely one of the best future sight duals, but it's certainly not that usable in a g/r deck. if it served as a forest, i'd say the ability alone is worth it, but it's not a forest, and it doesn't produce red.
calibretto
calibretto
and yes, hulk flash did defeat him, but in his defense, he was playing against hulk flash!! this deck wins on turn 1! what's a sui player to do?
calibretto
nope. my local fnm is free and sometimes there's up to 20 people there. which can be cool, but i'd be happy to drop 5 bucks on entry, go 4 rounds and a top 8, and leave w/ at least half a box and maybe a promo as well. stupid mall card shops...
calibretto
i do agree that w/ the pump knights you need the mana for the pumping. but unless you go to the long game, you're gonna have pretty much the same amount of mana on the board w/ the fetchlands as w/o. and honestly in a deck like this, it's often bad to draw a land. you need to draw threats. not land.
calibretto
i've been playing since before fnm existed. and everytime i've played in a fnm event, there's been packs offered as prize along w/ the foil promos. some places even charge for the event if they're giving out a decent prize to the winner/top 8. that's the way i actually prefer it. the only place i have here to play fnm is in a mall, so we only have time for 3 rounds and no top 8. *bleh*
calibretto
well put. i stand corrected. i've just never really heard of a prerelease for core sets. i think a prerelease for Xth woulda made sense tho, as much hype as they're giving it. i can't wait to draft this set! that's gonna be uber fun.
calibretto
totally agree w/ dark rit. i think it's an awesome card for the deck. but it's definitely card disadvantage. but i can remember times when i've opened up w/ swamp, rit, slayer, unholy strength, go. next turn skirge. gg?
of course in today environment w/ these lists dark allows a first turn duress and a guy or duress and a hymn. if you get a first turn duress, hymn unmask... how insane would that be? of course you're opening hand would have to be swamp, rit, duress, hymn, unmask, pitch card, dude/land. and you'd have to draw dude/land, in order to keep up the momentum at all, but that would be an amazing first turn.
calibretto
you're probably right on that one. i just never really liked unmask. i like that it's technically a 'free' spell, but honestly in sui black there's rarely something i'm willing to pitch to it. but as i said, you're most likely correct. it's kinda sad that forcing your opponent to pitch 2 at random on turn 2 is too slow in today's flash meta. wtf?
also i noticed something else i'd change about the deck... shade. honestly, it's sad but true... it's just not as powerful as the other two pump guys. i think i'd maybe replace him w/ either skirge, slayer, or horror. probably skirge because he can take out an avenger.
then again, maybe we're thinking inside the box. maybe shade is the missing link against gobos and other tier 1 legacy decks. i know he's good, but does he make that big of a difference??
calibretto